From nobody Thu Sep 16 00:46:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DA3A1D25; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=vpjqWIRY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XrFzs6Ro Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6EOQTxFh-8f; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3333A1D22; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7531C5C0038; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=0 rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8NI=; b=vpjqWIRYcY2Rblw5/ iz0TYwsmIyretKuZQePrli7l6jab0DmobVpNrNEpzOr7Fd3UCe+KQk8mwanCeOzJ HjE90SBcngkZiLR3rUqD6b77Iu6OAtVmObhYC82MTqdWULxnv32i8mDRH2YfnCb9 Gq/3kPu4Z/TG2WOUtDyuH03N9LfiZXo5oo0eddLAfl1Usy+LxJ3ejbbAAPD0uUoo 6tXiZ7LFmfsPxYo7GskZE3Ztd4dJK4uapwd5uk34ho/BbZu8GNJMFnLTRwzkjwEx oelUOw911w1BHhjK5nZJ7q0ZYgAso2pOtlGagx+3KABNOivFx1yZD5r10LJPz4+K RRjPw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=0rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8 NI=; b=XrFzs6RoiphwEIvehWUxVlqt0dso3Kcf1Hk+QRVhC/dx6x5xbkAQIR0Si Oz6D8KEAd5QLZ8eCuEIdRXbwWzpY0VA7GP6IQ0PMYY4WvDYflozPX9tDzZz+7SZg d8tC7w6jiIcYh5SghXQgX2FOQPSwiDJf2BYJ2eWYXDfTXkqGKZKNUaWhnBhLFruy KgNWQLUBtkEGC0fZeqLNKqtU5ufCTZcPrRhFW95VPEXM0zhuI710CVzZ5/lkFaqR RRNtBoZTHPafUyHnIe/kBttFfETAbnRFVQDWqzE0v1BJWfZFokhrNeiy21UW9Jmf LeeqgXzJrAmtfm++pu8aaESLuXJrA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehfedguddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepfeegvdfgjeegvdetuedukeevfefhheelieevjeejkefhffehkeejieekjedt heejnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdr nhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:46:00 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> References: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:46:17 -0000 Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Robert, >>=20 >> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from this = message=E2=80=A6 >=20 > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. > (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >=20 > Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. > Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away in = some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queries = of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This = already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >=20 > Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >=20 > (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. > But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/