Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Fri, 29 November 2019 16:13 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0A212099A for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:34 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Au1wW0PX8Hx for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDBAA12098D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E44229D6; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:30 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:30 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=llmlp0rZJiNwBxgbSd4KuhjFWvFKnaYkz/C2/JpLX YU=; b=CwUu2FVbrulkbmaG3kLaW0ENVcNr6letQ0ypHW3+YoKG1YPQATCHJRFlo aUsQjcE0YIZM+oAz6eEBTg2k8E/sAa7RToSJPTAIH91x4pN3DT+96MB1o/i5cpGm vW4uL8kWxYy8hPd/EWoX+yP5BpRL8zHCLFC4OequyDbtUwu/Q9+9fqQAQjY26wiz 8sxrOE0RuVUdRRvsJiYPhJZKDTUbm614WCs0D/KU9wroGkahBs25V5vCQoKwLwRj T2vUkZTSDfOM3TjJC8vNyC9GW6Nvj8QR6w+Yo+RZKtTvDvnxjuiov6zepsqfEU5P TOO5zC0nMEbeFkFf7nbcHN+mGLZtw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:qkPhXSBB1-yGbfdj_h8AAx0k9l7npadp22TkGH-U9HtKOCjmOIzAUw>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeiledgkeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:qkPhXXbiDjKMSkFZj4tE4MSXS3AZjoo_S6CzCOUdQJUZwq2KpXe1AQ> <xmx:qkPhXWhQnDar2Aos0dE1nXwNpTG3X0mAsbhZ_8X2s1jEuokcKc0A-g> <xmx:qkPhXXwKgvs3_c0ItmaFmXuGGpKMInkDY_cFKeMSw59t8NnqbF-TDw> <xmx:qkPhXXe_ctJYJY9JPXRs2hLf9HfxiGKar-3YvW8664qFNrGhylbj_w>
Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E75F2306010D; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <c558eb17-2395-0727-cb9b-4455a277b29b@network-heretics.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:28 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/1fQB9DrE38qKSloEwSkaOvKjPhE>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:13:35 -0000
On 11/29/19 12:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption was that > tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination first (or > ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. I would > like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how *exactly* > tools now break. Yes, the assumption was wrong. And it's not possible to enumerate exactly how all of the tools everyone is using now break. But more importantly, that's the wrong question to ask. Many of us realize that when we revise deployed protocols, it's better to NOT to make assumptions about which obscure features of deployed protocols people depend on. Instead we try to maintain strict compatibility when possible, because we realize that we can't reliably know about all of the assumptions that are embedded in existing implementations. Sometimes it's necessary to break strict compatibility, but arguments of the form "nobody depends on feature X" are always dubious and should be interpreted as red flags. For better or worse, the legacy text RFC format is a widely deployed protocol. And while most people these days are probably not using this feature, there are actually quite a few modern printers out there that understand plain text, including form feeds, and also several software programs that paginate text files based on form feeds. (Expecting everyone out there to use Windows is not only incorrect, it's also insulting.) Keith
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John Levine
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Claudio Allocchio
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Paul Hoffman
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Jeffrey Yasskin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Paul Hoffman
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Bob Hinden
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John Levine
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Nick Hilliard
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Eric Heflin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Paul Hoffman
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Keith Moore
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John Levine
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Brian Carpenter
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Salz, Rich
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Salz, Rich
- Handling HTAB in artwork/sourcecode, was: [art] N… Julian Reschke
- Re: Handling HTAB in artwork/sourcecode, was: [ar… John C Klensin
- Re: Handling HTAB in artwork/sourcecode, was: [ar… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Handling HTAB in artwork/sourcecode, was: [ar… John C Klensin
- Re: Handling HTAB in artwork/sourcecode, was: [ar… Julian Reschke
- Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting John C Klensin