Matt/Andrei/*: Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Wed, 17 May 2023 17:39 UTC

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Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 19:39:09 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, ford@isoc.org, robachevsky@isoc.org
Cc: Benno Overeinder <benno@nlnetlabs.nl>, Jane Coffin <jane@connecthumanity.fund>, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, Mallory Knodel <mknodel=40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Matt/Andrei/*: Re: [irsg] IETF and European Commission
Message-ID: <ZGURPQiAOJefMAXc@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <372d7a6d-0a6d-7f92-a10e-fb52bacde80d@cdt.org> <CAAk_8j0O1yzKo7wPdKadMccDsY2optYXOkTeJjgpm0s=FuDZCg@mail.gmail.com> <8c19c1a2-a20a-4901-cddd-48e33998396c@nielstenoever.net> <CAAk_8j02Ytz4wfb2SHRMbqMX=-mtim_wuWnGBbXhKPSHibquvA@mail.gmail.com> <9a9ba038-4384-dfe2-72f0-6d1f5c7f5fa4@nielstenoever.net> <CAAk_8j3bX4x8N546XbqcSCz0st4C7pg+H_zwHPRs4Q3HurS3sw@mail.gmail.com> <ZGQbaxoZ5XEJy8G3@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CAAk_8j0_oZWS96oKAsyYHZJNCCuy2G_RETHrvuvFpmyb_d3axA@mail.gmail.com> <9b05c310-b4e5-c174-8c27-10cc2fc74050@NLnetLabs.nl> <F4B437D0-AC9A-402E-8CB1-DC8260D4B236@cooperw.in>
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Alissa: Thanks!

Matt, Andrei:

There was/is a discussion relating to your work re. EU on the IETF wgchairs mailing
list, which you can not subscribe to, but which anyone can read with their favorite 
IMAP tools or on the web: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/wgchairs/

The suggestion was made to move this discuss to the open architecture-discuss mailing list,
which i am hereby doing.

Comments:
a) The work you're doing via [1] looks quite comprehensive, so maybe that would be even
a better topic for some form of side meeting at IETF117, if people there are interested/have
questions (or as topic in any fitting other meeting slot...not sure which though).

b) The archive URLs in [1] (older Rolling Plans) do not work, neither with trac.tools.ietf.org,
   nor with www.ietf.org.  Pls. check, most likely they where moved to different URLs on the
   new wiki.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 09:31:43AM -0700, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> Also, I thought one of the core functions of the EU MSP on ICTs was to use the rolling plan [0] to identify standards produced outside the three European standardization organizations that are relevant to key technology areas, providing a consolidated view for decision makers in national governments and other authorities who may want to reference them in RFPs and other instruments if not in law. The IETF’s contributions are coordinated by Andrei Robachevsky and Mat Ford from ISOC. The 2023 contributions and archives from prior years are available at [1].
> 
> Alissa
> 
> [0] https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/rolling-plan-ict-standardisation/rolling-plan-2023
> [1] https://wiki.ietf.org/group/iab/Multi-Stake-Holder-Platform
> 
> > On May 17, 2023, at 8:47 AM, Benno Overeinder <benno@nlnetlabs.nl> wrote:
> > 
> > Not EU, but for the Netherlands there are (strongly) recommended open standards for the public sector, the so-called "past toe of leg uit" (apply or explain) list.  The standards include IETF standards, as well as other standards from other domains.
> > 
> > The apply and explain list has been codified by Forum Standaardisatie, see https://www.forumstandaardisatie.nl and https://www.forumstandaardisatie.nl/en/netherlands-standardisation-forum.
> > 
> > Instrumental in the adoption of Internet standards is https://internet.nl/, which has an API for bulk measurements to create an overview of the public sectors and their adoption of standards such as DNSSEC, HTTPS and TLS, DKIM and DMARC, IPv6, etc.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > -- Benno
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 17/05/2023 03:21, Jane Coffin wrote:
> >> There is that
> >> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:
> >>    Should one start to wonder how it can be that the EU relies likely
> >>    almost solely on
> >>    IETF/TCP protocols for their own networks, if not for all the users and
> >>    industries in the EU ? How does that with with harmonization
> >>    requirements ?
> >>    ---
> >>    Toerless
> >>    On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 03:18:42PM -0400, Jane Coffin wrote:
> >>     > Many thanks, Niels.
> >>     >
> >>     > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 2:42 PM Niels ten Oever
> >>    <mail@nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>>
> >>     > wrote:
> >>     >
> >>     > > Hi Jane,
> >>     > >
> >>     > > I checked with the excellent Olia Kanevskaia and she confirmed
> >>    what I
> >>     > > said: EU can only refer to harmonized standards because it presumes
> >>     > > compliance with EU directives and regulations.
> >>     > >
> >>     > > This is also why CEN/CENELEC is now playing a role in the new
> >>    draft AI
> >>     > > regulation (even though some academics argue this will not hold
> >>    up because
> >>     > > of inherent democratic deficits [0]).
> >>     > >
> >>     > > Best,
> >>     > >
> >>     > > Niels
> >>     > >
> >>     > >
> >>     > > [0] See for instance para 52-57
> >>     > >
> >>    https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=526026122121112015065079030079002004021019084010061003029097008119085101094126103098117019034042056022028000080068074000030123105078049036082098020111006082021085011024058017110080086095027094117113097001118001069071065103108101124116068023026122020020&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE <https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=526026122121112015065079030079002004021019084010061003029097008119085101094126103098117019034042056022028000080068074000030123105078049036082098020111006082021085011024058017110080086095027094117113097001118001069071065103108101124116068023026122020020&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE>
> >>     > >
> >>     > > Veale, Michael, and Frederik Zuiderveen Borgesius. 2021.
> >>    “Demystifying the
> >>     > > Draft EU Artificial Intelligence Act—Analysing the Good, the
> >>    Bad, and the
> >>     > > Unclear Elements of the Proposed Approach.” Computer Law Review
> >>     > > International 22 (4): 97–112.
> >>     > >
> >>     > > On 16-05-2023 18:32, Jane Coffin wrote:
> >>     > > > Hi Niels -
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > > I had an inkling it was something like this as a UK colleague
> >>    was quite
> >>     > > clear that the UK carefully went out of its way to include IETF
> >>    vis-a-vis
> >>     > > standards.
> >>     > > > Let me find out more re that.
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > > It would be great if you could ask your legal colleagues re this.
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > > Best,
> >>     > > > Jane
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 12:28 PM Niels ten Oever
> >>    <mail@nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>
> >>     > > <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net
> >>    <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>>> wrote:
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     Hi Jane,
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     As far as I know, in its legislation the European Union
> >>    (EU) can
> >>     > > only refer to 'harmonised standards'. A harmonised standard is
> >>    a European
> >>     > > standard developed by a recognised European Standards
> >>    Organisation: CEN,
> >>     > > CENELEC, or ETSI. This is why, for instance, CEN adopts ISO
> >>    standards in
> >>     > > Europe, through the prefix “EN ISO” (see also Vienna
> >>    Agreement). So it are
> >>     > > just CEN, CENELEC and ETSI standards that are commonly referred
> >>    to in
> >>     > > European legislation and policies.
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     Through CEN, CENELEC, and ETSI international standards
> >>    also often
> >>     > > get translated to national standards bodies (NSBs)(but
> >>    sometimes they also
> >>     > > get translated directly from ISO/IEC to NSBs). Then countries
> >>    can refer to
> >>     > > it in national legislation as well in my understanding.
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     But I can ask my law colleagues to verify.
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     Best,
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     Niels
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     On 16-05-2023 17:39, Jane Coffin wrote:
> >>     > > >      > All -
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      > Some countries - like Armenia (or at least in 2006) --
> >>    indicated
> >>     > > in the Telecoms Law that ITU standards were part of their national
> >>     > > standards fabric.  Whether they actually put this into practice
> >>    is a
> >>     > > separate issue (they definitely did on spectrum - Radio Regs -
> >>    Treaty).
> >>     > > >      > I think the UK (when part of the EC) had to amend some
> >>    of its
> >>     > > laws (or codes, procedures, you get the point) to include
> >>    standards other
> >>     > > than ISO, ITU, and specifically include IETF protocols/standards.
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      > Does the EC officially accept IETF standards in their
> >>    roster of
> >>     > > standards?
> >>     > > >      > Did some EC countries have to specifically change
> >>     > > laws/codes/other/other to include IETF standards outside of any EC
> >>     > > processes?
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      > I ask this Q as it might be helpful to know at least
> >>    whether the
> >>     > > EC officially accepts IETF standards, and this flows down to all EC
> >>     > > members?  I use the word "accept" as a placeholder for "include by
> >>     > > reference in leg, incorporate by ref, other, other appropriate
> >>    term".
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      > Jane
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:05 AM Mallory Knodel <mknodel=
> >>     > > 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
> >>    <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>>
> >>    <mailto:
> >>     > > 40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
> >>    <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org
> >>    <mailto:40cdt.org@dmarc.ietf.org>>>> wrote:
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >     Others will have more context, likely, but I've
> >>    engaged with
> >>     > > this content rather extensively and it largely focusses on
> >>     > > national/regional standards efforts, not international bodies
> >>    like the
> >>     > > IETF, though it does make mention and understand rather well,
> >>    in my view,
> >>     > > the relationship between different actors.
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >     -Mallory
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >      >     On 5/16/23 8:59 AM, Rifaat Shekh-Yusef wrote:
> >>     > > >      >>     Hi,
> >>     > > >      >>
> >>     > > >      >>     Anyone aware of any relationship between the IETF and
> >>     > > the European Commission ICT initiative?
> >>     > > >      >>     European Multi-Stakeholder Platform on ICT
> >>    Standardisation |
> >>     > > Shaping Europe’s digital future (europa.eu <http://europa.eu>
> >>    <http://europa.eu <http://europa.eu>>) <
> >>     > >
> >>    https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation <https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation>
> >>     > > <
> >>     > >
> >>    https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation <https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/multi-stakeholder-platform-ict-standardisation>
> >>     > > >>
> >>     > > >      >>
> >>     > > >      >>     Regards,
> >>     > > >      >>      Rifaat
> >>     > > >      >>
> >>     > > >      >     --
> >>     > > >      >     Mallory Knodel
> >>     > > >      >     CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
> >>     > > >      >     gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071
> >>    0C32 A271
> >>     > > BD3C C780
> >>     > > >      >
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     --
> >>     > > >     Niels ten Oever, PhD
> >>     > > >     Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab -
> >>    University
> >>     > > of Amsterdam
> >>     > > >     Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies -
> >>    University of
> >>     > > Amsterdam
> >>     > > >
> >>     > > >     W: https://criticalinfralab.net
> >>    <https://criticalinfralab.net> <https://criticalinfralab.net
> >>    <https://criticalinfralab.net>>
> >>     > > >     W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> >>    <https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>>
> >>     > > >     PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> >>     > > >
> >>     > >
> >>     > > --
> >>     > > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> >>     > > Co-Principal Investigator - critical infrastructure lab -
> >>    University of
> >>     > > Amsterdam
> >>     > > Assistant Professor - Department of European Studies -
> >>    University of
> >>     > > Amsterdam
> >>     > >
> >>     > > W: https://criticalinfralab.net <https://criticalinfralab.net>
> >>     > > W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> >>     > > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> >>     > >
> >>    --     ---
> >>    tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>
> > 
> > -- 
> > Benno J. Overeinder
> > NLnet Labs
> > https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/
> > 
> 

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de