Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between network and end-hosts
Todd Hubers <todd.hubers@gmail.com> Mon, 12 November 2018 23:54 UTC
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From: Todd Hubers <todd.hubers@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:54:20 +1100
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To: spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com
Cc: Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, panrg@irtf.org, nmrg@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between network and end-hosts
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Hi Spencer, I was planning to work primarily with NMRG when I complete the initial draft. I have started a GIT repo, and some mock code. I'm a software and a network engineer. I would love to have standards and code developed side by side. I think the whole domain that I'm looking at will prove to be quite interesting to tease out. Standardisation of a range of solution options is certainly important, but I will be excited to venture into the unknowns of new engineering, by focusing to remove remaining obstacles. Regards, Todd. On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 10:19, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Todd, > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:16 PM Todd Hubers <todd.hubers@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks Michael, >> >> At first glance, RFC 7971 is centralised around P2P data resource >> sharing. I have another scheme in mind which I would like to draft one day >> that may be superior in some cases. This RFC certainly does then propose >> the use of multiple layers in the network to accomplish its goals. However, >> it then lists problems that presumably a multi-layer solution would be >> fixing. >> > > Yes, I'd agree, and appreciate you sending the pointer. > > Mirja is (IIRC) the AD for ALTO now, but I had ALTO for a couple of years > after joining the IESG, and this list was very much the result of looking > at everything the ALTO working group wished they'd been able to know in > order to select "best initial peers". Their use case is pretty different > these days, but I don't think the list of what they wish they could know > has changed very much at all. > > Somewhere between draft-irtf-panrg-what-not-to-do and solutions drafts > (whether in IRTF or IETF), figuring out what has changed so that obstacles > to deployment aren't obstacles turns out to be really important. > > Spencer > > >> The discrepancies are due to various reasons, including, but not limited >>> to the following facts: >>> o The ALTO service is not an admission control system. >>> o The ALTO service >>> >>> * **may not know the instantaneous congestion status of the >>> network.*** >>> * of the network.*** o The ALTO service >>> >>> * **may not know all link bandwidths**, i.e., where the bottleneck >>> really is, and there may be shared bottlenecks.* >>> * bottleneck really is, and there may be shared bottlenecks.* o >>> The ALTO service >>> >>> ***may not have all information about the actual routing*** >>> * routing*** o The ALTO service >>> >>> ***may not know whether the candidate endpoint itself is >>> overloaded*** >>> * itself is overloaded*** o The ALTO service >>> >>> ***may not know whether the candidate endpoint throttles the >>> bandwidth it devotes for the considered application*** >>> * throttles the bandwidth it devotes for the considered >>> application*** o The ALTO service >>> >>> >>> ***may not know whether the candidate endpoint will throttle the >>> data it sends to the client (e.g., because of some fairness algorithm, >>> such as tit for tat).*** >>> * throttle the data it sends to the client (e.g., because of some** >>> fairness algorithm, such as tit for tat).*** >> >> >> For this reason, it is my opinion that the title of the RFC is a >> misnomer: "Application-Layer Traffic Optimization...". However, I do expect >> to find some useful ideas, references, and considerations, and I thank you >> for bringing this to my attention. >> >> I hope to find as many similar RFCs as possible. I would very much like >> to build upon a foundation of the hard work of others, and minimise the >> need to re-invent anything. >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 19:02, Scharf, Michael < >> Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de> wrote: >> >>> Todd, >>> >>> >>> >>> I suggest to have a look at ALTO and specifically at RFC 7971, which >>> discusses such use cases. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please also have a look at the privacy implications of such information, >>> which are mentioned therein. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Panrg [mailto:panrg-bounces@irtf.org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Hubers >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 09, 2018 7:31 AM >>> *To:* kojo=40cs.helsinki.fi@dmarc.ietf.org >>> *Cc:* panrg@irtf.org; spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com >>> *Subject:* Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between network >>> and end-hosts >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Markku, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a standard concept primarily focused on application-layer access >>> to ISP broad contract information and status. However, I already flagged >>> that may also benefit cross-layer collaboration. Please see attached. I'm >>> trying to find collaborators to start an official draft. The draft document >>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarolahti-tsvwg-crosslayer-01] is >>> noteworthy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Will you be wanting to help? Are you aware of any other similar IETF >>> documents? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 12:32, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >>> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Markku, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:15 PM Markku Kojo <kojo= >>> 40cs.helsinki.fi@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, all >>> >>> in the panrg session yesterday I pointed out an older draft that Pasi, >>> Sally and I initiated some 10+ years back: >>> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarolahti-tsvwg-crosslayer-01 >>> >>> Passing through the panrg email archieve after the meeting, I noticed >>> that >>> this draft as well as a few other useful docoments were already pointed >>> out in the early days of the panrg list when the rg was about to be >>> proposed (was not following the list at that time, sorry). >>> >>> Anyways, this draft started a discussion on existing mechanisms between >>> the network and end-hosts and discusses also challenges with such >>> mechanisms. Maybe still useful for panrg? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the reminder! I was vaguely following this research group >>> when it was proposed, so probably noticed the discussion and then started >>> doing telechat reviews and forgot everything except where my diet Pepsi >>> was. >>> >>> >>> >>> Spencer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Panrg mailing list >>> Panrg@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/panrg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Todd Hubers >>> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Todd Hubers >> > -- -- Todd Hubers
- [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between net… Markku Kojo
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Todd Hubers
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Scharf, Michael
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Todd Hubers
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Scharf, Michael
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [PANRG] An earlier draft on signaling between… Todd Hubers