Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review request: draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00
"Campos, Simao" <simao.campos@itu.int> Wed, 12 February 2014 10:07 UTC
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From: "Campos, Simao" <simao.campos@itu.int>
To: "'lorenzo@meetecho.com'" <lorenzo@meetecho.com>, "'albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com'" <albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [straw] STRAW WG document review request: draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:06:59 +0000
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Cc: "'bernard_aboba@hotmail.com'" <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "'csp@csperkins.org'" <csp@csperkins.org>, "'megaco@ietf.org'" <megaco@ietf.org>, "'straw@ietf.org'" <straw@ietf.org>, "'avt@ietf.org'" <avt@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review request: draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00
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For information, final publication online of H.248.88 is expected before the end of March 2014. Simao --- Terse message composed in a mobile phone ----- Original Message ----- From: Lorenzo Miniero [mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:12 AM To: Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht) <albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com> Cc: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>; megaco@ietf.org <megaco@ietf.org>; Campos, Simao; straw@ietf.org <straw@ietf.org>; avt@ietf.org <avt@ietf.org>; Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> Subject: Re: [straw] STRAW WG document review request: draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00 Il giorno Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:20:24 +0000 "Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht)" <albrecht.schwarz@alcatel-lucent.com> ha scritto: > Dear All, > > like to provide further review comments: > > Thanks for your detailed comments, Albrecht! We'll definitely address them in the next version of the draft. Lorenzo > > 1. Terminology: > [I-D.ietf-straw-b2bua-taxonomy] could and should be replaced by RFC > 7092. > > > 2. Media plane B2BUA vs RTP topologies: > RFC 7092 differentiates precisely between the signalling (SIP) B2BUA > and media plane B2BUA part. Hence, this draft is just focusing on the > media plane B2BUA entity with scope on RTP/RTCP traffic handling > only. And the "RTP/RTCP B2BUA" behaviour is actually the concept > related to "RTP topologies" (RFC 5117). Conclusions: > > a. this draft > must refer to a) [RFC 5117] and > should refer to b) [draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update] > > b. Terms "media relay", "media-aware relay" & "media-terminator" > could and should be linked (or even replaced) by concrete RTP > topology types (here, I guess: RTP transport translator, RTP media > translator and RTP endsystem) > > > 3. Why reference to "RTP topology" concept? > Because "RTCP handling" is (loosely / tightly) coupled to "RTP > topologies" (see above references). Thus, the "RTCP B2BUA" behaviour > is essentially determined firstly by the RTP topology ... (being > aware that above RTP topology references could still add more > detailed RTCP handling behaviour ... and this is one purpose of > avtcore-rtp-topologies-update in our understanding) > > > 4. Call type: 2-party vs multiparty > => this subject would be inherently addressed as well when referring > to RTP topologies (e.g., RTCP handling by RTP topology "RTP mixer" > etc etc) > > > 5. B2BUAs in integrated and decomposed SBCs: > Fig.1 isn't specific on that aspect, but looks like an integrated SBC > (but signalling isn't indicated), hence could be also just the media > plane B2BUA instance (=> would change the Fig. title). Concerning > decomposed SBCs, following reference might be beneficial: [ITU-T > H.248.88] Gateway control protocol: RTP topology dependent RTCP > handling by ITU-T H.248 media gateways with IP terminations > > Background: H.248.88 defines the media plane B2BUA behaviour > concerning RTCP handling in case of decomposed SBCs following the > H.248 gateway model. H.248.88 is tightly coupled to the RTP topology > concept. > > > 6. Principal challenge for "RTCP B2BUA" behaviour: guess you got > already the feeling that it is fairly difficult to define unambiguous > RTCP handling for the entire plethora of "media plane B2BUA" types > (RTP topologies). This problem could be solved by introducing a "RTCP > service" concept. E.g., H.248.88 uses following service model: a) > basic RTCP service = RTCP capabilities according "core RTP" (i.e., > RFC 3550) b) RTP profile dependent RTCP services = RFCs 3551 | 3711 | > 4585 | 5124 | .... c) supplementary RTCP services = e.g., RTCP XR > (RFC 3611), RFC 5760, RFC 6051 > > Now, H.248.88 makes the assumption that RTCP service categories (a & > b) are tightly coupled to the RTP topology, but category (c) could be > independent of the applied RTP topology. Such a proceeding is > drastically simplifying the complexity space ... and may be also > motivated/justified from network operational point. > > Example: a performance monitoring service (RTCP XR based) as an > network overlay on top of the variety of RTP node types (RTP > transport translator, RTP mixer, etc). > > > > Regards, > > Albrecht > > > PS > > [ITU-T H.248.88] > > is just PRE-PUBLISHED, but the freely available document is expected > to be published soon at the ITU-T web site. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: straw [mailto:straw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba > Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2014 16:25 > To: Lorenzo Miniero > Cc: straw@ietf.org; Colin Perkins; avt@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [straw] STRAW WG document review request: > draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00 > > > > I do not believe that the document even accurately describes a two > person video call intermediated by a MANE/SFU. > > > > > On Feb 4, 2014, at 2:01 AM, "Lorenzo Miniero" > > <lorenzo@meetecho.com<mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Colin, Bernard, > > > > > > thanks for this feedback, this is exactly what we were waiting for! > > > > > > I agree the draft is pretty rough and simple right now. We started > > > this way to gather some feedback on whether or not we were heading > > the > > > right direction in the first place, before delving in some more > > > complex use cases and scenarios. > > > > > > Just as a clarification, it is indeed focused on the simpler > > > two-person case right now, but not only audio, actually: the same > > > principles described in the draft can be effectively used for a > > video > > > call between two people as well (I'm using them in some > > > implementations as well), or at least they should. If you feel this > > is > > > unclear right now, we can try and fix the text to make this clearer. > > > > > > We'll definitely address the scenarios you both mentioned in the > > next > > > versions of the draft. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Lorenzo > > > > > > > > > Il giorno Mon, 3 Feb 2014 08:39:39 -0800 Bernard Aboba > > > <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com<mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>> ha > > scritto: > > > > > >> I agree with Colin that this draft appears focused on a single use > > >> case: a two-person voice call. It does not appear to apply to > >> video > > >> use cases, such as those involving a MANE or Selective Forwarding > > >> Unit. For example, the advice in Section 3.2 on processing of > > >> feedback messages would not necessarily apply for the case of a > > >> MANE/SFU. For example, the MANE/SFU might consume feedback messages > > >> sent from a client and not forward them on to the source, instead > > >> choosing to address the feedback itself. For example, in the case > > >> where the client reports loss, a MANE may respond by reducing > > >> bandwidth going to the client, by for example, dropping one or more > > >> extension layers in SVC, or switching to a lower resolution > >> simulcast > > >> stream. > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Colin Perkins [mailto:csp@csperkins.org] > > >>> Sent: 3. helmikuuta 2014 12:32 > > >>> To: Christer Holmberg > > >>> Cc: avt@ietf.org<mailto:avt@ietf.org> > > >>> Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] STRAW WG document review request: > > >>> draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00 > > >>> > > >>> Christer, > > >>> > > >>> From a quick glance, this draft looks okay as far as it goes, > > >>> although it seems to assume the B2BUA is processing a call with > >>> only > > >>> two parties and a single media flow. For example, Section 3.2 has > > >>> several mentions of "the SSRC" for packets that can contain > >>> multiple > > >>> SSRCs. With RTCWEB and CLUE both supporting multiparty calls with > > >>> multiple media flows, I would suggest that this draft needs to > > >>> consider those use cases more fully. > > >>> > > >>> I see no mention of the rewriting the CSRC list, which is straight > > >>> forward but necessary if an RTP mixer is in use. > > >>> > > >>> The list of RTCP packet types in Section 3.2 is incomplete. The > > >>> draft should certainly discuss rewriting RTCP XR packets, and > >>> should > > >>> probably consider the other RTCP packet types registered with IANA > > >>> (even if only to explicitly list them as being for future > > >>> specification). > > >>> > > >>> There are several cases where that draft says to "properly > >>> replace" > > >>> a changed sequence number. It might be helpful to be specific what > > >>> that means. If the goal is that the B2BUA forwards all packets, > >>> but > > >>> rewrites the RTP sequence number, then the modifications are > > >>> straight forward. If the B2BUA discards, combines, or splits RTP > > >>> packets, then the modifications needed get much more complex, and > > >>> are not obvious in many cases. Defining the scope clearly, and > > >>> explaining what modifications are possible and what need more > > >>> complex rules than described, is important here. > > >>> > > >>> Some of the discussion in the topologies draft is relevant, but > >>> that > > >>> draft isn't cited. > > >>> > > >>> There's no mention of media path security (SRTP, etc.), keying, > >>> and > > >>> how this impacts B2BUAs operating on the media traffic. > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> Colin > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On 29 Jan 2014, at 12:27, Christer Holmberg > > >>> <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> > >>> wrote: > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>> In the STRAW WG we are working on the following document: > > >>>> > > >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-straw-b2bua-rtcp-00 > > >>>> > > >>>> The STRAW WG chairs think it would be very useful, and we would > > >>>> deeply appreciate, if some people from the AVTCORE community > >>>> would > > >>>> have some time and interest in reviewing and providing comments > >>>> on > > >>>> the document (on the STRAW list). Please let me know if you are > > >>>> willing to do such review :) Thanks! > > >>>> > > >>>> Regards, > > >>>> > > >>>> Christer > > >>>> STRAW WG co-chair > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > >>>> avt@ietf.org<mailto:avt@ietf.org> > > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Colin Perkins > > >>> http://csperkins.org/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > >>> avt@ietf.org<mailto:avt@ietf.org> > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > straw mailing list > > straw@ietf.org<mailto:straw@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/straw
- Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review req… Schwarz, Albrecht (Albrecht)
- Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review req… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review req… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [Megaco] [straw] STRAW WG document review req… Campos, Simao