Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission

Jane Coffin <jane@connecthumanity.fund> Wed, 17 May 2023 01:21 UTC

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From: Jane Coffin <jane@connecthumanity.fund>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 21:21:29 -0400
Message-ID: <CAAk_8j0_oZWS96oKAsyYHZJNCCuy2G_RETHrvuvFpmyb_d3axA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, Working Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, Mallory Knodel <mknodel=40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
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There is that

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> Should one start to wonder how it can be that the EU relies likely almost
> solely on
> IETF/TCP protocols for their own networks, if not for all the users and
> industries in the EU ? How does that with with harmonization requirements ?
>
> ---
> Toerless
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 03:18:42PM -0400, Jane Coffin wrote:
> > Many thanks, Niels.
> >
> > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 2:42 PM Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Jane,
> > >
> > > I checked with the excellent Olia Kanevskaia and she confirmed what I
> > > said: EU can only refer to harmonized standards because it presumes
> > > compliance with EU directives and regulations.
> > >
> > > This is also why CEN/CENELEC is now playing a role in the new draft AI
> > > regulation (even though some academics argue this will not hold up
> because
> > > of inherent democratic deficits [0]).
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Niels
> > >
> > >
> > > [0] See for instance para 52-57
> > >
> https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=526026122121112015065079030079002004021019084010061003029097008119085101094126103098117019034042056022028000080068074000030123105078049036082098020111006082021085011024058017110080086095027094117113097001118001069071065103108101124116068023026122020020&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE
> > >
> > > Veale, Michael, and Frederik Zuiderveen Borgesius. 2021. “Demystifying
> the
> > > Draft EU Artificial Intelligence Act—Analysing the Good, the Bad, and
> the
> > > Unclear Elements of the Proposed Approach.” Computer Law Review
> > > International 22 (4): 97–112.
> > >
> > > On 16-05-2023 18:32, Jane Coffin wrote:
> > > > Hi Niels -
> > > >
> > > > I had an inkling it was something like this as a UK colleague was
> quite
> > > clear that the UK carefully went out of its way to include IETF
> vis-a-vis
> > > standards.
> > > > Let me find out more re that.
> > > >
> > > > It would be great if you could ask your legal colleagues re this.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Jane
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 12:28 PM Niels ten Oever <
> mail@nielstenoever.net
> > > <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >     Hi Jane,
> > > >
> > > >     As far as I know, in its legislation the European Union (EU) can
> > > only refer to 'harmonised standards'. A harmonised standard is a
> European
> > > standard developed by a recognised European Standards Organisation:
> CEN,
> > > CENELEC, or ETSI. This is why, for instance, CEN adopts ISO standards
> in
> > > Europe, through the prefix “EN ISO” (see also Vienna Agreement). So it
> are
> > > just CEN, CENELEC and ETSI standards that are commonly referred to in
> > > European legislation and policies.
> > > >
> > > >     Through CEN, CENELEC, and ETSI international standards also often
> > > get translated to national standards bodies (NSBs)(but sometimes they
> also
> > > get translated directly from ISO/IEC to NSBs). Then countries can
> refer to
> > > it in national legislation as well in my understanding.
> > > >
> > > >     But I can ask my law colleagues to verify.
> > > >
> > > >     Best,
> > > >
> > > >     Niels
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     On 16-05-2023 17:39, Jane Coffin wrote:
> > > >      > All -
> > > >      >
> > > >      > Some countries - like Armenia (or at least in 2006) --
> indicated
> > > in the Telecoms Law that ITU standards were part of their national
> > > standards fabric.  Whether they actually put this into practice is a
> > > separate issue (they definitely did on spectrum - Radio Regs - Treaty).
> > > >      > I think the UK (when part of the EC) had to amend some of its
> > > laws (or codes, procedures, you get the point) to include standards
> other
> > > than ISO, ITU, and specifically include IETF protocols/standards.
> > > >      >
> > > >      > Does the EC officially accept IETF standards in their roster
> of
> > > standards?
> > > >      > Did some EC countries have to specifically change
> > > laws/codes/other/other to include IETF standards outside of any EC
> > > processes?
> > > >      >
> > > >      > I ask this Q as it might be helpful to know at least whether
> the
> > > EC officially accepts IETF standards, and this flows down to all EC
> > > members?  I use the word "accept" as a placeholder for "include by
> > > reference in leg, incorporate by ref, other, other appropriate term".
> > > >      >
> > > >      > Jane
> > > >      >
> > > >      >
> > > >      >
> > > >      >
> > > >      >
> > > >      > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:05 AM Mallory Knodel <mknodel=
> > > 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org> <mailto:
> > > 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>>> wrote:
> > > >      >
> > > >      >     Others will have more context, likely, but I've engaged
> with
> > > this content rather extensively and it largely focusses on
> > > national/regional standards efforts, not international bodies like the
> > > IETF, though it does make mention and understand rather well, in my
> view,
> > > the relationship between different actors.
> > > >      >
> > > >      >     -Mallory
> > > >      >
> > > >      >     On 5/16/23 8:59 AM, Rifaat Shekh-Yusef wrote:
> > > >      >>     Hi,
> > > >      >>
> > > >      >>     Anyone aware of any relationship between the IETF and
> > > the European Commission ICT initiative?
> > > >      >>     European Multi-Stakeholder Platform on ICT
> Standardisation |
> > > Shaping Europe’s digital future (europa.eu <http://europa.eu>) <
> > >
> https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation
> > > <
> > >
> https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation
> > > >>
> > > >      >>
> > > >      >>     Regards,
> > > >      >>      Rifaat
> > > >      >>
> > > >      >     --
> > > >      >     Mallory Knodel
> > > >      >     CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
> > > >      >     gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271
> > > BD3C C780
> > > >      >
> > > >
> > > >     --
> > > >     Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > > >     Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab -
> University
> > > of Amsterdam
> > > >     Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies -
> University of
> > > Amsterdam
> > > >
> > > >     W: https://criticalinfralab.net <https://criticalinfralab.net>
> > > >     W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> > > >     PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > > Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab - University of
> > > Amsterdam
> > > Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies - University of
> > > Amsterdam
> > >
> > > W: https://criticalinfralab.net
> > > W: https://nielstenoever.net
> > > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> > >
>
> --
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de
>