RE: IETF meat grinder
Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com> Tue, 04 October 2022 17:31 UTC
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From: Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com>
To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "wgchairs@ietf.org" <wgchairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: IETF meat grinder
Thread-Topic: IETF meat grinder
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 17:31:36 +0000
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Honestly, the IETF procedural stuff is arcane, especially in the post-WG Last Call area, and there are plenty of potential improvements to be made, but on balance, it’s not that bad. Maybe that’s just my experience dealing with far worse in other groups talking. I do think documentation of the processes and procedures that don’t read like an IETF RFC, bristling with unnecessary technical complexity, would be extraordinarily invaluable to new and existing participants. There are plenty of fun ratholes to dive down and explore, but most of them aren’t relevant to most RFCs or WGs, and they’re much easier and safer to explore with a well-documented, high-level map of the simple, happy path. The MLS maps are awesome. -Tim From: WGChairs <wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Richard Barnes Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 9:42 AM To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> Cc: Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: IETF meat grinder On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 7:31 AM Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca>> wrote: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx<mailto:rlb@ipv.sx>> wrote: > In the MLS WG, which is similarly 95% not habitual IETF offenders, we have > proceeded mainly by doing work in the style the folks doing the work are > used to doing, and accommodating the IETF to the degree necessary. Yes, so that exactly the situation. We have a small group, and we are working in the way that they are habituated, but I expect that there is an audience of tourists who are not github or IETF people. To be clear, I didn't mean "use github" -- I would advise using whatever tools make your group effective. > Your subject line, "IETF meat grinder" seems like the wrong approach -- we > as insiders should not be subjecting/inuring newcomers to the process, we > should be making it easy to participate while meeting the IETF's goals of > transparency / consensus / etc. Uhm, so my goal is to explain the parts of the process which are IETF things, and which parts are github things. it's an allusion to seeing how the sausage is made, not about grinding people, btw. Thanks for that clarification! I definitely understood it as the latter. Maybe tells you something about how I feel about IETF processes :) TBH, I don't think the official IETF process docs say all that much prescriptively about how WGs have to work, so I think you have a pretty free hand there, as long as you can ultimately demonstrate consensus, and that there was openness and transparency in the process. The final approval steps are the main thing. For that, the MLS chairs have a handy map + "You are here" marker, see, e.g.: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/114/materials/slides-114-mls-chairs-slides-00.pdf
- IETF meat grinder Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF meat grinder Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF meat grinder Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF meat grinder Richard Barnes
- Re: IETF meat grinder Richard Barnes
- Re: IETF meat grinder Michael Richardson
- RE: IETF meat grinder Tim Hollebeek
- Re: IETF meat grinder Michael Richardson
- RE: IETF meat grinder Tim Hollebeek
- Re: [irsg] IETF meat grinder Carsten Bormann
- Re: [irsg] IETF meat grinder Michael Richardson