Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

Whot! Ae you saying IETF has no comprehensive and detailled written down
citation guidelines ? How could we have survived for so long without it ?
No proud academic publishing house can live without one!  ;-))

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:22:46AM -0400, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> On 10/27/20 7:33 AM, Keith Drage wrote:
> > I do agree that referencing by section numbering is the appropriate method.
> > 
> > However, as you say, it gets difficult with overly long sections, and
> > this is something on which no guidance or checking is currently given.
> > Perhaps it should be?
> > 
> > Further there are difficulties with section references if you allow text
> > between x.y.z and x.y.z.1. Does a reference to x.y.z mean the entirety
> > of the text including x.y.z.1, or merely the text before x.y.z. Other
> > organisations restrict such usage in order to make section references
> > unambiguous.
> 
> +1
> 
> Sections that contain subsections are commonly long. And not only can x.y.z
> contain text prior to x.y.z.1, it can also contain text after subsections
> that is not part of a subsection.
> 
> Perhaps the solution is paragraph numbers. But I don't know how you would
> include them in the txt format.
> 
> 	Thanks,
> 	Paul
> 
> > I also note people are referring to the XML version as the definitive
> > version, but surely the section numbers do not appear until the
> > presentation version is created?
> > 
> > Keith
> > 
> > On 27/10/2020 01:53, John C Klensin wrote:
> > > 
> > > --On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 01:30 +0000 Ronald Tse
> > > <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Thanks John for the clarification. There is some confusion to
> > > > me whether the intention is just about the TXT output having
> > > > page numbers, or for the PDF to also have the same page
> > > > numbers, and whether to use page numbers inside cross
> > > > references. There was a also discussion about a ToC and page
> > > > numbers, but perhaps that was a diversion.
> > > > 
> > > > If the discussion is only about the ASCII output having page
> > > > numbers, I have no objection because it is (nearly) purely
> > > > cosmetic (in publication and in usage of the text, being done
> > > > by xml2rfc).
> > > > 
> > > > If having page numbers will require the PDF output to also
> > > > have page numbers, this inevitably leads to some shared spec
> > > > between the TXT and PDF outputs on the topic of pagination,
> > > > which is less ideal, but since I assume that is the work of
> > > > xml2rfc, it's not a concern to us as tool maintainers.
> > > Actually, I think you have it a bit backward.  The PDF has page
> > > numbers today.  More to the point, PDF is (almost) inherently a
> > > page image format so there is no way to escape pagination.  One
> > > could decide to not number those pages in the footers, or one
> > > could eliminate the headers and footers entirely, but the page
> > > boundaries are going to be there regardless.
> > > 
> > > However, as long as a strict discipline is maintained that
> > > references (within an RFC, between RFCs, and whatever we can
> > > do/encourage about external references to RFCs use are to
> > > section numbers and not pages (and there Brian and I agree)
> > > _and_ as long as we don't allow sections to become so long that
> > > people seek other mechanisms, then whether the page numbers in a
> > > text format agree with those in the PDF format or not is largely
> > > irrelevant.  That issue is centuries old: if I reference a
> > > chapter by number in a book, that reference is typically stable
> > > for different printings and formats (and often but not always
> > > between editions).  But the page numbers often are not, so,
> > > unless the people doing the layout are _really_ careful, using
> > > the index from, e.g., a hardbound copy and trying to apply its
> > > numbers to a paperback that uses different size type and page
> > > layouts is, to use a technical term, just plain dumb.  And
> > > external references that use page numbers need to be very
> > > careful to specify exactly what form is being referred to.
> > > 
> > > > Adding page numbers to cross references can make reading
> > > > confusing ??? since the cross references between the paginated
> > > > and flowed versions will render these references differently.
> > > > It's doable, but again this requirement ties the paginated
> > > > versions (TXT and PDF) together for consistency.
> > > And, again, this is why there has been a long-term prohibition
> > > in the RFC Series against using page numbers in cross references.
> > > 
> > > > Of course, if the PDF output is simply an enhanced PDF-ized
> > > > TXT version, these aren't really issues.
> > > But two of several advantages of the contemporary (xml2rfc v3)
> > > PDF version is that it can contain and render pictures easily
> > > and that, if characters are used outside the ASCII repertoire,
> > > they are rendered correctly as well.
> > > 
> > > best,
> > >      john
> > > 
> > 

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