Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as requested -
Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> Mon, 18 December 2017 19:32 UTC
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From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:32:43 -0900
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Subject: Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as requested -
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On 12/18/17 10:15 AM, Paul Wouters wrote: > I also detect a culture clash where I see a lot of praise to proponents > and opponents without technical backing. At the IETF, we try to > reach consensus based on technical merit, for example by stating you > agree or disagree with certain items and why, and don't do "me too" > messages to get a count. Right, this is not how we do consensus. Consensus is not voting without formal votes. At any rate I'm not sure that business models and technical decisions are that cleanly separable. We've decided, for example, that the IETF is not going to develop "walled garden" technologies, and so on. This particular discussion is one we've been having for several decades. When the problem of getting encrypted session signaling (i.e. VoIP) protocols through firewalls and NATs came up there was a similar tension between what people concerned about application security wanted and what middlebox vendors wanted, since middlebox vendors had established a lot of value in their products and were concerned that moving application logic outside of the middlebox (through a middlebox signaling protocol) would undermine that value. There were proposals for session key sharing at that time but the IETF made the decision that this was terrible security practice and instead took an approach that ultimately didn't get any traction because middlebox vendors wouldn't implement it. So, we've been here before. That said, I think the decision not to share session keys was a sound one at that time and remains a sound one today. We can't avoid having business model impacts, and the work being brought to the IETF typically reflects someone's business needs, but I do think we can continue to draw firm lines around clearly unsound security practices. Melinda -- Software longa, hardware brevis PGP fingerprint: 795A 714B CD08 F996 AEFE AB36 FE18 57E9 6B9D A293
- [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Internet Draft posted as requ… Mingliang Pei
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Bret Jordan
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested … Paul Wouters
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Paul Wouters
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft posted as … Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Black, David
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] RE: Internet Draft posted as … Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Bret Jordan
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Diego R. Lopez
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Black, David
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: [saag] Internet Draft pos… Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: [saag] Internet Draft pos… Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Diego R. Lopez
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: [saag] Internet Draft pos… Mark Kennedy
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Roland Zink
- Re: [Patient] Internet Draft posted as requested - Roland Zink
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Black, David
- Re: [Patient] [saag] Internet Draft posted as req… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: [saag] Internet Draft pos… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Patient] [saag] [EXT] Re: Internet Draft pos… Michael Richardson
- [Patient] the IETF participant choice Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Ted Lemon
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Ted Lemon
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: the IETF participant choi… Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: the IETF participant choi… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Patient] [EXT] Re: the IETF participant choi… Brian Witten
- Re: [Patient] the IETF participant choice Kathleen Moriarty