Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission

Jane Coffin <jane@connecthumanity.fund> Tue, 16 May 2023 19:18 UTC

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From: Jane Coffin <jane@connecthumanity.fund>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 15:18:42 -0400
Message-ID: <CAAk_8j3bX4x8N546XbqcSCz0st4C7pg+H_zwHPRs4Q3HurS3sw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission
To: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
Cc: Mallory Knodel <mknodel=40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>, Working Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, Internet Research Steering Group <irsg@irtf.org>
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Many thanks, Niels.

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 2:42 PM Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
wrote:

> Hi Jane,
>
> I checked with the excellent Olia Kanevskaia and she confirmed what I
> said: EU can only refer to harmonized standards because it presumes
> compliance with EU directives and regulations.
>
> This is also why CEN/CENELEC is now playing a role in the new draft AI
> regulation (even though some academics argue this will not hold up because
> of inherent democratic deficits [0]).
>
> Best,
>
> Niels
>
>
> [0] See for instance para 52-57
> https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=526026122121112015065079030079002004021019084010061003029097008119085101094126103098117019034042056022028000080068074000030123105078049036082098020111006082021085011024058017110080086095027094117113097001118001069071065103108101124116068023026122020020&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE
>
> Veale, Michael, and Frederik Zuiderveen Borgesius. 2021. “Demystifying the
> Draft EU Artificial Intelligence Act—Analysing the Good, the Bad, and the
> Unclear Elements of the Proposed Approach.” Computer Law Review
> International 22 (4): 97–112.
>
> On 16-05-2023 18:32, Jane Coffin wrote:
> > Hi Niels -
> >
> > I had an inkling it was something like this as a UK colleague was quite
> clear that the UK carefully went out of its way to include IETF vis-a-vis
> standards.
> > Let me find out more re that.
> >
> > It would be great if you could ask your legal colleagues re this.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jane
> >
> > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 12:28 PM Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net
> <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi Jane,
> >
> >     As far as I know, in its legislation the European Union (EU) can
> only refer to 'harmonised standards'. A harmonised standard is a European
> standard developed by a recognised European Standards Organisation: CEN,
> CENELEC, or ETSI. This is why, for instance, CEN adopts ISO standards in
> Europe, through the prefix “EN ISO” (see also Vienna Agreement). So it are
> just CEN, CENELEC and ETSI standards that are commonly referred to in
> European legislation and policies.
> >
> >     Through CEN, CENELEC, and ETSI international standards also often
> get translated to national standards bodies (NSBs)(but sometimes they also
> get translated directly from ISO/IEC to NSBs). Then countries can refer to
> it in national legislation as well in my understanding.
> >
> >     But I can ask my law colleagues to verify.
> >
> >     Best,
> >
> >     Niels
> >
> >
> >
> >     On 16-05-2023 17:39, Jane Coffin wrote:
> >      > All -
> >      >
> >      > Some countries - like Armenia (or at least in 2006) -- indicated
> in the Telecoms Law that ITU standards were part of their national
> standards fabric.  Whether they actually put this into practice is a
> separate issue (they definitely did on spectrum - Radio Regs - Treaty).
> >      > I think the UK (when part of the EC) had to amend some of its
> laws (or codes, procedures, you get the point) to include standards other
> than ISO, ITU, and specifically include IETF protocols/standards.
> >      >
> >      > Does the EC officially accept IETF standards in their roster of
> standards?
> >      > Did some EC countries have to specifically change
> laws/codes/other/other to include IETF standards outside of any EC
> processes?
> >      >
> >      > I ask this Q as it might be helpful to know at least whether the
> EC officially accepts IETF standards, and this flows down to all EC
> members?  I use the word "accept" as a placeholder for "include by
> reference in leg, incorporate by ref, other, other appropriate term".
> >      >
> >      > Jane
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:05 AM Mallory Knodel <mknodel=
> 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org> <mailto:
> 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     Others will have more context, likely, but I've engaged with
> this content rather extensively and it largely focusses on
> national/regional standards efforts, not international bodies like the
> IETF, though it does make mention and understand rather well, in my view,
> the relationship between different actors.
> >      >
> >      >     -Mallory
> >      >
> >      >     On 5/16/23 8:59 AM, Rifaat Shekh-Yusef wrote:
> >      >>     Hi,
> >      >>
> >      >>     Anyone aware of any relationship between the IETF and
> the European Commission ICT initiative?
> >      >>     European Multi-Stakeholder Platform on ICT Standardisation |
> Shaping Europe’s digital future (europa.eu <http://europa.eu>) <
> https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation
> <
> https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation
> >>
> >      >>
> >      >>     Regards,
> >      >>      Rifaat
> >      >>
> >      >     --
> >      >     Mallory Knodel
> >      >     CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
> >      >     gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271
> BD3C C780
> >      >
> >
> >     --
> >     Niels ten Oever, PhD
> >     Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab - University
> of Amsterdam
> >     Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies - University of
> Amsterdam
> >
> >     W: https://criticalinfralab.net <https://criticalinfralab.net>
> >     W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> >     PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> >
>
> --
> Niels ten Oever, PhD
> Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab - University of
> Amsterdam
> Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies - University of
> Amsterdam
>
> W: https://criticalinfralab.net
> W: https://nielstenoever.net
> PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>