[Audit] Re: Updates on the proposed Audit charter - Please review and comment!

Sumit Ahuja <sumit@mainlabs.ai> Wed, 09 September 2026 20:19 UTC

Return-Path: <sumit@mainlabs.ai>
X-Original-To: audit@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: audit@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80CCC137ECEF9 for <audit@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Sep 2026 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1788985160; bh=PrrHfqyP59dcS7w3YuMZ1qsNuRnearmDCaEgI3fc2pc=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=GAIdbV81DGLIa3+fznO3HS1l6acjbj03kc7JAkaBPmkM1XEML0kSxd2ZKCCQvy+FS 3UA9Ys+DgVhoXK1CJt3f2sxrFavXyY4NSHox3UwnwkMpfw43QdoetzFpOF4Z9lP3NH YNBnaFog3U/rOxN4VJ0eYuPuA5FB60LdBw/6QjkU=
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mainlabs-ai.20251104.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WyPY6XRbwDA for <audit@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Sep 2026 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25A9C137ECEF4 for <audit@ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Sep 2026 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-52e2d1bdbc0so41069471cf.0 for <audit@ietf.org>; Wed, 09 Sep 2026 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mainlabs-ai.20251104.gappssmtp.com; s=20251104; t=1788985159; x=1789589959; darn=ietf.org; h=to:cc:date:message-id:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to:content-type; bh=PrrHfqyP59dcS7w3YuMZ1qsNuRnearmDCaEgI3fc2pc=; b=gUKvNdurfmZqrMURUe8RsOrSw/+Bb9CxV7gKlkBKkcd0myuoFRYdJJOqieLJx8IuK1 TApOzQhi4MZDYvo4Ha2mLBsxgh7RecVxQcQiUS9PlLKorIMHtkT7suaizD14PGZmb2UR Ma0gWbJuUkFbv3QHqe2dgLDt7DVeU62ay3R29I19u6vKpFvCY2IXVG/h2rsZoFXTcbcZ ZDIgon2daPRIGLBG3ffH3/X28hNB43m7Uvl46hHooFBCF28P50iAjrHrgrdfEWAft9+K Q9EsXYlt46EUNpGoD8ZSiHxPnkMHb6mgjntqw2y8mMZTMUGnRKB04LHFKFctleLfSd6z CBuA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1788985159; x=1789589959; h=to:cc:date:message-id:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:from:x-gm-gg :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to :content-type; bh=PrrHfqyP59dcS7w3YuMZ1qsNuRnearmDCaEgI3fc2pc=; b=GDqpC2SKuDa1M14cWy2wmSoJAZAFtR3leY0bOC/vhTwWQzMwD3JpWltACZwjm7BBgV bfdz6RNS+friORgtc3VqOvQiJI6BMBqA7LOtC+qzvlIUCoyqxKSJSRyLwRxmIuGmBn3r 8JJAg9Wk8ZwA0Ip3j8BmKMzz+NQ66eIdjNEB49vyrYkVZpE/fy32Qc4Z4dPVCaePI2jD 0519SUU6h6Rmf7kalyOGw3RNp5l1znzS8Yu7NNljYHvv+yIZntlhMkqjY3IheseviCJM NkfQXUNtwKgcnbzOmMAl1wO9NScSOJwMgA2qa6zkhdiHfdi9HxjWNMPvNmZhCe/A2LUH fDVw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AFuF++k51atHa8v8/RvBeRU7eQDO4QqBJ/RF5L4gG0JtvxazNiTSNFe+ cuqvQDWylheIrAdXDcmbnJSqOkeCoTTEq+AMInUcw5G6wtDDPeei/bIq4KHNVCGZCXlycmYMjt4 zmZ47damOPjQ=
X-Gm-Gg: AYBFou3RZMJZJCCl/TXCLdwZYVdZ6prTH5XbrAwC5p+7ASbSxGkWUFQFEIEDp7LbQRn cA7FIw8Nm82Eaa8MOPhcm4eIqifVlPl5y5YQVGaHdycUd4m1+OYObXmXgmEOcGVqIhgdlDW+pWd 5AtgkZybBO4mxISkxePL2qDRHY3ITfyzWz8teNJKX4f2rTGiDTOXpxNm09Hi67ew4+/GJEuM7kC TGQ5l8nG6a+u3jiFf1vWNWXINgJ0QpTizo+de5NbygFwoUn0NYK7V9HEYiM27vs0fTyM/c+NwSC JPq3XYxmqwevWJPNIKA8Zxl/CsXeFVQfsxMItUyU8IyrVeZgi6A8o2fUbdXw383Nh11LgOZUpQW lRJ+z5FbIOWdBndUf0bbYkltXDRBewYUhZWYHq6KD8i5HIY483O89z69i7fFW9Azbl1CaHOSCvm qs26Fej7cIo2bot0v4PYS/eBzKBYHPB/a0pmV6+shk0xRZxjXDswovCz3i+hGvwkiExyt9fPZQn phO+zI4EKlDC9cKdXA=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1a9e:b0:530:b2e1:8e39 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-530b2e19b68mr17820961cf.52.1788985159458; Wed, 09 Sep 2026 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([173.205.213.226]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-910406871b6sm155316206d6.32.2026.09.09.13.19.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Sep 2026 13:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sumit Ahuja <sumit@mainlabs.ai>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.700.51.1.1\))
Message-Id: <DAFD5010-FA57-44F4-A655-9E49D59A4397@mainlabs.ai>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2026 16:19:08 -0400
To: audit@ietf.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.700.51.1.1)
Message-ID-Hash: O4ZNHC6DK6AUW3U3CQ44ZFPCCXG3JZAS
X-Message-ID-Hash: O4ZNHC6DK6AUW3U3CQ44ZFPCCXG3JZAS
X-MailFrom: sumit@mainlabs.ai
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: ietf@kuehlewind.net, henk.birkholz@ietf.contact
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [Audit] Re: Updates on the proposed Audit charter - Please review and comment!
List-Id: "Agent Use of Delegation and Interaction Traceability (AUDIT)" <audit.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/audit/CwVvTS6Pp4YFpgnjKQWLGS0zSWs>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/audit>
List-Help: <mailto:audit-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:audit-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:audit@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:audit-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:audit-leave@ietf.org>

Mirja,

Right. The missing record could mean the task was never executed, or that the record was never created. Those are different facts, and a verifier holding the records cannot tell them apart. That was the point I was trying to make.

Where I would differ slightly is when the record is not complete and further investigation is needed, it is available to an operator inside the domain. It is often not available to the party the audit exists for, who holds the records and can reach nobody. For that party the two cases stay indistinguishable permanently.

On the transparency log: it detects a record that existed and was later removed.

So yes to your closing point. If the charter says explicitly that an absent record is ambiguous between not-performed and not-recorded, and that resolving it is outside what the data models can do alone, the data model work inherits the right limit instead having discovered later.

Sumit P. Ahuja
Main Labs