Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 29 October 2018 23:08 UTC
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References: <18A2F994-0E82-48E4-875D-93C674483D49@eggert.org> <20181029160802.GD7258@ubuntu-dmitri> <8268B90E-F109-424C-91A8-DB7BFE208F53@huitema.net> <CABkgnnU7W-_o_EGZWpJvTGRSm0KiL-hS7q_oQ6kT3LBoNKHGhw@mail.gmail.com> <5E1AB9AC-D24F-4E0D-9925-57816C5314A4@trammell.ch>
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:08:09 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+9kkMBb+-YYS3vvhvA1HZJuYZ7Q9cEBF=CW2FR08MPK0X=XoA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion
To: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com
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Just to add one additional piece of data here that was the basis of a lot of discussion in the design team: consider whether the handshake alone discloses the data you are trying to protect. For the case where you are trying to obscure a hidden path segment like a VPN, a comparison of handshake time to expected time is almost certainly enough. regards, Ted On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 3:58 PM Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote: > hi Martin, Christian, all, > > > On 29 Oct 2018, at 23:29, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 3:54 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> > wrote: > >> I think the strongest objection to the spin bit was put up by Marten > during the last interim: measuring the RTT with the spin bit discloses the > use of hidden path segments like VPN. This issue was not discussed during > the privacy analysis. > > > > I had assumed that was part of the analysis and it was covered by the > > assumption that spinning could be disabled > > +1. Probabilistically disabling spinning, which seems necessary if we want > some grease to help us reserve the right to change the semantics of the bit > at the spin bit's location in the wire image, should ensure that endpoints > that want to disable spinning for their own reasons will have a large > anonymity set to hide in, even in a future with perfect implementation and > deployment of the spin bit. > > >> One solution would be to remove the spin bit from the spec, trading off > better privacy for worse management. I am considering another solution in > which privacy sensitive clients hide the RTT by controlling the spin, for > example spinning at fixed intervals. I plan testing that option in Picoquic. > > > > I've done a little thinking about this one, and it might conflict with > > the natural signals the transport emits, along the lines of what > > Andrew McGregor has mentioned on a couple of occasions. If the spin > > bit is enabled, then privacy-sensitive endpoints will need to make a > > hard call regarding standing out. > > > > Note also that you probably can't hide the fact that you aren't at the > > same network location as the address you are using. Spoofing a > > shorter RTT is impossible in general because you have to assume edges > > that haven't arrived yet. If there are no edges you expose the > > charade. > > You cannot reliably hide the fact that you're not at the same network > location as the address you're using, spin bit or no. Most of the methods I > know of for detecting people trying to hide where they're coming from don't > rely on RTT at all. (Yes, I'm a Netflix customer who relies on Hurricane > Electric's tunnel broker for IPv6 connectivity, why do you ask? ;) ) > > The recent academic work I'm aware of in this space (Weinberg et al "How > to Catch When Proxies Lie", to appear at IMC this week) uses minimum RTT > (with injected active measurement traffic) to conservatively draw exclusion > circles to show that VPN providers that promise exits in certain countries > probably don't actually deliver them. Not being vulnerable to this kind of > exclusion analysis requires that you actually inject latency, not just in > the spin bit, but over the entire flow (including the handshake). > > RTT *higher* (even much higher) than an expected range for a given address > pair isn't reliable enough to derive any sort of verdict from, due to the > nature of delay and delay variability in the Internet. > > So while I guess you can lie with the spin bit (even using rudimentary > signal processing magic to take an assumed real RTT and make it look like a > given lower target RTT, as long as you're not too worried about getting > caught when your assumptions fail to hold), it's probably neither necessary > nor sufficient to do so to hide a VPN exit. It's cheaper and more effective > to just turn it off and hope. > > Cheers, > > Brian > >
- Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Lars Eggert
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Christian Huitema
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Martin Thomson
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Ted Hardie
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Christian Huitema
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Marcus Ihlar
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Jana Iyengar
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Christian Huitema
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Martin Thomson
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Jana Iyengar
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Kazuho Oku
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Kazuho Oku
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Ian Swett
- SV: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Marcus Ihlar
- Re: SV: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion alexandre.ferrieux
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Roland Zink
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Christian Huitema
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Kazuho Oku
- RE: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Mike Bishop
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Roland Zink
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Roland Zink
- RE: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Roni Even (A)
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Kazuho Oku
- Re: Structuring the BKK spin bit discussion Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen