From nobody Mon Apr 17 12:19:19 2023 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wish@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wish@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63152C1526ED for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 12:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFOq25yFDCDJ for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 12:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp001-out.apm-internet.net (smtp001-out.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52601C1524B3 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 12:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 63236 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2023 19:19:01 -0000 X-APM-Out-ID: 16817591416323 X-APM-Authkey: 255286/0(253943/0) 809 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2023 19:19:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6388182E; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 20:19:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra003.verygoodemail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id dLNrWAdFE5sp; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 20:19:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [192.67.4.77]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6CD318140F; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 20:19:01 +0100 (BST) From: Tim Panton Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_14A02164-02A5-4473-870A-867DFFF019C8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 20:18:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , Sergio Garcia Murillo , Sean Turner , WISH List To: Bernard Aboba References: <194B3D5F-D61E-496B-8B6A-74D5BAB78314@sn3rd.com> <874jpejtvv.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Wish] WG recharter X-BeenThere: wish@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: WebRTC Ingest Signaling over HTTPS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:19:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_14A02164-02A5-4473-870A-867DFFF019C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think there might well be need for a group to specify how to carry = various things over DataChannels, (We=E2=80=99ve tunnelled webpages and websockets, lighting control = signals, identity proofs, subtitles, certificates, files, firmware = updates etc) but I don=E2=80=99t think WISH is the place to have that discussion. @bernard Perhaps we should sketch something out for dispatch... T. > On 17 Apr 2023, at 19:06, Bernard Aboba = wrote: >=20 > Juliusz said:=20 >=20 > "I think that's an important point. In WHIP, Sergio has been careful = to > stick to signalling, and defer all other protocol features to existing > standards. That's what makes WHIP so eminently implementable." >=20 > [BA] Except that there *are* "eminently implementable" standards, = such as CMAF for containerization and MSE API (for rendering). To prove = the point, CMAF is supported in early MoQ drafts and browser clients = demos supporting MSE have implemented "rewind". If WebTransport were = swapped out for RTCDataChannel, those same demos would run in Chromium.=20= >=20 > So the protocols have already been defined and implemented, and = running code already exists. In that sense, the remaining functionality = is largely in the realm of "signaling" (e.g. how to request CMAF over = RTCDataChannel, or how to request "rewind").=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM Juliusz Chroboczek = > wrote: >> > Regarding the specific DRM and rewind functionalities, there is not = a standard >> > way of implementing them that we can reuse here. >>=20 >> I think that's an important point. In WHIP, Sergio has been careful = to >> stick to signalling, and defer all other protocol features to = existing >> standards. That's what makes WHIP so eminently implementable. >>=20 >> -- Juliusz > --=20 > Wish mailing list > Wish@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish --Apple-Mail=_14A02164-02A5-4473-870A-867DFFF019C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I think there = might well be need for a group to specify how to carry various things = over DataChannels,
(We=E2=80=99ve tunnelled webpages and websockets, = lighting control signals,  identity proofs, subtitles, = certificates, files, firmware updates etc)
 but I don=E2=80= =99t think WISH is the place to have that = discussion.

@bernard Perhaps we should sketch = something out for = dispatch...

T.

On 17 Apr 2023, at 19:06, Bernard Aboba = <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> wrote:

Juliusz = said: 

"I think that's an important point.  = In WHIP, Sergio has been careful to
stick to signalling, and defer = all other protocol features to existing
standards.  That's = what makes WHIP so eminently = implementable."

[BA]  Except that there = *are* "eminently implementable" standards, such as CMAF for = containerization and MSE API (for rendering).  To prove the point, = CMAF is supported in early MoQ drafts and browser clients demos = supporting MSE have implemented "rewind".  If WebTransport were = swapped out for RTCDataChannel, those same demos would run in = Chromium. 

So the protocols have already = been defined and implemented, and running code already exists.  In = that sense, the remaining functionality is largely in the realm of = "signaling" (e.g. how to request CMAF over RTCDataChannel, or how to = request = "rewind"). 



On Mon, Apr = 17, 2023 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
> Regarding the specific DRM and = rewind functionalities, there is not a standard
> way of implementing them that we can reuse here.

I think that's an important point.  In WHIP, Sergio has been = careful to
stick to signalling, and defer all other protocol features to = existing
standards.  That's what makes WHIP so eminently implementable.

-- Juliusz
--
Wish mailing = list
Wish@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish

= --Apple-Mail=_14A02164-02A5-4473-870A-867DFFF019C8--