Re: [Acme] tls-alpn-01 spec: TLS-SNI history

Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com> Thu, 21 June 2018 12:40 UTC

Return-Path: <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com>
X-Original-To: acme@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: acme@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDE4130DCE for <acme@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:40:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.796
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.795, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=digicert.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZA2jLo1N9_40 for <acme@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail1.bemta24.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta24.messagelabs.com [67.219.250.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EF611277C8 for <acme@ietf.org>; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [67.219.251.52] (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)) by server-2.bemta.az-c.us-west-2.aws.symcld.net id 7C/FD-01612-4DC9B2B5; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:40:52 +0000
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKJsWRWlGSWpSXmKPExsVyXm9xoe7lOdr RBq9mKFiseh5o8fb0AWaL97unszgwe7w5fYbFY8mSn0wet7vnsAUwR7Fm5iXlVySwZlxce4Kp 4IZzxdXpU5kbGM87dDFycbAI9DBLdGw7wQTiCAn0M0lcvDubuYuRE8i5yyjR8U4YxGYTMJC4t vc4E4gtIhAh0fp1OyuIzSwgLXH7x252EFtYwFRi5rW7bBA1ZhJHOvazQ9hWEmdfLgDrZRFQlf jZsw+shlcgRuLWx4nsELtyJNqv3AWr4RQwkXjx/SsLiM0oICbx/dQaJohd4hK3nswHsyUERCQ eXjzNBmGLSrx8/I8Voj5GYu7nQ1BxZYmLqxcxQ9iyEpfmdzOCPCkhsIVJYtfriywQCV2JD1On QhX5Spxq/80GUXSCUWLB5mlQ27QkdnQfgbKzJb4v2w21wUfidNt8RghbTmJV70MWiOa9zBJnD kyHSshINE/ezg6RuM8q8X7iAlaIn1Mkpqw6xDaBUXsWkvdmAdUxCyxglLi2qpllFjicBCVOzn zCAlGkJbGk6T87hC0vsf3tHOZZjOxAto3ElhSIqKLElO6HUBVmEm3nPrItYORYxWiRVJSZnlG Sm5iZo2toYKBraGika2hsoWtkaKKXWKWbrFdarFueWlyia6SXWF6sV1yZm5yTopeXWrKJEZjk GIBgB+P3QymHGCU5mJREeZc0a0cL8SXlp1RmJBZnxBeV5qQWH2KU4eBQkuCdMBsoJ1iUmp5ak ZaZA0y3MGkJDh4lEd5qkDRvcUFibnFmOkTqFKMux50tk3qYhVjy8vNSpcR5c4DJW0gApCijNA 9uBCz1X2KUlRLmZQQ6SoinILUoN7MEVf4VozgHo5IwryPIKp7MvBK4Ta+AjmACOaJZC+SIkkS ElFQD47tCx1qed6981mqun3uP7Y5irOuTQxuKVW3MIpxLpu9imd0he2T1VbMG46UFf3yijH9X 8p4vWXj/vJnacp+7uTvEK3u4dpjvu/JcfL1C2IK1m7cv01ypVGUf76nFFxt0hfvwOZtHuzOuB rureFaIfsnJY696se7gkb2BOzvWRYdoPyhYzf7lqhJLcUaioRZzUXEiACoRlqL4AwAA
X-Env-Sender: tim.hollebeek@digicert.com
X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-364.messagelabs.com!1529584850!252014!1
X-Originating-IP: [207.46.163.113]
X-SYMC-ESS-Client-Auth: mailfrom-relay-check=pass
X-StarScan-Received:
X-StarScan-Version: 9.9.15; banners=-,-,-
X-VirusChecked: Checked
Received: (qmail 11405 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2018 12:40:51 -0000
Received: from mail-sn1nam01lp0113.outbound.protection.outlook.com (HELO NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) (207.46.163.113) by server-5.tower-364.messagelabs.com with AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted SMTP; 21 Jun 2018 12:40:51 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=digicert.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=iVXl3lgYWnHRDBT+CQGCrSRBHMK89NrIjZoyfi3acio=; b=iA7psvEOI6P2sTO0SyM38LjHXzCPB+jMjYm6hmHhcPk88AP9TqLhQGG+0WvTjEBbDoj18E6gTOEE3Na6xXX9lKa0rb8jpKwSwzPvXJhoFAv2+yYAt432ROBsNemPwrfQ/ws/W//ysHsuRUUKkwHUI1l3Jhc3FVBAuABSoE9a5VQ=
Received: from BN6PR14MB1106.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (10.173.161.15) by BN6PR14MB1411.namprd14.prod.outlook.com (10.172.150.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.884.20; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:40:49 +0000
Received: from BN6PR14MB1106.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b914:e52:554d:c7bb]) by BN6PR14MB1106.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b914:e52:554d:c7bb%7]) with mapi id 15.20.0884.010; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:40:49 +0000
From: Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com>
To: Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>, Felipe Gasper <felipe@felipegasper.com>
CC: ACME WG <acme@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Acme] tls-alpn-01 spec: TLS-SNI history
Thread-Index: AQHUCC3wJJU0aPTfVUuvVtQ7dbuS2aRo43yAgAHDa7A=
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:40:49 +0000
Message-ID: <BN6PR14MB11060497CCB0337F3B8CEC4983760@BN6PR14MB1106.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <4A77AEB5-0982-47C2-86AC-BD99D8D9E6F3@felipegasper.com> <20180620093445.GA23561@LK-Perkele-VII>
In-Reply-To: <20180620093445.GA23561@LK-Perkele-VII>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [209.181.220.252]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR14MB1411; 7:9CvUaULqe0fasUlEdPZ1IcT50aUe8vLUlXFL/pFh6r7habZ13/H5hAv9R8YjtbPj/ODy39NZqUgM3Kx+ZhBXcMyUVW8uvWUjwoyH9e19TSnHJreUgFiDNxJ+uDn5BTzsU+XTFcCFGAc2BeVHmfbP/bYoOiEZpHKyLY2t4eYZSo7aYH3TZwprtsp1NyJDlKusBJ950N8TbSktRAxualuzi0UBjOZnw0pc6yI/YBP/iYaYSI2cVca4yQ0e2eQas33D
x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS;
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6599333d-7901-4883-ff79-08d5d77437ae
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652020)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(5600026)(711020)(2017052603328)(7153060)(49563074)(7193020); SRVR:BN6PR14MB1411;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR14MB1411:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BN6PR14MB14111EC694AFCFCE85F46B1D83760@BN6PR14MB1411.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863)(192374486261705);
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(102415395)(6040522)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3231254)(944501410)(52105095)(3002001)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123558120)(20161123564045)(20161123562045)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BN6PR14MB1411; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN6PR14MB1411;
x-forefront-prvs: 07106EF9B9
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(396003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(39380400002)(189003)(199004)(66066001)(53936002)(316002)(110136005)(4326008)(5660300001)(68736007)(6116002)(105586002)(7736002)(3846002)(25786009)(186003)(106356001)(6246003)(26005)(97736004)(8676002)(86362001)(5250100002)(76176011)(59450400001)(9686003)(3280700002)(2906002)(305945005)(14454004)(81156014)(81166006)(476003)(44832011)(102836004)(11346002)(486006)(446003)(2900100001)(99286004)(7696005)(478600001)(8936002)(6436002)(33656002)(55016002)(74316002)(99936001)(229853002)(6506007)(3660700001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN6PR14MB1411; H:BN6PR14MB1106.namprd14.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: digicert.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: LOcLR6Nr8JSzCj6JnGBewHjyDr3VDQ0idz1rGIKsYLkTSIL0MClOPwSvAbfhG9nwXjQTbLy9zFUaTl+HQ29ov6xuwGRwqzSZ/GS+HNGHwQBhTL1szWlOXfqK3QPfhP/b6NBtoAToA3FM0bCZopNxxBqVrjQxt8Lrg+ycOnXDUOiA5ZoJM4ZUR6VfHS66DYf3fLpaqGuhWTKOvJn+ZLjxn8MFuECh+dC4GLO/4dQNHveTY/pjIUf1sOXwfheL+AYZxMPtpU2Np7JL0xcrsBqOjUyOFJFs+NGhx6plhW+TJDIj2aVdGOtFA5UZ0NqGQ1vd89cfCgouAXEaXLtXF0Zi0g==
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="2.16.840.1.101.3.4.2.1"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_084D_01D4093B.8B7AAC60"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: digicert.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6599333d-7901-4883-ff79-08d5d77437ae
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Jun 2018 12:40:49.3030 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf813fa1-bde5-4e75-9479-f6aaa8b1f284
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR14MB1411
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/acme/J2vidigcuDWHkaSSh7adfUSEcVI>
Subject: Re: [Acme] tls-alpn-01 spec: TLS-SNI history
X-BeenThere: acme@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: Automated Certificate Management Environment <acme.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/acme>, <mailto:acme-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/acme/>
List-Post: <mailto:acme@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:acme-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/acme>, <mailto:acme-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:40:56 -0000

> TLS-ALPN addresses the latter problem by requiring the server_name to match
> the validation target (which is AFACIT also required by the Baseline
> Requirements). This stops claiming arbitary names from allowing
> misvalidations.

This was certainly the intent.  Never in over two years of some pretty
detailed discussions about the mechanics of validation did anyone ever
propose it was reasonable to validate domain name A by contacting
the web server for a name that is not A (except for the approved the _prefix 
stuff).

I realize that after it was pointed out that TLS-SNI was horribly broken
in this regard, there were attempts by some to retroactively claim that
such behavior was compliant, but I always found those explanations a
bit tortured and unconvincing.  Certainly if I a large commercial CA had
made them, they would have been laughed at and ridiculed.

I would actually love to work with some people on updating the CABF
method 10 validation requirements in order to properly express the
security requirements that ALPN-01 satisfies.  The whole TLS-SNI
experience showed that Method 10 does not have sufficiently rigorous
requirements to guarantee it actually validates what it claims to validate.
Since the CABF VWG is currently working on adding more security rigor
to all the approved validation methods, it would be a great time to fix
up Method 10.

ALPN-01 is a much better validation method, and I'm very thankful
to all the people who worked hard to come up with a replacement,
which as far as I can tell from looking at it briefly (I wish I had more time)
looks pretty secure and robust.

-Tim