Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc
Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> Tue, 15 March 2016 19:51 UTC
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 12:51:18 -0700
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To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc
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I support Keith and Alan on this. On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) < keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote: > I have to support Alan on this. > > > > We should remember that the WG approved this document as a WG document > without any IPR disclosure being present. The ideal time to sort this out > should have been with an IPR disclosure prior to WG adoption, and not once > that decision has been made. > > > > Part of the IETF process on IPR is the seeking of clarification on IPR > disclosures, and so far no response has been made. Given the delay in the > IPR declaration was longer than so far has been allowed for a response, it > is clear that the wheels have not all turned yet. > > > > My belief is that we should wait until these issues are clear and > questions answered, and then proceed with a new call as to whether the > document is now appropriate to publish. > > > > Regards > > > > Keith Drage > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *EXT Alan > Clark > *Sent:* 10 March 2016 23:14 > > *To:* Roni Even; xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi Roni > > So I guess if a company made an IPR disclosure that stated their electric > toaster patent applied to the draft then you would express no opinion? I'm > not as willing to suppress my views on IPR issues - I've been dealing with > patent claims related to standards since the mid-1980's and have always > tried to honor both the word and spirit of the patent policy of the > standards organizations I've been involved with. I've also been involved > in patent litigation and patent licensing discussions many times and know > at first hand the complexity and cost involved. As a WG we should have the > interests of potential implementers at heart, both from a technical > perspective and in minimizing legal obstacles to implementation. > > If the WG wants to proceed with this then so be it - however in that case > I will request that I am removed as an author as I cannot support this > draft under those circumstances. > > Best Regards > > Alan > > On 3/10/16 5:49 PM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Inline > > Roni > > > > *From:* Alan Clark [mailto:alan.d.clark@telchemy.com > <alan.d.clark@telchemy.com>] > *Sent:* Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:39 PM > *To:* Roni Even; xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi Roni > > The WG certainly has the option of not proceeding with a draft given that > an IPR disclosure has been made against it - more so given that the > disclosure was not made during any of the working sessions (according to > IETF policy). > > *[Roni Even] Rachel already stated that she was not aware of the IPR and > the disclosure in the meeting by a participant is only if you know of such > IPR which was not the case here!!* > > > > Have you personally reviewed the patent in question? I suggest that it > would be a good idea to do so as this is not a borderline case of "does > this loss concealment algorithm implement anything in that loss concealment > patent", there is a major disconnect between the subject matter of the > draft and the patent. > > *[Roni Even] Again I am not the right person to judge the IPR and I > believe that this is the case for most IETF participants. You can say that > this is your personal view which may be right or wrong.* > > > > Going back to my original proposal from some weeks ago - I requested that > Huawei internally review their patent against the draft to verify that it > does apply. It appears to me to be a simple case of text matching "loss > concealment" rather than an actual technical review of applicability. > Rachel offered to ask the question and we have not had a reply. > > Regards > > Alan > > On 3/10/16 9:11 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi, > > I am not sure that the IETF WGs are the body that make a decision if an > IPR is valid or not. So I will argue that we can proceed with the document. > I think that the licensing terms are OK with the IETF policies and there > should be no reason to stop the publication > > Thanks > > Roni Even > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Alan Clark > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2016 6:30 PM > *To:* xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Dan > > I reviewed (again) the patent cited by Huawei in this disclosure and was > not able to find any claims or descriptions related to metrics and > reporting - only details of a video loss concealment algorithm, and the > draft identifies only a reporting protocol and not a video codec; I will > caveat this by saying that I've reviewed the English translation of the > Chinese patent. > > While IETF patent policy does not require companies to defend their > disclosures and does state that the IETF does not take a position on > whether a patent does or does not apply to a draft/RFC I think it sets a > bad precedent if a WG does not take objection to disclosures that appear to > be irrelevant. Saying "are you sure about this?" to the disclosing company > does not mean that the WG is making any statement on infringement, but does > IMHO represent a reasonable degree of due diligence on behalf of the WG. If > we don't push back on disclosing companies when we feel that the disclosure > is based on an invalid understanding of the draft then we are doing a > disservice to implementers and making the IPR situation more complex and > messy than it already is. > > My position is that we should not proceed with this document, based on the > information we have at this time. > > Regards > > Alan Clark > > > > On 3/8/16 7:41 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > ALL WG participants – please answer this question before March 22, 2016. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 08, 2016 2:27 PM > *To:* xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi, > > > > We did not receive any answer to the request for further information. > > > > At this point in time, we ask the working group to express their opinion > about what to do with draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc. > > > > We have two options: > > > > 1. Continue as planned with the approval and publication process > > 2. Not proceed with this document. > > > > All WG participants – please express you preference for option #1 or > option #2. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > *Sent:* Sunday, February 07, 2016 11:29 AM > *To:* Huangyihong (Rachel); Alan Clark; xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi, > > > > There was one answer to this mail (from Alan) expressing preference for > option #1. Let us go with it. > > > > Rachel, it would be good if you can send your colleagues a reminder. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 8:34 AM > *To:* Huangyihong (Rachel); Alan Clark; xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Thanks, Rachel, for the information and for the efforts to clarify the > issue with the legal affairs department at your company. > > > > We have a few more options about what to do next. > > > > 1. Wait a few more weeks for an answer with further information – I > suggest no later than February 29, 2016 > > 2. Proceed with the draft given the information available > > 3. Not proceed with the draft > > > > All WG members – please express your preference. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Huangyihong (Rachel) [mailto:rachel.huang@huawei.com > <rachel.huang@huawei.com>] > *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:42 AM > *To:* Huangyihong (Rachel); Alan Clark; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); > xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Dear all, > > > > Sorry for so late response to the mailing list. > > > > I have forwarded this IPR issue to our legal affairs department > responsible for this IPR disclosure. However, I didn’t get any information > for now. And I’m not sure if they have any that could be shared within the > mailing list or not (We all know that IETF policy doesn’t require the > company to analysis and verify the applying, which is what the legal team > or even court should do when meeting some legal problems). > > > > Meanwhile, I can’t do any clarification for them in public since we’re > totally different departments. It will against our company’s law. …So it’s > not within my control. Hope WG could understand that. > > > > BR, > > Rachel > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Huangyihong (Rachel) > *Sent:* Friday, January 08, 2016 11:26 AM > *To:* Alan Clark; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi all, > > > > Sorry for the late response. I’m in a business trip these two weeks with > sporadic email access. So I may not respond timely. > > This IPR is from another department so I’m not quite familiar with it. > I’ll invite the colleague who’s the IPR holder or responsible for the IPR > disclosure to clarify in the mailing list. Hope we can find some way to > solve this issue. > > > > BR, > > Rachel > > > > *发件人**:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *代表 *Alan Clark > *发送时间:* 2016年1月7日 0:21 > *收件人:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan); xrblock@ietf.org > *主题:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi Dan > > Within the IETF patent policy there is no requirement that I'm aware of > that requires a disclosing company to prove that the patent they reference > does in fact apply to the draft/RFC, which means that companies could make > disclosure statements that don't actually apply to the referenced > draft/RFC. In many larger companies the IPR/legal team may be distant from > the engineering team and I've seen cases in which allegations of > infringement were made based on a text match rather than a technical > analysis. If, as WG members, we feel that a disclosure may be inappropriate > based on a technical understanding of the draft/RFC and the patent then > IMHO we should be willing to politely point this out - if the disclosing > company wants to keep the disclosure anyway then we have to leave it to > individual implementers to obtain their own legal advice; my view is that > as WG members and authors we should try and keep the IPR situation as clear > as possible. > > I've encountered exactly this situation - my company develops software > that analyzes voice/ audio/ video stream performance and as part of this we > model the performance of a wide range of voice/ audio and video codecs. We > have been contacted numerous times by companies that have codec IPR and who > see that we analyze streams encoded with the G.xyz codec - we then have to > explain that we don't actually implement the codec, only a parametric model. > > So - my position is that we should ask Rachel, as an author and a > representative of the disclosing company, to request that Huawei verify > that their disclosure does, in their opinion, apply. > > Regards > > Alan > > > On 1/6/16 9:40 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > > > The statement that was posted a few weeks back explicitly refers to this > I-D – see https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2725/. Of course, anybody can > comment within the rules, but the fact that the disclosing company > considers the IPR related to this I-D is public information. > > > > What is your position as WG participant and as co-author of the document? > What should the WG do? > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Alan Clark > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:06 PM > *To:* xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > I reviewed the patent that the disclosure related to - this appears to > describe a method for video coding that uses loss concealment and not a > method of reporting the effectiveness of loss concealment. It is of course > the responsibility of the IPR holder to verify that their patent does in > fact apply to the Draft/RFC to which their disclosure statement applies. I > suggest that the WG chairs ask the participants from the disclosing company > to check to see if this disclosure is in fact relevant to the draft. > > Regards > > Alan > > On 1/5/16 7:34 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There were no responses to this query. Please express your opinions on the > mail list whether we should continue as planned with the approval for this > I-D. > > > > Possible options (other may apply): > > > > 1. Continue as planned > > 2. Do not continue > > 3. Continue, but first do … > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > *From:* xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org > <xrblock-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 16, 2015 12:55 PM > *To:* xrblock@ietf.org > *Subject:* [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc > > > > Hi, > > > > As you may have seen an IPR disclosure that pertains to draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcp-xr-video-lc was submitted recently. The announcement on the XRBLOCK mail list with more information can be read at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xrblock/current/msg01914.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_xrblock_current_msg01914.html&d=BQMFAg&c=BFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=I4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&m=JT0PNFMVTwcCOwfJFWR9rPXwWO3aXrz-8hcAnDMibu4&s=Y212mtSrLAN6yGGEigFnx-qwjZv_a0r5MpWucZswumg&e=>. > > > > This I-D was on the agenda of the IESG telechat this Thursday 12/17. Our AD decided to defer this I-D to the next telechat scheduled for January 7, 2016 and asked us to confirm on the mail list that the WG still plans to proceed with the I-D. > > > > Taking into account this new information – do the participants in the WG want to proceed with the approval of this Internet-Draft? Please state your opinions on the WG mail list until Monday January 4, 2016. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > xrblock mailing list > > xrblock@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xrblock <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_xrblock&d=BQMD-g&c=BFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=I4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&m=QnXfHHtrCWuOTN6ltI1OQl5JKpT1vIEt5lm6yyUl-K0&s=ZDjj6FP8ei9wzWsi7L54u3cKecOhJxcBl4LP8yojwBQ&e=> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > xrblock mailing list > > xrblock@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xrblock > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > xrblock mailing list > xrblock@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xrblock > >
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to dra… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Meng Wei
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark
- Re: [xrblock] after the IPR Disclosure related to… Alan Clark