Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD or DSD?
Morgaine <morgaine.dinova@googlemail.com> Wed, 04 May 2011 17:22 UTC
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Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 18:22:50 +0100
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From: Morgaine <morgaine.dinova@googlemail.com>
To: vwrap@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD or DSD?
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On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com> wrote: > On 05/04/2011 09:06 AM, Morgaine wrote: > >> I gather that you don't understand the type model of LLSD + serializations >> then. >> > > That is rude for you to assume that, and also consider that I have an > active implementation. Please, be more serious. > I apologize, I should not have implied that you lack understanding, my bad! Let me rephrase it more precisely. Your responses do not *demonstrate*understanding of the type model of LLSD + serializations. You persist in suggesting that the extensibility of XML can extend the elementary types of LLSD, when it absolutely cannot do that. I am confident that you do understand this, but it hasn't come across yet. I recommend leaving XML out of the discussion, because it's just one out of 3 primary serializations. Leaving it out (for now) will help highlight the non-extensibility of the LLSD elementary data types. > > I know you have realized this much as you tried to promote Icesphere in the > past, yet your political stance changes too often. Such talk doesn't belong > on this list, you could have simply e-mail off list and asked what you don't > understand about what I know. (was that you that sent me private email? > nope, doesn't have "Morgaine" on the sender) On that note: I don't > appreciate how you and others have treated me as the escapegoat! What do you > expect? To send the inventor of XYZ language to school to certify that he > knows XYZ language? > > > I supported Icesphere and SNOW-375 because XML-based REST was useful in LL-derived viewers, today. VWRAP is a very different use case. We need to design VWRAP for the future, not merely to work with the current-day SL and current-day Opensim. > LLSD was specifically stated in source as the high-level like data types > useful at low-level languages: low-level scalar data. Go ahead and assume > LLSD means... you know... what the "reverse engineers" called it. Now that > Mono has LLVM, and Attachment laid of Mono-employees, we can only assume > they didn't want to look at the source of the LL version. Maybe its better > hands now, and less need to re-standardize and re-implement the CIL > libraries that Microsoft already distributes. > > It's helpful to read the source, yet due to much anxiety-induced fears of > that alone your argument is endless and redundant to reinvent generics when > that is already done. > > > I have no idea what any of that means. > > >> Your answers simply don't address the non-extensibility and >> non-flexibility of elementary types. The XML tail cannot wag the ADT dog. >> The relationship is the other way around, it's the ADT that defines the >> elementary types, which are transported in all serializations. >> > > I have, you just avoid the demonstrated flow and source for some reason. > ADTs still have to stream in ordinary ways to flow. > > > I don't know what you mean here. It doesn't seem related to ADT types. > >> You keep referring to the flexibility of XML, but that is irrelevant to >> the ADT. >> > > > You obviously want to avoid XML, despite the very implementation is based > on plain text headers and XML data. I'm not even gonna ask why you avoid > this over and over. Can you answer the question about region-agent > transistion and if SLTP is viable, or do you want to continue to send any > abstract data over clear text? > > > No I do not want to avoid XML, quite the opposite. XML is one of the 3 initial serializations of LLSD and it's perfectly fine for that, and I expect XML to be used a lot over HTTP transport. But you cannot extend the elementary types of the ADT by extending your XML. That's the "XML tail wagging the ADT dog" to which I referred --- it doesn't work that way. If you want extensible and/or flexible elementary types, the ADT has to be defined to allow them, because those get serialized in all 3 (or more) serializations, not just in XML. It's a really fundamental aspect of the ADT that it defines our types independent of its serializations. It's a useful concept, but the problem with this particular one -- LLSD (DSD?) -- is that the elementary types are neither flexible nor extensible. Morgaine.
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD or … Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] is the group still interested in LLSD… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] ADT? is the group still interested in… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] ADT? is the group still interested in… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Joshua Bell
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dahlia Trimble
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Meadhbh Hamrick
- [vwrap] Python integer types (was: The <embed> ta… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Meadhbh Hamrick
- [vwrap] Python integer types, again (was: The <em… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Python integer types (was: The <embed… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Python integer types, again (was: The… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Robert G. Jakabosky
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] The <embed> tag... is the group still… Dzonatas Sol