Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics-06
Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> Thu, 02 November 2017 15:24 UTC
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 10:24:19 -0500
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Cc: Varun Singh <varun@callstats.io>, "draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics.all@ietf.org>, xrblock <xrblock@ietf.org>
To: Dan Romascanu <dromasca@gmail.com>, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>, "Huangyihong (Rachel)" <rachel.huang@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics-06
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Thanks, that sounds good to me. Is there a specific W3C document that references (or plans to reference) this? I ask because I expect people to ask if the draft has already “done its job”; that is, if it’s still relevant to publish as an RFC. Ben. > On Nov 2, 2017, at 7:15 AM, Dan Romascanu <dromasca@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 7:25 AM, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi > Just to clarify, the individual draft started as an Informational draft and just before becoming a WG draft it was changed to standard track. We see no WG decision for this and as Rachel said, Informational is OK > Roni > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xrblock [mailto:xrblock-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Huangyihong > > (Rachel) > > Sent: יום ה 02 נובמבר 2017 12:01 > > To: Ben Campbell; Varun Singh > > Cc: draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics.all@ietf.org; xrblock > > Subject: Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr- > > metrics-06 > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > After discussion among the co-authors, we reached the consensus to make it > > informational. W3C stats API still refers to it, but in an informational way. > > We'll submit a new version to address your comments. > > > > BR, > > Rachel > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] > > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 5:52 AM > > > To: Varun Singh > > > Cc: draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics.all@ietf.org; xrblock > > > Subject: Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of > > > draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics-06 > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 8, 2017, at 8:11 AM, Varun Singh <varun@callstats.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > > > See inline. > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 12:28 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> This is my AD Evaluation of > > > >> draft-ietf-xrblock-rtcweb-rtcp-xr-metrics-06. I > > > would like to resolve at least the substantive comments prior to IETF LC. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks! > > > >> > > > >> Ben. > > > >> ————————— > > > >> > > > >> Substantive: > > > >> > > > >> - General: If I understand correctly, this document lists and > > > >> describes XR > > > metrics that a WebRTC application might choose to negotiate and expose > > > via the WebRTC API. It does not define any new XR metrics. That brings > > > up two > > > questions: > > > >> > > > >> 1) Why is this specific to WebRTC? For the most parts, all the > > > >> arguments > > > here would apply to any sort of RTP endpoint. > > > >> > > > > > > > > This draft was created initially as an input to RTCWEB and later as > > > > an input to WebRTC Statistics API. Hence the use of WebRTC in the > > > > title and the introduction. We could add to the introduction: "In > > > > general, the metrics listed in this document can be exposed by any > > > > real-time communications endpoint." Or something along those lines > > > > > > > > > > > >> 2) Why is this standards track? This sort of material is typically > > > >> informational, > > > or occasionally a BCP. There are a small number of 2119 keywords, but > > > I’m not sure they are needed or appropriate. (Specifics below.) My > > > initial instinct is that this should be informational. > > > >> > > > > > > > > The reason until recently (perhaps still exist) is that this was an > > > > input from the IETF to W3C, I am not sure if there was an official > > > > liaison statements sent to them? nonetheless, the W3C Statistics API > > > > document needed a specification needed (a specification in any > > > > standards body would suffice) for metrics to be accepted into the > > > > W3C document. > > > > > > To make sure I understand:That API document will reference this one? > > > Do they require that specification to be standards track? > > > > > > Was there discussion in xrblock about standards track verses BCP? > > > > > > > > > > > In practice, it helped that I was the co-author of both the IETF and > > > > W3C document and hence was able to make the case for the metrics in > > > > W3C. > > > > > > Is that case already made? That is, does the need for a published RFC > > > still exist? > > > > > > > > > > >> - General: This needs an IANA considerations section, even if it > > > >> just contains > > > the statement to the effect of “This document makes no requests for > > IANA”. > > > >> > > > >> - 1, last paragraph: “ The document also creates a registry > > > >> containing > > > identifiers from the metrics reported in the RTCP Sender, Receiver, > > > and Extended Reports.” > > > > > > > > This should be removed. Thanks for pointing this out. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> It doesn’t actually do that. I understand from the shepherd’s > > > >> report that > > > this was intentionally removed. > > > >> > > > >> — “All identifiers proposed in this document are RECOMMENDED to be > > > >> implemented by an endpoint. An endpoint MAY choose not to expose > > > >> an identifier if it does not implement the corresponding RTCP > > > >> Report. “ > > > >> > > > >> Does the “RECOMMENDED” apply to all endpoints or just WebRTC > > > >> endpoints? If the latter, doesn’t that requirement belong (or need > > > >> to > > > >> update) some requirement from an RTCWEB (maybe rtp-usage) > > document, > > > >> or even the API itself? (I suspect that this draft does not have > > > >> standing to state this normatively.) What is meant by “MAY choose > > > >> not to expose”. Is that talking about via the WebRTC API? If so, > > > >> isn’t that up to the API definition? (That is, it shouldn’t be > > > >> normative > > > >> here.) > > > >> > > > > > > > > It should be applicable to any endpoint, although it is pertinent or > > > > timely for the WebRTC endpoint to expose these. > > > > The purpose of the statement was to highlight that if the > > > > middlebox/endpoint sends RTCP XRs then it should expose the data > > > > available via the API. > > > > > > > > I am open to changing to a non-normative lower case guidance if that > > > > would be more suitable, although if this document is making > > > > recommendations to the W3C document -- wouldn't we keep the > > uppercase? > > > > > > In general, 2119 keywords are better used when we are talking about > > > interoperability issues in a protocol. I suggest switching to lower > > > case unless there’s some reason to believe the W3C won’t pay attention > > > unless it’s in all-caps. (I don’t think that’s usually the case.) > > > > > > > > > > > co-authors, what do you think? > > > > > > > >> -2: If this document keeps the normative keywords, please use the > > > >> updated boilerplate from RFC 8174. (I note that there are at least > > > >> some uncapitalized “may”s that do not seem normative.) > > > >> > > > > > > > > depending on the above, we should fix these to uppercase. > > > > > > > >> - 5.2.2, last paragraph: “The following metrics can also be considered…” > > > >> Be considered by whom? Implementors? API designers? > > > >> > > > > > > > > Both. > > > > > > > >> - 6, first paragraph: “In practice the application MUST be able to > > > >> query the > > > statistic identifiers on both an incoming (remote) and outgoing > > > (local) media stream.” > > > >> What does the MUST requirement apply to? The WebRTC API? This > > seems > > > more like a statement of fact that “ the application needs to be able…” > > > >> > > > > > > > > correct, "needs to" is better. > > > > > > > >> -8: "Therefore encryption procedures, such as the ones suggested > > > >> for a > > > Secure RTCP (SRTCP), need to be used.” > > > >> The text should describe the reasons encryption is needed. Also, is > > > >> this a > > > new normative requirement, or a restatement of an existing requirement? > > > >> > > > > > > > > I believe it is restatement alluding to the guidance in the > > > > corresponding RTCP XRs. > > > > > > > >> Editorial: > > > >> > > > >> -1, paragraph 1:" If sufficient information (metrics or statistics) > > > >> are provided to the applications, it can attempt to improve the > > > >> media quality. “ > > > >> > > > >> s / “are provided” / “is provided” > > > >> s / applications / application > > > >> > > > >> -3, 2nd paragraph: It would help to clarify that the references to > > > >> section 5 > > > and 6 are to this document, not RFC 3611. > > > >> > > > >> — 3rd paragraph: "At the moment…” > > > >> Please clarify that is at the time of writing (not reading) > > > >> > > > >> -5, 2nd paragraph: “ Application impact metrics mainly collect the > > > >> information in the viewpoint of application … “ s / in / from Also, > > > >> please expand “FEC” on first mention. > > > >> > > > >> - 5.1.1, first paragraph: “ Duplicate packets may be a result of > > > >> network > > > delays, which causes the sender to retransmit the original packets.” > > > >> s/ :delays, which” / “delays that” > > > >> > > > >> — last paragraph: "For those RTCWEB services with jitter buffer…” > > > >> s/buffer/buffers > > > >> > > > >> - 5.1.2, first paragraph: > > > >> First sentence is a comma splice. > > > >> — “some transitory nature of the impairments” > > > >> Should this say “the transitory nature of some impairments”? > > > >> — “ Distributed burst provides a higher subjective quality” > > > >> “Burst distribution …”? > > > >> — Last paragraph: “ Hence, if WebRTC application” > > > >> Missing article (or should application be plural?) > > > >> > > > >> - 5.2.1, title: Should “Discard” be “Discarded”? > > > >> > > > >> -7: Please clarify that this is at the time of this writing. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback and suggestions, we will fix these. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Varun > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Founder, CEO, callstats.io > > > > http://www.callstats.io > > > > > > > > Interested in networking, media quality, and diagnostics. > > > > We are hiring!: www.callstats.io/jobs/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > xrblock mailing list > > xrblock@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xrblock >
- [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock-rtc… Ben Campbell
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Varun Singh
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Ben Campbell
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Ben Campbell
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Huangyihong (Rachel)
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Roni Even
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Dan Romascanu
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Ben Campbell
- Re: [xrblock] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-xrblock… Varun Singh