Re: [Anima] Autonomic Control Plane Based on IPv4 draft - 00

["Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <[e-mail]>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Duzongpeng [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: 27 July 2015 09:13
> To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner
> Cc: Michael Richardson; anima; Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Autonomic Control Plane Based on IPv4 draft - 00
> 
> Hi, Toerless
> 
> 	I agree that IPv6 will be the future trend, and an IPv6 only ACP is
> simpler and kind of "sufficient".
> 
> 	However, when connecting to an IPv4 only NOC application devices,
> it requires the use of IPv4 to IPv6 NAT as said in section 2.1.4 of your draft
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-01.txt.
> 
> 	In this situation, would it be simpler to provide an IPv4 ACP for the
> network operator if this operator has no plan to update to IPv6, and all are
> IPv4?
> 	As talked before in the maillist, there are some this kind of
> operators (not the big ones).
> 
> 	I still do not see any harm to provide this IPv4 ACP option.

I agree with that, it doesn't cause "harm", but I still would like to understand why we want to support it. "not causing harm" is generally not an accepted justification in the IETF. :-)  

There are two ways to support IPv4, which do you propose?
(a) - dual stack in the ACP  <--- my guess
(b) - an IPv4 only ACP. 

Which one do you suggest, or both? (a) would be more resource consuming, and introducing more complexity. (b) would IMO not be acceptable. 

Everything can be done, for sure, I am just (very) sceptical about the need. Even in the NOC. 

Michael 

> Best Regards
> Zongpeng Du
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 2:12 PM
> To: John Strassner
> Cc: Michael Richardson; anima; Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Autonomic Control Plane Based on IPv4 draft - 00
> 
> The ACP draft is currently very lightweight explaining why IP6-only for the
> ACP is proposed. Please let me know if you think we should expand on that,
> eg: check out the following text as a starting point:
> 
> Cheers
>     Toerless
> 
> The ACP is intended to provide ONLY IPv6 for a variety of reasons.
> 
> On the overall design implementation and operations side of the ACP,
> relying only on one network layer improves simplicity, reliability and
> scalability. The ACP provides protection/security for the traffic it carries.
> Each network layer it would need to support would require another set of
> security associations which may not only be control resources, but also HW
> resources. Each network layer requires its own routing tables and routing
> process calculations.
> 
> The ACP is intended to carry ASA control traffic and other OAM traffic:
> 
> ASAs are new designs so it is easily possible to have them rely on only a
> single network layer for their ACP signaling,
> IPv6 even if they intend to serve multiple address families in the data-
> plane.
> 
> All widely used OAM protocols in SP, Enterprise and IoT do support
> IPv6: SNMP, TFTP, SSH/SCP, Radius, Diameter, ...  Current and future going
> IETF work result will not result anymore in any IPv4-only OAM protocols, but
> it may easily result in IPv6 only OAM solutions
> (example: Frank Brockners work - referrence).
> 
> .. (better/additional text welcome)..
> 
> Cheers
>     Toerless
> 
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 02:36:11PM -0700, John Strassner wrote:
> > I agree with Michael B, Brian, and Michael R
> >
> >
> > regards.
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> > [e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > > I concur with MichaelR and Brian, this doesn't make sense to me.
> > >
> > > Before going down this route, I'd like to see very clear use cases
> > > that require it.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Anima [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Brian E
> > > > Carpenter
> > > > Sent: 23 July 2015 19:04
> > > > To: Michael Richardson; anima
> > > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Autonomic Control Plane Based on IPv4 draft -
> > > > 00
> > > >
> > > > On 24/07/2015 04:47, Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Duzongpeng <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > > > >     > Its purpose is to describe an IPv4 ACP, which is helpful for the
> > > > >     > deployment of ACP when the IPv6 has not replace all IPv4.
> > > > >
> > > > > I simply don't understand; and I wonder if you understand what
> > > > > the ACP
> > > is.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is all new code and new (virtual) wires.  I don't see what
> > > > > the state of
> > > > > IPv4 matters.  Maybe this is part of the Data-Plane ACP "confusion".
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very much opposed to this document, and I want to suggest
> > > > > that we make it out of scope in our charter.
> > > >
> > > > I would argue it a bit differently. The IPv6-based ACP will create
> > > > itself automatically, simply because all autonomic nodes will
> > > > contain the code that knows how to do this (IPv6 stack, SLAAC, the
> > > > IPv6 routing protocol,
> > > and
> > > > some sort of ACP-creating engine to drive it all). This requires
> > > > no work
> > > or
> > > > decision by the network operators. So the question of whether IPv6
> > > > is already deployed in the network is totally irrelevant - the ACP
> > > > simply doesn't care. Also the operators don't need to care what
> > > > protocol the
> > > ACP is
> > > > running. Actually it could be running ISO/OSI Connectionless
> > > > Network Protocol or Novell Netware - it simply doesn't matter outside
> the ACP.
> > > > But we have chosen IPv6 because it has useful properties that IPv4
> lacks.
> > > >
> > > >    Brian
> > > >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > regards,
> > John
> 
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> 
> 
> --
> ---
> Toerless Eckert, [e-mail]
> 
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