Re: [abnf-discuss] Should RFC 7405 be part of STD 68 now?

Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> Tue, 19 December 2023 15:45 UTC

Return-Path: <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
X-Original-To: abnf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: abnf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF54C14F5F7 for <abnf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:45:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.011
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alum.mit.edu
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZEvSamRltRc for <abnf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam10on2061.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.93.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2434C151070 for <abnf-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:45:07 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=fdDvNeLmZsEjS8BAiyOkg+S9ElKzoRLZn1tIo6Q5YGImpB6QRjOTFqUz/89kuuraV12BNRg3mKPOGxMPVeMAK/CBOgQl1ITY2a0uvXJ9uKIRWVSKudkAl3gmQgV7mjBCEVwQos/53McANGWwmYPdgesh2nZ5qbd58dUMDxbumlQr1YugJcGUJvD0wrAR9kj97WfwGnb8Qv5tbaj7zXuwIVPiShNz2o5D5TJmRfbiCxgiwAWWrryQPDw5DzxG4rw/nSR83xOP43tQcZYbnPFdwi9t/D+S1NUzrv3H3Yu7+ug1V0EZk48U00aE2u8/N3MeH4HeEfsRQsc1YWjOd+m49Q==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=aogjA9tKVXE5eYAHSl127UfxXazaTLgK6NRbmk3IzpA=; b=ktj2J/E6hL/4XO9xF5CiKOGwdxbHZGRslDniG1ayTKKZ5+LFUNEYYfEIfnsDpGz2/vOE84AQ1nrI4utMILt979lti5BgO6bo9ja0x+WF4fDMGfIayF9HkrCb0aE6/RQDtM41AfkmHqOnp1jVLMZ2qCvuiQqIgqVAft0SirXI9Y0vI/LwfeugxvcLpI+4cgONcfV4KqbR7yrYy7ebnYkg+VXFgbCUH6/6doRLy3Ip4UxZKFbiQDE/urpVjTy4+s9/9EDw9Y78PeNONj4J2ITHDivEF3c0834Aslt1BXVIojWjtKtOOLP/1sChpJyoM1lVZYe1Rl4f7qDhPx88rk4YOQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass (sender ip is 18.7.68.33) smtp.rcpttodomain=ietf.org smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; dmarc=pass (p=none sp=none pct=100) action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed); arc=none (0)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=aogjA9tKVXE5eYAHSl127UfxXazaTLgK6NRbmk3IzpA=; b=ZH/PKp0Wqc7U9tHiSkdNr+j6ul64v6VGcKOYxrqHLdNYhOnbWIi+QyVO5XdUmDauhqGkBN7L67ZwM5QMp1giyDIBMyIe5SIDPlqPHk8PikbAMhhjWEtiDW2T33pX0axQSS7WWm7Ea8rtru+2duLxbYU0au2/b/getIFVBlK0uu0=
Received: from SJ0PR03CA0221.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:39f::16) by PH8PR12MB8605.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:510:1cc::6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7091.38; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:45:05 +0000
Received: from CO1PEPF000042A7.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:39f:cafe::cf) by SJ0PR03CA0221.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:a03:39f::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7091.38 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:45:05 +0000
X-MS-Exchange-Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 18.7.68.33) smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=pass action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu;
Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of alum.mit.edu designates 18.7.68.33 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.7.68.33; helo=outgoing-alum.mit.edu; pr=C
Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (18.7.68.33) by CO1PEPF000042A7.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.167.243.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7113.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:45:04 +0000
Received: from [192.168.1.52] (c-73-143-251-114.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [73.143.251.114]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 3BJFj1Gk032554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Dec 2023 10:45:03 -0500
Message-ID: <600b6af9-b128-4013-9feb-ab7d41e240a6@alum.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 10:45:01 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Content-Language: en-US
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: abnf-discuss@ietf.org
References: <4DD498CF-63E6-48E6-A75A-6E72B72F372E@tzi.org> <5f14c9b7-cefc-40fb-b05a-e63a60d01e02@alum.mit.edu> <C519D2EF-82C0-4A1F-BD4E-1B698E9A270F@tzi.org>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <C519D2EF-82C0-4A1F-BD4E-1B698E9A270F@tzi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: CO1PEPF000042A7:EE_|PH8PR12MB8605:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 376b7f48-a548-470d-4939-08dc00a978a8
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: +KoPzf295AKlNtMHMpxQDK/0HYau045/NjModoxGpGh71oCfwO0HtDjRL/8MX7VSa9tYfIqIp7j6dhPanLzDJpqFOo+V5PQ9Zw2qTS5sj5hdauutI11TfgoCsJKD5AQvb5c/ZRjsJJ0/IBZTcs76ChPl7NGD/sTlppZg5mpkxnMAXnkM6aKNkQRtuIso7OZfK4oXgOook+YZ8VLyifS+xY6xZK6TqnzcEIgySjWxmShr1V/ESgI/oVibfY761f5JTn7GB1+Y3xitjJOhvs0E7fVf231uQyohCSA3aTe2Ld1ptpAjunNrLZO4Ke4u2xNwp3aXzd+gBsMUzAyM5Nltg1AmFYOilx9th5Wj4rIQtA8zTQUtYPo9XNNFgzdseZzG1CvMl2lLaAm/mD2r6h5hYGW4fIDSV3k+YDofH1Fs1J8G6n85SWoXdL/6tcnYvlq+N8AOoidxXEESUUIs39yW8nQqKdbhgrvRrphZktkh+rzdCw+IBned8OIzQ7OQROkSHocAHk/dFaclvwhry9nXVk0FKaGKBsobEqNgPTS/zTbOZNU2M++mmEDu0gcEZJxoG/GKBkbZuzqbLaqMLlo5xjWjYHxVW1gXDyaCIRCeW5JpeQsZ/Sh6NbAQV1BuBk7y29pUomBSFAg2wBvCDtZKBLtcVlH+J8MHALKZiSO+kZYWjKnwqWzl0Jk0YrqgYR4vFHJyMWwfAek5aOuS+vErhxFkcAa3vsKI9icsw6M0xTu/weXgf/W4hDvGlP25Hefw
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230031)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(396003)(376002)(230922051799003)(64100799003)(82310400011)(451199024)(1800799012)(186009)(46966006)(36840700001)(31686004)(40480700001)(956004)(66574015)(26005)(2616005)(336012)(86362001)(356005)(82740400003)(75432002)(31696002)(41320700001)(47076005)(7596003)(5660300002)(53546011)(786003)(36860700001)(8676002)(4326008)(316002)(70586007)(70206006)(8936002)(6916009)(2906002)(41300700001)(478600001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Dec 2023 15:45:04.9941 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 376b7f48-a548-470d-4939-08dc00a978a8
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu]
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO1PEPF000042A7.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH8PR12MB8605
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/abnf-discuss/FwhYJY3tSBrzaI-ntv0X_OIUfEI>
Subject: Re: [abnf-discuss] Should RFC 7405 be part of STD 68 now?
X-BeenThere: abnf-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "General discussion about tools, activities and capabilities involving the ABNF meta-language" <abnf-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/abnf-discuss>, <mailto:abnf-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/abnf-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:abnf-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:abnf-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/abnf-discuss>, <mailto:abnf-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:45:10 -0000

On 12/19/23 10:20 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2023, at 15:31, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> As author of RFC 7405 I'm biased.
> 
> Understood.
> So I have a different question for you:
> Do you think RFC 7405 is ready for Internet Standard from a technical point of view?
> Or is there any unsolved problem or nagging concern?

AFAIK there have never been any problems or concerns.

The issues when doing it were:
- should it be done at all?
- which syntax should be used for denoting it?

I think there were arguments for less arcane syntax. (E.g., using single 
quotes for case sensitive text). The syntax used was chosen because it 
was consistent with existing syntax for modifiers of other constant 
types. It is a more overt syntax that can't easily be overlooked by a 
reader.

Of course I think it was worth doing. I was motivated to do it in part 
because RFC4566 (SDP) had many case sensitive string values specified as 
hex constants. It was unpleasant to read. In RFC8866 (bis revision to 
4566) I was able to replace those with case sensitive string constants. 
The result is more readable.

	Thanks,
	Paul

>> I'm interested to see what others think.
> 
> Definitely.
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
>