Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> Sun, 27 March 2011 21:16 UTC
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Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 23:17:57 +0200
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From: Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com>
To: Carlo Wood <carlo@alinoe.com>
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Cc: "<vwrap@ietf.org>" <vwrap@ietf.org>, Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Subject: Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
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Done -- (at least the very first step). On 3/27/11, Vaughn Deluca <vaughn.deluca@gmail.com> wrote: > Great!, thanks a lot for the constructive input! > > I disagree however that this "won't lead to any document any time > soon" It depends on the definition of "document" I might be a while > before it produces an RFC, but I certainly would call the glossary, > wiki pages documenting group consensus, and Definitions "documents". > > I like the wiki idea, (something along those lines was suggested by > Morgaine also). I just requested a password, and it seems i can edit > the Wiki :) I will put up a VWRAP glossary page later today. > > On 3/27/11, Carlo Wood <carlo@alinoe.com> wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 10:43:49PM +0100, Vaughn Deluca wrote: >>> problem we have is a lack of critical mass, and in particular input >>> from people that have the needed technical background. And clearly >>> you are one of those that we need badly. >> >> The way I'd like to move forward is anything but producing >> documents fast however; and that seems to be the requirement. >> >> If you want input from me regarding the survival of this group; >> I'd create a wiki that everyone who requests it can edit. >> The first and most important part of that wiki would be a glossary >> with every word that is frequently used in the discussions. >> That list of words should be complete rather quickly, then >> people can add their definitions to it. If two people have >> different definitions then those definitions should be signed; >> Once, for a particular word, everyone has added the definitions >> and/or remarks to the wiki (all on one page per word), we can >> start a discussion on this list on how to reformulize and change >> the definition of that word. Some might have to change their >> semantics, but in the end the goal would be that every word >> has one defintion, used and understood by everyone -- and >> clearly documented on the wiki, with discussion history as >> usual. If a discussion gets completely stuck on semantics, >> then people can just sign (put their name under) the definition >> the want and we'd just count the signatures and pick one. >> After all, it's just semantics and has nothing to do with what >> the protocol REALLY will do. >> >> Only then, we can take the next step; for which I'd also >> use the wiki. >> >> Also, as I wrote in old posts before... I am still CONVINCED that >> we can impossibly create a protocol that will address everything >> that will be needed in the future. All we can do is create something >> that is a good starting point and FOCUS on flexibility: create >> a protocol that can evolve. In order to do that, we need (further >> completely protocol neutral) protocol negotiation for every p2p >> link that is created in the process, which allows such evolution. >> >> The use of XML as basis for a protocol would mean the following: >> 1) It takes overhead, so it's not possible to use it for >> highbandwidth usage (ie video, or file transfers). But it could >> do at out-of-band control channel. >> 2) If it's pure XML than we won't have to worry about the >> implementation of serializing/deserializing as much, although >> that only really has it's advantages when we will need VWRAP >> to work for implementations in multiple programming languages >> before it gets accepted widely. As far as I can see, we will >> need C# and C++, and most likely C for religious reasons. >> 3) The ONLY benefit that XML has (on top of existing serialization >> libraries) is that it is extensible: You can add new parameters >> without confusing old code that doesn't expect it. >> >> Point 3, however, is just a weak attempt to be flexible. Imho, >> it is by far not flexible enough. We'd still need a well defined >> way for the evolving protocol negotiation, and once that is in >> place, we won't really need this feature of XML anymore. >> >> Thus, provided we add "evolving protocol negotiation", we should >> probably choose the serialization/deserialization method based on >> grounds that I can't judge at this point in the design. >> >> So for the near future: >> - Glossary and agreement on definitions of used jargon. >> - Abstract agreement on the use of an evolving protocol. >> - Definition of all possible p2p connection for which serialization is >> necessary. >> - Choice of what serialization mechanism is used where. >> - Abstract discussion (and agreement) of the use of Abelian operators >> for distributed states and identity authorities (see another >> old post from me). If we don't do that before anything else, >> we'd just shoot ourself in the foot. >> - etc >> >> This is no doubt the work of years, and won't lead to any document >> any time soon. >> >> -- >> Carlo Wood <carlo@alinoe.com> >> >
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Katherine Mancuso
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Mark Bannon
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… peter host
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Lawson English
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- [vwrap] Relevant panel at the IEFT: the role of s… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Nexii Malthus
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… mysticaldemina
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick