Re: [core] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> Fri, 26 May 2017 17:27 UTC

Return-Path: <dthaler@microsoft.com>
X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31F4129329; Fri, 26 May 2017 10:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.021
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CmZH21WVBzwy; Fri, 26 May 2017 10:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0124.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39F9C1294EC; Fri, 26 May 2017 10:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=uHZtzCWBee3uC+xyfLZoI2ukG+29FgbuzlG4DUzTAkE=; b=VaQ1c+yO8srLRfy3IGUfrpCMPMpMSJ5R/vPj1IGj4bC64hswkiRfG6VHbmMezwaineiDcqB+YiUD8v2JPTLekqinjMGKXHnyJgsiu50fU53HwMepBPBJB1vt5pAV6fAMRTQUvd3AaSLCjnBWwJEdwmkEEGRJrNvI/MdeZK8v7CA=
Received: from CO2PR03MB2262.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.92.143) by CO2PR03MB2263.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.92.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1124.9; Fri, 26 May 2017 17:26:58 +0000
Received: from CO2PR03MB2262.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.92.143]) by CO2PR03MB2262.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.92.143]) with mapi id 15.01.1124.011; Fri, 26 May 2017 17:26:55 +0000
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "core-chairs@ietf.org" <core-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHSxrxpEEhegL9g70yjQJ7jbhMft6HtG3cAgABF/4CAFWZ6gIAENR8Q
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 17:26:55 +0000
Message-ID: <CO2PR03MB2262116320DFC1C749C7D2D2A3FC0@CO2PR03MB2262.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <149411155754.23175.15150224037348429928.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A1046D25-8D1A-4267-9705-16624E727D35@tzi.org> <28837957-421a-eeff-8304-cfafb80ca234@gmx.net> <BY2PR21MB0084BB12DF9C5C684857AD9F83FE0@BY2PR21MB0084.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <BY2PR21MB0084BB12DF9C5C684857AD9F83FE0@BY2PR21MB0084.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: microsoft.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;microsoft.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com;
x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:3::3fe]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CO2PR03MB2263; 7:FhFtUQHtM+/y6o3aidpjUq/xu9/MF2mRCM1iQNjg3BKWQe0CR7rQ4UlRkSnipkJamz8zNcxcKQVLMBgVu9klPLQ46fo/58DYIKYfbI+V24nJjL0M0MOFUKRsd5tEqJClkwSiIz86l4ReSnQl5X4knAxY3NhLOP/FENgRggVhHzNgkZYujTkKEBe4TBDgTKKTqlfJrcocrbx2Zls0auX3IjNCvzY4cJxN83oDXb2vkMFH5V5wbsAkXIM+LtuX8SOcd1oVK0MeXN9qq4Rj/rSV0xjJLqkKvJxnOHYnw7cn6y5CTnU2Po+vOYeMs+GTLheVZQOkLtJ/75a1EuQDgoRXxe67wKd0DVMgicllsOGhIxI=
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:SKI; SCL:-1SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39400400002)(39450400003)(39850400002)(39410400002)(39860400002)(39840400002)(24454002)(102836003)(74316002)(6116002)(93886004)(3280700002)(2906002)(4326008)(2950100002)(3660700001)(81166006)(10290500003)(6246003)(478600001)(86362001)(38730400002)(86612001)(14454004)(230783001)(8936002)(2561002)(966005)(8676002)(6436002)(9686003)(54906002)(6306002)(2900100001)(55016002)(305945005)(99286003)(77096006)(8990500004)(10090500001)(229853002)(7736002)(189998001)(53936002)(25786009)(1511001)(5660300001)(76176999)(122556002)(50986999)(7696004)(33656002)(54356999)(6506006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CO2PR03MB2263; H:CO2PR03MB2262.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CO2PR03MB2263:
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2b518d60-c3f3-4e29-e91b-08d4a45c6828
x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(48565401081)(201703131423075)(201703031133081); SRVR:CO2PR03MB2263;
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <CO2PR03MB22636C2C312567136FFB291BA3FC0@CO2PR03MB2263.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(166708455590820)(100405760836317);
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700061)(100105000095)(100000701061)(100105300095)(100000702061)(100105100095)(61425038)(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(100000703061)(100105400095)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6041248)(20161123562025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123560025)(20161123564025)(20161123558100)(20161123555025)(6072148)(100000704061)(100105200095)(100000705061)(100105500095); SRVR:CO2PR03MB2263; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800061)(100110000095)(100000801061)(100110300095)(100000802061)(100110100095)(100000803061)(100110400095)(100000804061)(100110200095)(100000805054)(100110500095); SRVR:CO2PR03MB2263;
x-forefront-prvs: 031996B7EF
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 May 2017 17:26:55.5028 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR03MB2263
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/8L4Deem4eU4UpKZDNzfXmtwfSfg>
Subject: Re: [core] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" <core.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/core>, <mailto:core-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/core/>
List-Post: <mailto:core@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:core-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>, <mailto:core-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 17:27:02 -0000

Brian Raymor wrote:
> Samsung too. And perhaps one of our OCF+IETF participants could speak to the current OCF
> and/or IoTivity status.

I believe OCF just sent a liaison statement on this topic, based on OCF consensus at a meeting earlier this week, which should answer that question (in short: it's implemented in iotivity, normatively referenced in OCF specs that are in the process of being published... sort of like sitting in the RFC editors queue, and expected to be in lots of products shipping "soon").

My understanding (it was before my time) is that the choice of using COAP (over UDP) was made long before HTTP/2 was a thing and so using COAP over other underlying layers was a natural extension.   Older OIC specs did have a partial specification of OCF over HTTP(S), but as it was never fully fleshed out it was removed from later specs and current Iotivity code implementing OCF protocols just uses coap.

> Encouraged by Dave Thaler, there was a candid discussion of rationale in
> https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/50. As Hannes wrote in the issue:
[...]

Right, I didn't raise an objection (because of the reality cited by Hannes and OCF),
I just suggested an applicability paragraph explaining the relationship and tradeoffs.

Dave