Re: [vwrap] Call for a vote on interop BETWEEN independent virtual worlds or not

[Meadhbh Hamrick <[e-mail]>]

jonathan,

there was some discussion about dropping the use cases last year.

we can't simply say "this protocol is for OpenSim or Second Life"
because that would mean that any time those implementations change,
the scope of the protocol changes along with it.

so we came up with the idea of documenting those aspects of the type
of virtual world we were interested in so we would have bounds for our
protocol discussions. we wanted to focus on a relatively small set of
use cases and in david's words, "boil the ocean one thimbleful at a
time."

the list of virtual world features the group wanted to support turned
into the "deployment patterns" draft, portions of which got integrated
into the intro.

-cheers
-meadhbh

--
meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve"
@OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * [e-mail]



On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Jonathan Freedman
<[e-mail]> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> From what I can tell the drafts do support interoperability between the same
> *class* of virtual world. The catch is that the language needs to be
> significantly clearer. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the
> introduction document should drop all references to use cases, focus on
> describing the context (sandbox virtual worlds) and then be merged with the
> foundation document.
> I have approached editing the Intro document several times and it always
> ended in despair. I believe the only rational way to move forward is to
> integrate it into the Foundation document as a simple overview of the
> context and proceed from there. If others support this direction, I would
> be honoured to proceed with the first cut of such a merge.
> I do want to state that interoperability between the *same class* of virtual
> worlds seems like the proper end goal. The language needs to be unambiguous
> and there is no point in distracting the consumer (of the ID)  with
> discussions of use cases. Use cases, deployment strategies and the like
> should be left up to interpretation. The formal documentation needs to focus
> on the protocol rather than implementation.
> Regards,
> Jonathan Freedman
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Morgaine <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Mike Dickson <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Put another way we're not specifying a mechanism for interconnection
>> between very different technologies (or more appropriately approaches to
>> virtual worlds).
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, no Mike, it's much worse than that.  Even if the
>> technologies of the worlds in question are not only compatible but
>> IDENTICAL, Meadhbh claims that we are not creating a protocol for interop
>> BETWEEN those worlds.  At all, whatsoever.
>>
>> This cannot be allowed to stand, otherwise the entire purpose of VWRAP as
>> an interop protocol disappears, and instead VWRAP becomes a protocol for
>> building standalone, isolated worlds.  That is not what we're here for, and
>> it has never been --- we have affirmed the goal of interoperation between
>> VWs time and again on this list, repeatedly.
>>
>> This issue needs to be cleared up without ambiguity.  We can't have a
>> prolific draft writer writing drafts that do not reflect the goals voiced by
>> almost everyone in this group since OGPX/VWRAP began.  Crista's post is
>> merely the latest expression of concern of many.
>>
>> There is a clear disconnect here between the goal of non-interoperating
>> worlds, and the much more useful goal of VW interoperation that virtually
>> everyone else has been discussing and desiring.  We already have
>> non-interoperating worlds, lots of them!  Note that even Joshua mentions
>> interoperation of VWs in his latest post a few weeks ago, in which he
>> welcomed discussion of "protocols for data transport between virtual world
>> instances" --
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/msg00253.html .
>>
>> This needs resolving formally, otherwise our progress on resolving the
>> issues of VW interop is completely blocked.
>>
>>
>> Morgaine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ================================
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Mike Dickson <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09/19/2010 10:41 PM, Morgaine wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Meadhbh Hamrick <[e-mail]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> secondly, VWRAP is not now, nor has it ever been a protocol to enable
>>> interoperability BETWEEN virtual worlds.
>>> ...
>>> in short, the consensus of this group has generally been to describe
>>> the mechanisms one could use to build a single virtual world but does
>>> not dictate that this world be a singleton.
>>>
>>>
>>> This does not reflect any consensus expressed in this group whatsoever.
>>>
>>> I suspect we're getting wrapped around the axle on terminology and what
>>> "single virtual world" means.  At least I'd like to interpret it that way as
>>> it then matches the discussion over the past months.  Put another way we're
>>> not specifying a mechanism for interconnection between very different
>>> technologies (or more appropriately approaches to virtual worlds).  It's a
>>> single virtual world because it shares a single set of assumptions about how
>>> the services that make it up work together to provide services.  If I change
>>> in a significant way a service that doesn't match what VWRAP documents then
>>> I'm not able to participate in the VWRAP virtual world any longer.
>>>
>>> The comment about a singleton is on target I think with this
>>> interpretation.  I can create a walled garden that doesn't interconnect with
>>> other "services".  It's using VWRAP and so a part of the VWRAP "Virtual
>>> World".
>>>
>>> If thats not a correct interpretation then yes we have a huge issue.  If
>>> it is correct then perhaps we need to refine how we define terms since its
>>> caused alot of confusion.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Freedman
> President
> Open Metaverse Foundation
> [phone]
>
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