Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong

Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> Sat, 27 February 2021 18:39 UTC

Return-Path: <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89C63A122C for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:18 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gNTQSKuMvwNY for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCEE23A122B for <xml2rfc@ietf.org>; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:16 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614451151; bh=Kmw4TWvVlLIxKx2LuP+C3y4IoXsMoAF0YgSiNB2AenM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=iwINsEV6FmLEZoT2B3ut+GWr3U69Fd07nLwb9LpG+51Vngw2rQkjPsU0jMpDe27TE oHVZgSsf0o79KjU3PB5kbIMhCsn6PYEmGGQWUI3bIfQ+h5j4e5qEzOoLYivVjLxsCw DDobg570Kcej2UpmLVNJF17jvwgoULoxM9/Ri8EY=
X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c
Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVN6j-1lPnvE0Lnr-00SNGs; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:39:11 +0100
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org
References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <9366fbd9-f117-b120-04dc-91f8ed80b56c@gmx.de>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:39:10 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:78x2KAbC83XUhfO91Vt8UILH1Xb9GiukMNvfX6C0BJsKAiTAWFK 72LV0M6DEI4rV2TjF4BcWV9B3BWIW3ZKMnQv2cyShsjdl3VXUd5+NufPnWzAu7wNDjyayOp FzwecVywi3RzeQTtkQM2MHgXXv4XxpOPfhFGRr3F2Q0Duc0jPPaHHRcCuEUVXHfc/6PhVdx xFZIJReN3rEAWKgUMKt/Q==
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:J8Oi+HXRogs=:cW/HMOlGFsG16q2y8gr5pB vlwGmHUdUKxgUP+lQXjwPXzERln9xSFtzt/W2Ftf8F4VicNOH3qUp3KC+orcOG0tNzhtWYJxW A+dW08f1KlSozvRmlB5mcn+9VazV1m/BYZc4vCjax/JUka6DCu5B7RIB067p3kxzSWPFKbrpN NHwWjj4YQtcvZek0eUX8Ysr9Ur+LhjNhSBvFCWm3H+LOzQ8+IsnVApnCIJAb3EesHu1wy5/IO LzzRUOqutFiKOrkmT2lWSqLz0Mw+7PIIeICrZ8iHwKCsdXMSSxOZivY7/UM9GmG+8JVOKJtKi 9eDEgZfjUITHf7iyXTfHU+aqkoxLsLBzbw3rSI/BGzcLQCDmaxW13jpbNNgnWjy6qRgdmr3zn uNNHeOQf5/DqWhU93qIZA9iNXUAuQfXkQ1kx+M1Q4EV5MFh2TOmg5s6TZAtYPYKc8r1ClkyRe elDhHDD2F1fNBsBcZcM5Htl/ZmEEcFRhyeQhmoDTyAQ9BpBKMIRTUT7YY0sMzyIoAmuDScj0c N7falFdaE+aUH7sowbzZJiZKMk39bAHzBSx3lyYX7TwGxIp9rXWWZFG6wuAg/msypgx1/mgfc KRr7T1jyGZ4kynqF3Wxp6UfG6mL7sPK+AUsr1z3bIId6FmW5TwBaI+uuQ5Wts+zIFd7RN4Wu0 qJyTePt90gFaevTTc50eEu7LzXq/WV1RkQFwL3Aw5YNZm53Zr4IcCMfQTI4m2v6unAAxba8Jp xHkiTK15zd36XikemaTkPUAQbwGL9riQ27WEbYDtp7CyN+rZosMrjyzaaPBvwXzwzLek7gKBr 9LaPMLbKTz7XASO3ldakFJCpNUjwzqtqw9KNut8a6Z4A0UTMEGXKGWT/ewtaF4IvVsIs+SBtX kUyWuWGJvdSa97IFns4w==
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xml2rfc/tfnBkcRULXHAtthvPM19WMJ2RME>
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <xml2rfc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/xml2rfc/>
List-Post: <mailto:xml2rfc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:39:19 -0000

Am 27.02.2021 um 19:14 schrieb Julian Reschke:
> Am 27.02.2021 um 19:01 schrieb Nico Williams:
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 06:40:53PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams:
>>>> Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that?
>>>
>>> People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside <t> and similar
>>> elements. For instance, for indentation.
>>
>> But what makes whitespace in <t> insignificant?  If it's xml2rfc, then
>> that can be changed.
>
> Whitespace is insignificant everywhere except in <artwork> and <sourecode>.
>
> People rely on this. Think indentation.
>
>>>>> The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output
>>>>> format really really is not important.
>>>>
>>>> Not acceptable.
>>>
>>> I just opened a random ancient RFC I'm familiar with (2068), and it
>>> hasn't two spaces after a sentence ending. At least not consistently.
>>
>> So?
>
> So it apparently has been "acceptable" in the past.
>
>>> So exactly when became this a "requirement"? And who determines what
>>> "acceptable" for plain text output?
>>
>> It's very much a thing in typography to follow sentence-ending periods
>> with a wide space precisely to distinguish from non-sentence-ending
>> periods.
>
> If you search for this on the web, you'll find lots of discussions about
> this topic, and I don't thing there's universal agreement on that. Fpr
> instance, see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing>.
>
> In any case: now that there are official HTML versions, the
> "readability" of the text variant IMHO is not a big concern anymore. If
> you want something that is easy to read, take the HTML or PDF versions.
>
> Best regards, Julian

That said, RFC 7322 has:

>    *  When a sentence ended by a period is immediately followed by
>       another sentence, there must be two blank spaces after the period.

(<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7322#section-3.2>).

That text is gone in draft-flanagan-7322bis-00, dated March 2017. I'd
love to hear the current TRSE's position on that -- is this change going
to stay?

Best regards, Julian