Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com> Mon, 28 March 2011 23:11 UTC
Return-Path: <dzonatas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: vwrap@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: vwrap@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B4A28C0E7 for <vwrap@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:11:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_11=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rD8icTjGE9l9 for <vwrap@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FE33A6A96 for <vwrap@ietf.org>; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by iwn39 with SMTP id 39so4151438iwn.31 for <vwrap@ietf.org>; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=49BZvU0t5rA50wD0KAUUMduZwxHgDZA69QY+777RpTs=; b=qgwu+lc0UNBXouM1DLIGZPxdZyE53BDyqitRFleZoTcNRfvKnBGDfmiOZFQkc+Hxqn k9LSv1An5pLcsQy3nrx1hm5AawQPa3bbZVKNeNhNhU743jW77unluNTDnmgbf5V2oNGd tXdx5Rrtt0hu3JDKeFUX0/ond9DR4Uz/rl1g8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZYmRvm9A6ge7KyJ81OfAwIEmUF+32lwu8SL50dbtSDP1rWyG0rUBiku6uR1RaV0upx oiqveKs/US8U56UkJlZp91kudHOiHQbvyd201INqBC7IICi+V/lYnRev6HiPtODS0u9E Hxnj+1pHTv2XXpcC4xeoij701Hy84GohUiCmE=
Received: by 10.43.58.14 with SMTP id wi14mr7585008icb.396.1301354006446; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.0.50] (adsl-71-137-195-251.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [71.137.195.251]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gy41sm3223298ibb.56.2011.03.28.16.13.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <4D911618.7060706@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:13:28 -0700
From: Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100329)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim=tpngqs8gt=sjCeOQgtUATVRXXKe11qUaNJFw@mail.gmail.com> <BLU159-ds1192252375D420BE8C7C9EDCB90@phx.gbl> <956AEC85-F919-4C64-96BA-277B620CAB18@gmail.com> <AANLkTimLHwMb9u5Ok-44-JgHaL_EydeSHyHUQybvNpMp@mail.gmail.com> <20110326135320.GC29908@alinoe.com> <AANLkTin=9a35pzm9QkGt6v5PgWAgsqomkYCBG8eSa4Xg@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinp2+skkPP0L1sWtTn1-OU=Q6_YXk_W1+QdL-8Q@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTin25vWxk9Wd1U3ne_4DedU4Cz5JhMHTzt9gDyfA@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimM=ERx_WctgAzHhgm_GE_cVYM0j6FXp6xMthds@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=aghMKoOusjwbC7wyh=kzZwEY7a3_VCiw93ZYB@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=aghMKoOusjwbC7wyh=kzZwEY7a3_VCiw93ZYB@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: vwrap@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working group
X-BeenThere: vwrap@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Virtual World Region Agent Protocol - IETF working group <vwrap.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap>, <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap>
List-Post: <mailto:vwrap@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap>, <mailto:vwrap-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:11:52 -0000
If you want service only, I think there is code implemented already. We need the ability for people to own their assets on their own local site (and further simulate them with their own local simulator, for like opening inventory in looking at the puzzle pieces). There has been much debate about client/server and exactly what that means. Given that even X11 defines client/server backwords from the VWinterop concept now, it is a hard battle to people's mind to bend one way or another in terminology. I think the progress to define multi-point on either client or service side was finally a start to see the bigger picture easier. Being able to start up separate client side programs is at issue that breaks away from the monolithic design. There are some that want to stay with the monolithic design purely for revenue reasons. I need not mention whom. This causes the main bottleneck from the client-side developer. If we define server side in such way, and let server-side people "ban" client-side developers because it doesn't fit their motif, then there is no equality in vote in this working group. I hope we can remedy at least this in any "interoperation". I think it would be easiest to consider the DAE (collada) format as an example. Allow one client to start up (point A), and allow another client to start up (point B), and allows these to clients to contant an agent domain to transfer DAE files back and forth between inventory without any region simulators. This A<->B path needs to be in the "service level interoperability". This may seem like simple file transfer, so be it. Meadhbh Hamrick wrote: > in other words, what does "interoperation between virtual worlds" mean? > > the "service level interoperability" was sufficiently defined such > that i could (and did) go out and write code to demonstrably implement > the specification. does the term "interoperation between virtual > worlds" mean: > > a. interoperability between any two existing virtual world or MMO > systems? (i.e. - between second life and world of warcraft?) > > b. interoperability between second life, second life / enterprise or > OpenSIm instances? > > or > > c. interoperability between two OpenSim instances? > > if a or b, do we have any interest from any of the implementers of > those systems to adhere to an IETF standard? > > -cheers > -meadhbh > > -- > meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve" > @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh@gmail.com > > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Morgaine > <morgaine.dinova@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> The group's expectation of direction was already manifest at the time of >> Crista's intervention a few months ago, at which time it was unanimous that >> everybody except one person was seeking interoperation between virtual >> worlds as a primary requirement and as a key motivation for the group's >> work. >> >> The dissenting opinion was clearly, if unofficially, outvoted by <count of >> group members> to 1.� If that direction is STILL not accepted by everyone in >> the WG, I shall ask Barry to formally call a count of votes and establish >> the rough consensus officially.� Without this we will be perpetually >> disrupted by a non-representative minority pulling in the opposite direction >> to the rest of the group. >> >> >> Morgaine. >> >> >> >> >> ======================== >> >> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick <ohmeadhbh@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Um. Morgaine. You don't get to define the wg's expectation or direction. >>> As a member of this wg (and someone who's actually written code related to >>> it's problem domain) I would like to be included in the development of this >>> group's consensus. >>> >>> On Mar 28, 2011 8:29 AM, "Morgaine" <morgaine.dinova@googlemail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Barry, is there IETF precedent for a WG that has undergone this particular >>> train of events, namely a major disconnect between its originators' >>> intentions and the WG's expectations of direction? >>> >>> If so, our situation may be slightly easier to handle, since the >>> originators have withdrawn from pressing their case and there appears to be >>> almost no actual dispute remaining in the group.� Procedurally though, I >>> really don't know where we stand from the IETF's perspective.� We seem to >>> have a common goal now, but if the IETF demands paperwork, we're not there >>> yet because the designs and plans have not been worked out.� I'm hoping for >>> flexibility, but acknowledge that flexibility has a limit. >>> >>> That said, reading the IETF Mission Statement leaves no doubt that VW >>> interoperability is right in the middle of the road for the IETF.� Can the >>> group be left to work out what needs to be worked out? >>> >>> >>> Morgaine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ================================= >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Carlo, Vaugh... >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> vwrap mailing list >>> vwrap@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> vwrap mailing list >> vwrap@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > vwrap mailing list > vwrap@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Katherine Mancuso
- [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP working gr… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Mark Bannon
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… peter host
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Lawson English
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- [vwrap] Relevant panel at the IEFT: the role of s… Cristina Videira Lopes
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Nexii Malthus
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Patnad Babii
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… mysticaldemina
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Carlo Wood
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Fleep Tuque
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Vaughn Deluca
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Boroondas Gupte
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Izzy Alanis
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Barry Leiba
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Morgaine
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Status and future of the VWRAP workin… Meadhbh Hamrick