[Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting
daboo at isamet.com (Cyrus Daboo) Sun, 27 February 2005 20:48 UTC
From: "daboo at isamet.com"
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:48:55 +0000
Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting
In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6753@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com>
References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6753@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <95EF22638014502C02E074BE@ninevah.local>
X-Date: Sun Feb 27 20:48:55 2005
Hi Cameron, --On February 27, 2005 7:04:13 PM -0800 Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote: > While I appreciate the semantic difference between these two application > verbs - most users are not quite that savvy. The result? Most of the ics > files published to apple.com (and icalshare.com) are NOT of the > Export... flavor - and that means most people are not including what is > needed for interop. You must admit it is at least user unintuitive, and > at worst a little sloppy. > Sure - if they 'publish' invalid iCalendar data then that is a real interop problem. Hopefully someone has complained to them about it and they will fix it... -- Cyrus Daboo From mvl at exedo.nl Mon Feb 28 08:46:09 2005 From: mvl at exedo.nl (Michiel van Leeuwen) Date: Mon Feb 28 08:46:12 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt (fwd) In-Reply-To: <42221B43.7040003@Royer.com> References: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> <422204DF.7050900@exedo.nl> <42221B43.7040003@Royer.com> Message-ID: <42234AD1.6050300@exedo.nl> Thanks for your long answer. Doug Royer wrote: > Yes. We need more vendors to post their issues. They do not > want to do that. (see below) That doesn't make it easier. The goal of calsify is to fix issues with ical, but it can't know the issues. How can it fix them? Maybe it can start by looking at issues in applications that do want to publish their list of bug. open-source. (sunbird, kpim and evolution come to mind. iirc they have a public bug list) > (2) Time zones are only needed with recurrence rules. > Most implementations do not really need recurrence rules > as they do not do scheduling and do not do METHOD:PUBLISH, > they just use them. That is a solution, not a problem. The fact that it can be differently doesn't mean there is a problem to fix. > Do I have to compare your TZID=PST to my TZID=PST to > see if they are the same? (hint - yes) Yeah, this one is fun. Maybe it could be solved by namespacing tzid's. The ones without a namespace would be from the global registry. Maybe also version them. (otoh, that still has issues with old events.) Michiel X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.29]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1SGk9aZ030440 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:46:10 -0800 Received: from [10.0.0.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1SGk8JQ085699 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <42234AD1.6050300@exedo.nl> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:09 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050214 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> <422204DF.7050900@exedo.nl> <42221B43.7040003@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <42221B43.7040003@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt (fwd) X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:46:10 -0000 Thanks for your long answer. Doug Royer wrote: > Yes. We need more vendors to post their issues. They do not > want to do that. (see below) That doesn't make it easier. The goal of calsify is to fix issues with ical, but it can't know the issues. How can it fix them? Maybe it can start by looking at issues in applications that do want to publish their list of bug. open-source. (sunbird, kpim and evolution come to mind. iirc they have a public bug list) > (2) Time zones are only needed with recurrence rules. > Most implementations do not really need recurrence rules > as they do not do scheduling and do not do METHOD:PUBLISH, > they just use them. That is a solution, not a problem. The fact that it can be differently doesn't mean there is a problem to fix. > Do I have to compare your TZID=PST to my TZID=PST to > see if they are the same? (hint - yes) Yeah, this one is fun. Maybe it could be solved by namespacing tzid's. The ones without a namespace would be from the global registry. Maybe also version them. (otoh, that still has issues with old events.) Michiel X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1S4moaa031525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:48:51 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-68-162-179-106.pitt.east.verizon.net [68.162.179.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1S4bJ6g023899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:37:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:48:17 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com>, pregen@egenconsulting.com, Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Message-ID: <95EF22638014502C02E074BE@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6753@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6753@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:48:53 -0000 Hi Cameron, --On February 27, 2005 7:04:13 PM -0800 Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote: > While I appreciate the semantic difference between these two application > verbs - most users are not quite that savvy. The result? Most of the ics > files published to apple.com (and icalshare.com) are NOT of the > Export... flavor - and that means most people are not including what is > needed for interop. You must admit it is at least user unintuitive, and > at worst a little sloppy. > Sure - if they 'publish' invalid iCalendar data then that is a real interop problem. Hopefully someone has complained to them about it and they will fix it... -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1S34LaZ023627 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:04:22 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:04:12 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:04:28 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:04:12 -0800 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7503.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:04:13 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6753@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Thread-Index: AcUc2hDrCkcqiuhQSp2tbbKkctJo2gAZ7XWQ From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Cyrus Daboo" <daboo@isamet.com>, <pregen@egenconsulting.com>, <Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2005 03:04:12.0998 (UTC) FILETIME=[2E31A660:01C51D42] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1S34LaZ023627 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:04:24 -0000 While I appreciate the semantic difference between these two application verbs - most users are not quite that savvy. The result? Most of the ics files published to apple.com (and icalshare.com) are NOT of the Export... flavor - and that means most people are not including what is needed for interop. You must admit it is at least user unintuitive, and at worst a little sloppy. cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Cyrus Daboo Sent: Sunday.27.February.2005 06.37 To: Cameron Stillion; pregen@egenconsulting.com; Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Cc: Calsify; www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Hi Cameron, --On February 26, 2005 11:18:05 PM -0800 Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote: > The behavior I have seen in the latest Apple iCal (the product) with > regard to timezones is that they are NOT defined in VTIMEZONE blocks, > but are named in VEVENTS. The names seem to match the OSX naming > comventions for Time Zones, and notably do not match the Windows names. > Since they aren't formally defined, it's difficult to map them. We > are forced to have an internal list of Apple names for the sole > purpose of interoping. (grumble grumble) > Right - I just did a test and indeed if you create a new calendar and add a single event with a timezone, it does not include the VTIMEZONE in the ics file it creates in its own calendar store. However, if you 'Export' the calendar from the iCal.app, then it does include a VTIMEZONE. The VTIMEZONE appears to be correct, but contains only the minimum amount of information to cover the time for the event. Arguably this is not a bug as it is free to do whatever it wants in its own calendar store. WRT naming of timezones on different OS's - hopefully with a standardised timezone registry we can solve that issue and also remove the need to always send the VTIMEZONE data by value (as opposed to by reference to the registry entry). -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1RJjZaa016811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:45:37 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j1RJjU9e020723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:45:32 -0800 Message-ID: <4222235A.2040801@Royer.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:45:30 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com> <EE965EFADC7CBA5688C21227@ninevah.local> <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502271442490.12774@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> <22A1DD9F608999C06D869872@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <22A1DD9F608999C06D869872@ninevah.local> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050703080903040406060204" Received-SPF: pass (royer.com: 127.0.0.1 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:45:40 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050703080903040406060204 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040509030501090302090009" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040509030501090302090009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sending static timezone information is a short term solution. The real problem is access to the latest accurate information. It does not matter if the VTIMEZONE (or RDF) data you sent to me six months ago for next months meeting was accurate at that time. It matters that we both expect a meeting to start at the same time. The TZ (they asked me to stop calling it Olson database) database is the most accurate and kept up database that I can find. However iCalendar applications already know how to parse VTIMEZONE data, so my IETF proposal is to sync that TZ database at IANA and make the latest information available in iCalendar format. It includes revision information so you can tell if you have the latest TZ data or not. I see no reason that IANA could not also create RDF data at the same time and keep everyone in sync. The biggest issue might be if everyone goes totally dynamic, the download load on IANA (or whoever) could go sky high. So there needs to be some kind of consideration or plan for sharing the load to regional or vendor servers. (Or not?) And a simple 'what is the latest rev date on the XXX timezone' binary protocol needs to be developed. And only then download the 'latest' VTIMEZONE or RDF data when you are out of sync. Only then can we stop sending static VTIMEZONE information for each and every calendar data object transferred. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------040509030501090302090009 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt (fwd) References: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> <422204DF.7050900@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <422204DF.7050900@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090109040100030200030203" Received-SPF: pass (royer.com: 127.0.0.1 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:11:14 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090109040100030200030203 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000806080103090800040808" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000806080103090800040808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >> This draft has a brief summary of interop issues (something I would >> like to see expanded) and also lists a number of possible courses of >> action in terms of fixing iCal - that list is by no means complete. > Yes. We need more vendors to post their issues. They do not want to do that. (see below) > In the two references to interop tests in that document ([6] and [7]) > there are only two vendors that participated. That sounds a bit low to > draw conclusions from. > Also, I noticed both vendors supported timezones. > So the question arises: why all the discussion on timezones? What is the > proof that those are problematic? Issues. (1) Those of us that have written code to do calendaring know that not all vendors did it correctly. (2) Time zones are only needed with recurrence rules. Most implementations do not really need recurrence rules as they do not do scheduling and do not do METHOD:PUBLISH, they just use them. (3) Some include TZID without VTIMEZONE. Some always include a bunch of VTIMEZONEs and do not use all of them (is that a bug?). (4) Do I have to store all VTIMEZONEs from each and every appointment you send me? Do I have to compare your TZID=PST to my TZID=PST to see if they are the same? (hint - yes) Is the TZID=PST you sent me in your first VEVENT the same as the TZID=PST one you sent me for the newest? Can I always assume that for each unique PRODID value that TZID=PST will be the same over time? I can always store 100 TZID=PST VTIMEZONE objects from the 100 VEVENTs that are included in a calendar of events that I care about for the next years worth of events. Now to schedule, I have to use the TZID=PST that came with each of those 100 VEVENTS I got and not my TZID=PST to figure out when your instances are. Unless each of those VEVENTs contained EXACTLY the same TZID=PST as my TZID=PST, I could write a compare function that checks to see if the several TZID=PST VTIMEZONEs that I have collected are the same. When they are not, I still have to write the fallback code to expand using the other 'PST'. These cases are rare, however those are the bugs that people will notice. And I have to use my TZID=PST and not yours to figure out my instances. Then I have to compare the instance times expanded by the other TZID=PSTs to the instance times from my TZID=PST to see if there is a conflict. Then when I METHOD:COUNTER, I need to send it out with your TZID=PST, because currently some implementations think that PST always equals PST and they always do their instances comparisons as if that were true. Currently there is no revision control on TZIDs, so when you tell me that you want to meet monthly for the next year, did you mean in the old TZID or the new one that did not exist when you sent the VEVENT a month ago? You send a VTIMEZONE with TZOFFSET value switch dates. But you want to meet when the wall clock says it is noon. Is my PST old? Or is yours? is both of ours old? Or should I have done all of the comparisons above with the latest PST, the PST you sent, or the one hard coded into my application? Which one should I COUNTER with? Do you look at the VTIMEZONE data, or just use your hard coded one? Which is one reason I proposed the TZ registry. So that TZID=/Region/City is known to be the same for registered TZID's. And I think that we know what the user wants, they want to meet at noon PST next month at the correct wall clock time. And they do not like any application that got the TZOFFSET wrong. And they do not care if the TZOFFSET would have been accurate six months ago when you sent the VEVENT had they not changed it to accommodate some local and important event. In the US time zones are quite stable, yet they do change. Again, these are rare and real issues. > from 4.1: > > Recurrence and in particular exceptions to recurrences are known to > > be problematic. > > How is that known? Have you tried to share with and process objects from other vendors? I have, others have. That knowledge is not from the interops. Also the interop did say that the two vendors has some kind of issue with them and did not specify what. > What I think I am looking for is a list of applications and servers that > calsify should care about, because they have a reasonable number of > users. And a list of features in ical that they have problems with. The vendors will not do that. (1) It will show their bugs. Some will not acknowledge that they did it incorrectly. Others say "I am big - too bad". Some do not have the resources to fix it or attend an interop. (2) I have a list that I use. I would like to share it. (3) If I were to say that vendor X has these bugs and vendor Y has these other bugs, and I was inaccurate or they just did not like me talking about it, I could get sued. But mostly: (4) I and most on this list want to see vendor X and vendor Y do iCalendar. So publicly declaring their bug list may not make them happy (or is my implementation busted and I am the one with the bugs?). -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------000806080103090800040808 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------000806080103090800040808-- --------------ms090109040100030200030203 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt (fwd) X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:35:31 -0000 Cyrus Daboo wrote: > This draft has a brief summary of interop issues (something I would like > to see expanded) and also lists a number of possible courses of action > in terms of fixing iCal - that list is by no means complete. In the two references to interop tests in that document ([6] and [7]) there are only two vendors that participated. That sounds a bit low to draw conclusions from. Also, I noticed both vendors supported timezones. So the question arises: why all the discussion on timezones? What is the proof that those are problematic? from 4.1: > Recurrence and in particular exceptions to recurrences are known to > be problematic. How is that known? What I think I am looking for is a list of applications and servers that calsify should care about, because they have a reasonable number of users. And a list of features in ical that they have problems with. The url of reference [10] doesn't work for me. Michiel X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1RFEqaa015990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:14:53 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-68-162-179-106.pitt.east.verizon.net [68.162.179.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1RF3Q6g008790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:03:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:14:19 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Message-ID: <22A1DD9F608999C06D869872@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502271442490.12774@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com> <EE965EFADC7CBA5688C21227@ninevah.local> <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502271442490.12774@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com>, Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:14:54 -0000 Hi Libby, --On February 27, 2005 2:47:47 PM +0000 Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> wrote: >> WRT naming of timezones on different OS's - hopefully with a >> standardised timezone registry we can solve that issue and also remove >> the need to always send the VTIMEZONE data by value (as opposed to by >> reference to the registry entry). > > Is it worth using the iCalendar urls for timezones on the W3C site as a > registry like that?[1] W3C has a policy for url longevity[2]. At the > moment the timezones are maintained as RDF, but that's a transliteration > of iCalendar into XML/RDF and could perhaps in any case have iCalendar > versions added. The urls for timezones are part of experiments in turning > icalendar into RDF[3]. <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-royer-timezone-registry-01.txt> contains a proposal for setting up an IANA registry for iCalendar format timezone data. It would probably make sense to have just one 'primary' registry for both iCal and RDF versions. Other places could mirror those as appropriate. In fact I plan on having our CalDAV server sync to the registry at regular intervals and then clients accessing the server could sync (or do initial 'provisioning') via the server rather than having to have explicit knowledge of the registry. -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from dirg.bris.ac.uk (dirg.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.102]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1REm7aZ013896 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:48:07 -0800 Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.16.62]) by dirg.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1D5Pi5-0006Ef-5e; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:47:55 +0000 Received: from ecemm (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1D5Pi0-0000SZ-23; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:47:48 +0000 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:47:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> X-X-Sender: ecemm@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting In-Reply-To: <EE965EFADC7CBA5688C21227@ninevah.local> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502271442490.12774@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com> <EE965EFADC7CBA5688C21227@ninevah.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Spam-Level: -- X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com>, Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:48:09 -0000 On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Hi Cameron, > > --On February 26, 2005 11:18:05 PM -0800 Cameron Stillion > <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote: > >> The behavior I have seen in the latest Apple iCal (the product) with >> regard to timezones is that they are NOT defined in VTIMEZONE blocks, >> but are named in VEVENTS. The names seem to match the OSX naming >> comventions for Time Zones, and notably do not match the Windows names. >> Since they aren't formally defined, it's difficult to map them. We are >> forced to have an internal list of Apple names for the sole purpose of >> interoping. (grumble grumble) >> > > Right - I just did a test and indeed if you create a new calendar and add a > single event with a timezone, it does not include the VTIMEZONE in the ics > file it creates in its own calendar store. However, if you 'Export' the > calendar from the iCal.app, then it does include a VTIMEZONE. The VTIMEZONE > appears to be correct, but contains only the minimum amount of information to > cover the time for the event. Arguably this is not a bug as it is free to do > whatever it wants in its own calendar store. > > WRT naming of timezones on different OS's - hopefully with a standardised > timezone registry we can solve that issue and also remove the need to always > send the VTIMEZONE data by value (as opposed to by reference to the registry > entry). Is it worth using the iCalendar urls for timezones on the W3C site as a registry like that?[1] W3C has a policy for url longevity[2]. At the moment the timezones are maintained as RDF, but that's a transliteration of iCalendar into XML/RDF and could perhaps in any case have iCalendar versions added. The urls for timezones are part of experiments in turning icalendar into RDF[3]. Libby [1] http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/tzd/ [2] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Persistence [3] http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ > > -- > Cyrus Daboo > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify > X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1REb9aa012975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:37:10 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-68-162-179-106.pitt.east.verizon.net [68.162.179.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1REPh6g008178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:25:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:36:37 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com>, pregen@egenconsulting.com, Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Message-ID: <EE965EFADC7CBA5688C21227@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange. corp.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:37:13 -0000 Hi Cameron, --On February 26, 2005 11:18:05 PM -0800 Cameron Stillion <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote: > The behavior I have seen in the latest Apple iCal (the product) with > regard to timezones is that they are NOT defined in VTIMEZONE blocks, > but are named in VEVENTS. The names seem to match the OSX naming > comventions for Time Zones, and notably do not match the Windows names. > Since they aren't formally defined, it's difficult to map them. We are > forced to have an internal list of Apple names for the sole purpose of > interoping. (grumble grumble) > Right - I just did a test and indeed if you create a new calendar and add a single event with a timezone, it does not include the VTIMEZONE in the ics file it creates in its own calendar store. However, if you 'Export' the calendar from the iCal.app, then it does include a VTIMEZONE. The VTIMEZONE appears to be correct, but contains only the minimum amount of information to cover the time for the event. Arguably this is not a bug as it is free to do whatever it wants in its own calendar store. WRT naming of timezones on different OS's - hopefully with a standardised timezone registry we can solve that issue and also remove the need to always send the VTIMEZONE data by value (as opposed to by reference to the registry entry). -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1R7IEaZ031242; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:18:14 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:18:03 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:18:08 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:18:04 -0800 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7503.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:18:05 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C6711@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Thread-Index: AcUcVnbcx+fMCeumTy24or6Im66cowARaVUg From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: <pregen@egenconsulting.com>, <Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2005 07:18:04.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A2DE070:01C51C9C] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1R7IEaZ031242 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:18:15 -0000 The behavior I have seen in the latest Apple iCal (the product) with regard to timezones is that they are NOT defined in VTIMEZONE blocks, but are named in VEVENTS. The names seem to match the OSX naming comventions for Time Zones, and notably do not match the Windows names. Since they aren't formally defined, it's difficult to map them. We are forced to have an internal list of Apple names for the sole purpose of interoping. (grumble grumble) Cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent: Saturday.26.February.2005 14.56 To: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Cc: Calsify; www-rdf-calendar@w3.org; ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Even more intriguing. This may actually be good news. Cool... ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/25/2005 06:02 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I would like to apologize. What I had received from apple is limited and did not have any features introduced by iCalendar. Timezone the way iCalendar uses them was introduced by iCalendar. VCalendar just had an offset which was found to be insufficient. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/25/2005 05:36 PM To Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1QMtYaZ032230; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:55:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <OFE9CEEB1B.D065E766-ON85256FB3.007E84E3-85256FB3.007E5555@notesdev.ibm.com> To: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF7035CAFB.4918710F-ON85256FB4.007DE9FF-85256FB4.007DEEBD@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:31 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/26/2005 05:55:34 PM, Serialize complete at 02/26/2005 05:55:34 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.235 () HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:55:36 -0000 Even more intriguing. This may actually be good news. Cool... ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/25/2005 06:02 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I would like to apologize. What I had received from apple is limited and did not have any features introduced by iCalendar. Timezone the way iCalendar uses them was introduced by iCalendar. VCalendar just had an offset which was found to be insufficient. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/25/2005 05:36 PM To Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1QMskaZ032166; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:54:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C64F2@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> To: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OFA9275269.198BC48F-ON85256FB4.007DAFB7-85256FB4.007DDABB@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:54:39 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/26/2005 05:54:47 PM, Serialize complete at 02/26/2005 05:54:47 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.683 () HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:54:48 -0000 No it did not. Nor did it include Microsoft's product as well. 8-) Hint Hint. People are interoperating with the RFC's - icalendar, itip and imip. Others have been with iCal. This is why we are gathering the details and specing out where to make them intersect. If iCal is based more on iCalendar than people had presumed, we may be closer than we think. This is really cool.... ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> 02/25/2005 05:51 PM To <pregen@egenconsulting.com>, <Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com> cc "Calsify" <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, <ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org>, <www-rdf-calendar@w3.org> Subject RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Wow, now I'm intrigued. You mean to say that the interop we just had didn't include Apple's product? I think most of the development and testing I've done in the last year has been interoping with that single product. Am I the only one? By the way, I hate their implementation of timezones. cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:37 PM To: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Cc: Calsify; ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org; www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: keith.macdonald@oracle.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from agminet04.oracle.com (agminet04.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1Q2EQaa024826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:14:27 -0800 Received: from agminet04.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1Q2EIUw015785 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:14:18 -0800 Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1Q2EHcm015773 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:14:17 -0800 Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1Q2EGGL028658 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:14:16 -0700 Received: from [192.168.0.3] (dhcp-amer-rmdc-csvpn-gw4-141-144-96-48.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.96.48]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1Q2EFXk028629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:14:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <OFE9CEEB1B.D065E766-ON85256FB3.007E84E3-85256FB3.007E5555@notesdev.ibm.com> References: <OFE9CEEB1B.D065E766-ON85256FB3.007E84E3-85256FB3.007E5555@notesdev.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1C1D90C4-879C-11D9-B10F-000A95DA48E6@oracle.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Keith MacDonald <keith.macdonald@oracle.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:14:14 -0500 To: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:14:28 -0000 Hi, We've done some interop testing with Apple's iCal product. It's not nearly as weird as this thread makes it out to be. It is iCalendar (RFC2445) not vCalendar, and I wouldn't call it an "Apple Standard" because it implies that it's very different from RFC2445. The first versions of the iCal product certainly had some bugs esp. wrt timezones (the timezones were used but not defined) but at least for file based import/export my current interop with it is at least as good as with other major C&S products. I do wish they would have saved us all a lot of grief by choosing a different product name though... Cheers, Keith On 25-Feb-05, at 6:02 PM, Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com wrote: > I would like to apologize. What I had received from apple is limited > and > did not have any features introduced by iCalendar. Timezone the way > iCalendar uses them was introduced by iCalendar. VCalendar just had an > offset which was found to be insufficient. > > > > pregen@egenconsulting.com > Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org > 02/25/2005 05:36 PM > > To > Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com > cc > Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, > ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org > Subject > Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting > > > > > > > Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on > iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on > vCalendar > as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we > could > see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. > > > > Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com > 02/24/2005 07:35 PM > > To > pregen@egenconsulting.com > cc > Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, > ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, > www-rdf-calendar@w3.org > Subject > Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting > > > > > > > > Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 > September > 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. > > > > pregen@egenconsulting.com > Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org > 02/24/2005 07:21 PM > > > To > Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> > cc > Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, > ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org > Subject > Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting > > > > > > > > > I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple > standard. > The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not > iCalendar. > ___________________ > Patricia Egen Consulting > www.egenconsulting.com > 423-875-2652 > > > > Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> > Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org > 02/24/2005 04:51 PM > > To > Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org > cc > > Subject > [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting > > > > > > > This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to > Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, > and > I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost > calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software > engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's > interest > in calendar can only help propel things along. > > Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two > separate > posts about this on the same day. > > > > > Tim Hare > Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1PN2EaZ003252; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:02:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <OF7EAF16A1.FA9114CE-ON85256FB3.007C1BCF-85256FB3.007C31A7@egenconsulting.com> To: pregen@egenconsulting.com Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_02132005NP February 13, 2005 Message-ID: <OFE9CEEB1B.D065E766-ON85256FB3.007E84E3-85256FB3.007E5555@notesdev.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:02:06 -0500 X-Disclaimed: 1 From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Build V70_M4_12222004 Beta 3|December 22, 2004) at 02/25/2005 05:58:29 PM, Serialize complete at 02/25/2005 05:58:29 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 1.057 (*) DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:02:16 -0000 I would like to apologize. What I had received from apple is limited and did not have any features introduced by iCalendar. Timezone the way iCalendar uses them was introduced by iCalendar. VCalendar just had an offset which was found to be insufficient. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/25/2005 05:36 PM To Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1PMpUaZ001989; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:30 -0800 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:25 -0800 Received: from red-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.25]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1802); Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:24 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.23]) by red-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1802); Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:23 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:20 -0800 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7503.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:51:20 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537027C64F2@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Thread-Index: AcUbiqJsZMqI4YjvTzCUydLsRfwAuQAAahIQ From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: <pregen@egenconsulting.com>, <Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2005 22:51:20.0814 (UTC) FILETIME=[860A98E0:01C51B8C] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1PMpUaZ001989 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:51:30 -0000 Wow, now I'm intrigued. You mean to say that the interop we just had didn't include Apple's product? I think most of the development and testing I've done in the last year has been interoping with that single product. Am I the only one? By the way, I hate their implementation of timezones. cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:37 PM To: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Cc: Calsify; ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org; www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1PMaaaZ000840; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:36:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <OF87DBB1A8.501DA841-ON85256FB3.00033173-85256FB3.00030796@notesdev.ibm.com> To: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF7EAF16A1.FA9114CE-ON85256FB3.007C1BCF-85256FB3.007C31A7@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:36:31 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/25/2005 05:36:37 PM, Serialize complete at 02/25/2005 05:36:37 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.265 () HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:36:40 -0000 Robert, I've been getting some private emails that say it's based on iCalendar. So, now I'm intrigued. iCalendar is also based on vCalendar as well. I'd really love to see them participate on interops so we could see, first hand, what actually does or does not work. Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com 02/24/2005 07:35 PM To pregen@egenconsulting.com cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1PFDMaa026648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:13:23 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ninevah.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1PF2j6g001909 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:02:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:13:21 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Message-ID: <47E57BFAF51357E3543A212E@ninevah.local> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt (fwd) X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:13:23 -0000 FYI In case anyone missed this announcement. This draft has a brief summary of interop issues (something I would like to see expanded) and also lists a number of possible courses of action in terms of fixing iCal - that list is by no means complete. Right now the Calsify BOF is scheduled for THURSDAY, March 10, 2005 1 pm - 3 pm in Minneapolis. ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- Date: February 16, 2005 10:16:07 AM -0500 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Problems in Calendaring and Scheduling Standards Author(s) : C. Daboo Filename : draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2005-2-15 Current calendaring and scheduling standards are fraught with a number of significant problems, that have hindered wide deployments of interoperable products. This informational document lists the problems with the current standards documents as a means to help identity areas where revisions of the documents are required. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1PF7YaZ026214; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:07:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <OF50021831.26BB19B2-ON85256FB3.0001DE8F-85256FB3.0001F262@egenconsulting.com> To: pregen@egenconsulting.com Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_02132005NP February 13, 2005 Message-ID: <OF87DBB1A8.501DA841-ON85256FB3.00033173-85256FB3.00030796@notesdev.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:35:16 -0500 X-Disclaimed: 1 From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Build V70_M4_12222004 Beta 3|December 22, 2004) at 02/25/2005 10:03:52 AM, Serialize complete at 02/25/2005 10:03:52 AM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.609 () DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:07:38 -0000 Actually original was not iCalendar at all. It vCalendar 1.0 September 18, 1996 which seems to be what apple uses. pregen@egenconsulting.com Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 07:21 PM To Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> cc Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1P0LLaZ006557; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:21:22 -0800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050224164717.02d38390@mail.comcast.net> To: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF50021831.26BB19B2-ON85256FB3.0001DE8F-85256FB3.0001F262@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:21:16 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/24/2005 07:21:22 PM, Serialize complete at 02/24/2005 07:21:22 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.265 () HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:21:25 -0000 I think the item on the Blog is about iCal - which is the Apple standard. The apple standard is based on the original work but it's not iCalendar. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/24/2005 04:51 PM To Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: TimHare@comcast.net X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1OLrNaZ028550 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:53:23 -0800 Received: from computer.comcast.net (pcp02547528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.84.21.89]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <200502242153170140037306e>; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:53:18 +0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050224164717.02d38390@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:51:35 -0500 To: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, www-rdf-calendar@w3.org From: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <72e25744aa080787746541874aa98edb@washington.edu> References: <72e25744aa080787746541874aa98edb@washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 1.75 (*) DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but interesting X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:53:25 -0000 This is interesting... some months ago (3-4?) I sent in a suggestion to Google that they develop a specialized search for calendar information, and I specifically suggested that they had such clout that they could boost calendar standardization and iCalendar. Maybe one of their software engineers got interested on his/her own. In any event, Google's interest in calendar can only help propel things along. Cross posted to ietf-calsify and rdf-calendar because I got two separate posts about this on the same day. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. X-Envelope-From: oren@washington.edu X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu (mxout5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.135]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1OHKraa028112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:20:54 -0800 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.9]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.13.3+UW05.01/8.13.3+UW05.01) with ESMTP id j1OHKrAN004132 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:20:53 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.105] (c-24-18-181-17.client.comcast.net [24.18.181.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.3+UW05.01/8.13.3+UW05.01) with ESMTP id j1OHKosS002211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:20:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) To: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Message-Id: <72e25744aa080787746541874aa98edb@washington.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--38053234 From: Oren Sreebny <oren@washington.edu> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:20:49 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Fwd: Wild Google Speculation, but interesting X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:20:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail-5--38053234 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed this is possibly of interest. Begin forwarded message: > From: Jim Flanagan <jimfl@u.washington.edu> > Date: February 24, 2005 8:18:58 AM PST > To: Oren Sreebny <oren@cac.washington.edu> > Subject: Wild Google Speculation, but interesting > > http://www.b2blog.com/2005/02/i-know-what-googles-going-to-do-next.htm > > Apparently, Google is crawling ical content, perhaps for some sort of > event search. --Apple-Mail-5--38053234 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII this is possibly of interest. Begin forwarded message: <excerpt><bold><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>From: </color></bold>Jim Flanagan <<jimfl@u.washington.edu> <bold><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>Date: </color></bold>February 24, 2005 8:18:58 AM PST <bold><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>To: </color></bold>Oren Sreebny <<oren@cac.washington.edu> <bold><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>Subject: </color>Wild Google Speculation, but interesting </bold> http://www.b2blog.com/2005/02/i-know-what-googles-going-to-do-next.htm Apparently, Google is crawling ical content, perhaps for some sort of event search. </excerpt> --Apple-Mail-5--38053234-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1L5uxaa029236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:57:03 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1L5utQS003748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:56:58 -0800 Message-ID: <42197827.1030809@Royer.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:56:55 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] max-interop vs. min-useful and DTEND (Was Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification?) References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <4c59242207e2d791412acf96af108748@technorati.com> <46C6493E-82EC-11D9-80CF-000A9581A8F6@technorati.com> In-Reply-To: <46C6493E-82EC-11D9-80CF-000A9581A8F6@technorati.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020000080303020806050106" X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:57:06 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020000080303020806050106 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030707000202080601060103" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030707000202080601060103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tantek =C7elik wrote: > A max-interop evaluation of DTEND would ask the question of how=20 > inteoperable are implementations of DTEND. I don't know the actual=20 > answer offhand, but I can only surmise that a property so simple would = > be quite interoperable (please correct me if tests have shown=20 > otherwise). Therefore DTEND should be included. Some applications send DURATION others send DTEND. Even when the endpoints can compute one from the other, there is no real point to having both. The reason I proposed DTEND go away over time is because of the two methods used for expanding recurring instances. Some set RECURRENCE-ID always equal to DTSTART (and they adjust DTEND) Others do what iTIP says and DTSTART and DTEND is the original value and RECURRENCE-ID is the effective start time of the instance. By using DURATION, the recipient does not care which method to use, they just need to add RECURRENCE-ID to DURATION to compute DTEND. (This works for both) If you do it the iTIP way DTEND can be before RECURRENCE-ID and after DTSTART. Just trying to avoid the next debate over scheduling that is going to happen some day. >=20 > P.S. One could make the additional argument that whether a VEVENT has a= =20 > DTEND > or a DURATION could be used to keep track of whether the *user*=20 > specified a duration or an absolute end datetime for an event in their = > calendar user interface, and thus DURATION can't serve as a 100%=20 > replacement for DTEND. This is merely a theory, I don't know of any=20 > actual implementations that treat DURATION/DTEND with this particular=20 > detail. So far, I do not think that anyone came up with an example of this. And it can not be true for appointments that repeat. The first instance could be valid. The second instance would have a DTEND before DTSTART if DTEND were fixed. For those that set RECURRENCE-ID equal to DTSTART, the sender MUST adjust DTEND by computing the duration between the first instances DTSTART and DTEND and then send out updated DTSTART/DTEND values. So much for a fixed DTEND. And I think that it proves that all of the time: DURATION =3D DTEND - DTSTART For those that keep DTSTART and DTEND the same and only set RECURRENCE-ID equal to the effective start time, the recipient must subtract DTEND from DTSTART and add it to RECURRENCE-ID to compute the duration and find the effective DTEND. So much for a fixed DTEND. So that point that has been brought up before does not work for an second or greater instance. --=20 Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------030707000202080601060103 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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In-Reply-To: <4c59242207e2d791412acf96af108748@technorati.com> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <4c59242207e2d791412acf96af108748@technorati.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <46C6493E-82EC-11D9-80CF-000A9581A8F6@technorati.com> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tantek_=C7elik?= <tantek@technorati.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:05:29 -0800 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1K35aaa029142 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] max-interop vs. min-useful and DTEND (Was Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification?) X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:05:37 -0000 I want to re-raise the issue of what is the scope of iCal-Basic because I feel that has been lost with the deep-dive into the RRULES discussion. See 1. max-interop vs. 2. min-useful in previous email below. Another example of max-interop vs. min-useful is perhaps DTEND. A max-interop evaluation of DTEND would ask the question of how inteoperable are implementations of DTEND. I don't know the actual answer offhand, but I can only surmise that a property so simple would be quite interoperable (please correct me if tests have shown otherwise). Therefore DTEND should be included. OTOH, what is in *-02.txt is perhaps the min-useful perspective, which asks whether DTEND is necessary, and finds that it is not, since DURATION can simply be used instead. Therefore DTEND was removed (or in this case deprecated). However, for the same reasons as before: " if current implementations interoperably output feature XYZ, then any new implementation will be forced by market forces and competitive pressure to accept and support feature XYZ" I still prefer 1. max-interop and thus prefer to keep DTEND (without deprecation). Regards, Tantek P.S. One could make the additional argument that whether a VEVENT has a DTEND or a DURATION could be used to keep track of whether the *user* specified a duration or an absolute end datetime for an event in their calendar user interface, and thus DURATION can't serve as a 100% replacement for DTEND. This is merely a theory, I don't know of any actual implementations that treat DURATION/DTEND with this particular detail. On Feb 10, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: > +1 on what Cameron Stillion wrote. > > If the choice is between defining iCal as: > > 1. maximum interoperability profile of existing major/popular > implementations > 2. minimum possible useful profile (radical simplification) > > From following all the discussions in this thread, and considering > practical matters of current implementations and market forces (e.g. > if current implementations interoperably output RRULES, then any new > implementation will be forced by market forces and competitive > pressure to accept and support RRULES), 1. seems like the only > realistic choice. > > Tantek > > > > On Feb 10, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Cameron Stillion wrote: > >> >> While I agree with you philosophically, I believe there is also a >> practical issue to consider: Any standard which has meaning must have >> some relevance to the working products that are in frequent or popular >> usage. If we were in a state where no product or vendor had yet >> released significant support of iCal, I would agree with you >> completely. >> However, there are products now shipping and becoming more commonplace >> that we must also consider. Apple's iCal (who came up with that >> original name?) product and their .mac service that hosts published >> calendars. Mozilla's product that reads and writes iCal format, and >> several others - some already out there, and some on the verge of >> releasing... There are other web services (I use the term loosely, not >> in the MS.NET sense) that have sprung up around iCal: icalx.com, >> icalshare.com, and others... A standard which these products and >> services do not use is (imho) not all that meaningful. >> >> To hit on some of your specific points: removing rrules would not >> affect >> the apps and services that use them currently. Frankly, I can't >> imagine >> removing support for rrules in our current product, or generating >> icals >> without them. It would mean more "lossy" conversions, not less. I >> can't imagine other vendors doing it either. Perhaps new systems >> could >> opt for the "simpler" rrule-less standard, but then they would be >> incompatible with the existing big dogs that use this technology. In >> some ways, we are dealing with the tyrrany of schema - you can't take >> it >> back, once it is commonly used. You can deprecate it, provide a >> better >> replacement, but it is VERY difficult to stop supporting it. >> >> I believe that to be successful, we must capture the state of the art >> that is happening today, perhaps with some tweaks to the more >> difficult >> aspects that thwart integration and interoperability. Radical >> simplification to the standard make it theoretically easier for >> entrance >> to the game, but I think the sweet spot here is to capture what's >> already being played, and then to move on from there. A Diet-iCal may >> very well be useful to embedded systems or small devices (maybe) in >> the >> future, but I don't see it as our most pressing objective, or our most >> promising one. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> cameron X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1EKGBaa010562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:13 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1EKG2t0015088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:07 -0800 Message-ID: <42110701.80509@Royer.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:16:01 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] radical simplification, too References: <s211e716.075@xgate.provo.novell.com> In-Reply-To: <s211e716.075@xgate.provo.novell.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070402010001020006090209" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:16:17 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070402010001020006090209 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000703050301090807020600" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000703050301090807020600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another idea is that we make a new parameter (say R-FYI) that *if* set to true in an RRULE property means that the RDATE's should be used and that RRULE is just FYI. So you could say in effect, and the ORGANIZER wants to convey the fact that the meeting is weekly, but look at the RDATE's for the real instance times. Now we can keep the organizers intent when implementations care, and for those that do not care, here are the real instance times in RDATEs. Preston Stephenson wrote: > Just a few comments. > It would be nice to have a list of iCal properties that were defined explicitly. > Be it an iCal lite or an iCal best practices. > If we could come to a consensus of what they were, > I would be more willing to make the project I work on fit into that consensus. > > If we get into the more difficult ones such as rrule, > I'm constrained by the architecture of our application. > I'm limited to fanning out the recurrence rule to a reasonable number of occurrences in the future. > > It would nice to support infinite occurring rules, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. > > All I'm saying is if rrule was part of the iCal basic, I could only support it with certain restrictions. > It would be nice to have a set of iCal properties that could be supported in all cases. > > Thanks. > Preston > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------000703050301090807020600 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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o/823aJ9UbGtAvmV12WmOwf5yW4G3WLUmtdwkUplSQ9Xby4rLXlYRs8MvtEh7PQs+oRgWUr4 pk4ITHmz1r2UoGKlShhjtl3R6PCD0/t67YFsHzhVPyWCU8oeSuPjYi9805UlhPtJJFnQ9A5c 0lknSn1FY1liKSYxdBa9sg5rQ1x5WyHx4mDA5nOIRnu04cCM04xylEvBuiCSawAAAAAAAA== --------------ms070402010001020006090209-- X-Envelope-From: PStephenson@gw.novell.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from xgate.provo.novell.com (xgate.provo.novell.com [137.65.47.28]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1EJAnaa025973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:10:49 -0800 Received: from PROVO7-MTA by xgate.provo.novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:12:06 -0700 Message-Id: <s211e716.075@xgate.provo.novell.com> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:15:23 -0700 From: "Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com> To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.374 () DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1EJAnaa025973 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] radical simplification, too X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:10:50 -0000 Just a few comments. It would be nice to have a list of iCal properties that were defined explicitly. Be it an iCal lite or an iCal best practices. If we could come to a consensus of what they were, I would be more willing to make the project I work on fit into that consensus. If we get into the more difficult ones such as rrule, I'm constrained by the architecture of our application. I'm limited to fanning out the recurrence rule to a reasonable number of occurrences in the future. It would nice to support infinite occurring rules, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. All I'm saying is if rrule was part of the iCal basic, I could only support it with certain restrictions. It would be nice to have a set of iCal properties that could be supported in all cases. Thanks. Preston X-Envelope-From: lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from cnr.cs.columbia.edu (cnr.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.133]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1EHGRaa023259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:16:28 -0800 Received: from cnr.cs.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnr.cs.columbia.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EHGRr5025415 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu) Received: (from lennox@localhost) by cnr.cs.columbia.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j1EHGRiJ025412; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lennox) From: Jonathan Lennox <lennox@cs.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16912.56555.201407.147193@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:27 -0500 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version In-Reply-To: <4210D4F3.9070405@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <0IBW001A4SLXT8@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu> <4210D4F3.9070405@cse.ucsc.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:16:30 -0000 On Monday, February 14 2005, "Elias Sinderson" wrote to "ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org" saying: > Curt Ellmann wrote: > > >I agree that one year is too short-- what is the problem with infinitely > >recurring events? There are plenty of examples of events that are > >infinitely recurring-- holidays, anniversaries, and other celebrations. > > > I only suggested one year as a matter of conjecture - the limit could be > five years, or ten, for that matter, as long as there is a limit which > allows a /finite/ expansion of recurring events. One only semi-tongue-in-cheek suggestion would be "no events past POSIX time_t 0x7fffffff" (Tue Jan 19 03:14:07 2038 UTC), as such events would I imagine cause interoperability problems anyway. > Note that this was in > response to Doug Royers observation that "the only noticable issue is > infinate recurring entries." I will also note that the cannonical > examples provided for infinitely recurring events have been all-day > events, which do not suffer from the timezone issues that have been > identified. Note that the Call Processing Language (RFC 3880) normatively cites iCalendar's RRULE specification, and the usage there has need for rules like "working hours", e.g. "9 am - 5 pm Monday - Friday". Any CPL revision would want to cite a future full RRULE spec, though, not iCal-basic. -- Jonathan Lennox lennox at cs dot columbia dot edu X-Envelope-From: elias@cse.ucsc.edu X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.24]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1EGiEaa019264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:44:14 -0800 Received: (qmail 7005 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2005 16:44:14 -0000 Received: from dsl081-070-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO cse.ucsc.edu) (elias@[64.81.70.219]) (envelope-sender <elias@cse.ucsc.edu>) by mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; 14 Feb 2005 16:44:14 -0000 Message-ID: <4210D4F3.9070405@cse.ucsc.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:42:27 -0800 From: Elias Sinderson <elias@cse.ucsc.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <0IBW001A4SLXT8@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu> In-Reply-To: <0IBW001A4SLXT8@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:44:15 -0000 Curt Ellmann wrote: >I agree that one year is too short-- what is the problem with infinitely >recurring events? There are plenty of examples of events that are >infinitely recurring-- holidays, anniversaries, and other celebrations. > > I only suggested one year as a matter of conjecture - the limit could be five years, or ten, for that matter, as long as there is a limit which allows a /finite/ expansion of recurring events. Note that this was in response to Doug Royers observation that "the only noticable issue is infinate recurring entries." I will also note that the cannonical examples provided for infinitely recurring events have been all-day events, which do not suffer from the timezone issues that have been identified. As per Dougs' suggestion, the inclusion of a property which indicates that a METHOD:REFRESH should be done in the future seems like a good idea; simply a way to say 'and so on' or 'sync again later'. I cannot think of a situation where a client would need to get the infinity of recurrences in a single sync and not be able to sync again in the future. Further, regarding the question of the duration placed as an upper bound, allowing any given implementation to set its' own upper bound on recurrences rather than having it rigidly declared in the specification would make it possible for devices with limited profiles to play along as well. It may be useful to step back from this issue for a minute and try to identify use cases that require scheduling of recurring events (or any event), e.g., five years out. Neither Hotels nor airlines will allow one to place reservations that far in advance. The most difficult restaraunt to dine at in California (French Laundry) only takes reservations several months (4?) out. Business meetings are never arranged in this matter, and it only seems a matter of convenience to say that this meeting will recur infinitely rather than specify an end date several years away. As I mentioned before, even so called 'infinitely recurring' weekly project meetings are (semi)regularly rescheduled to accomodate attendees constraints and other recurring meetings that are scheduled. If anyone can provide a use case which requires an infinitely recurring event which is not an all day affair (such as holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.), please provide it. Extra credit will be given if it isn't some freaky and contrived edge case, but occurs frequently enough that it would be an honest inconvenience to a user to schedule seperate events. Deprecating infinitely recurring events and placing a sensible upper bound as suggested would allow recurring events to be represented as either a RRULE or as a finite sequence of events, and would sidestep the issues related to timezones that have been raised previously on the list. It would seem that the benefits of this simplification greatly outweigh the downside of rescheduling a meeting every couple years (if it lasts that long) or similar. Further, if RRULEs become an optional part of the specification, as has been suggested before, this approach would allow interoperability where one system implements RRULEs and the other doesn't, as there won't be a problem in an infinite expansion of events. Cheers, Elias >-----Original Message----- >From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org >[mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Michiel van >Leeuwen >Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:58 PM >To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org >Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping >the version > >Elias Sinderson wrote: > > >>Would it be reasonable to deprecate infinitely recurring events and >>place an upperbound of, say, one year on recurring entries? >> >> > >I think it isn't such a great idea, becasue one year is a magic number. >Why one year, and not two years? > > X-Envelope-From: ellmann@wisc.edu X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu (fafner.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.197.155]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1EG3eaa016741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:03:40 -0800 Received: from avs-daemon.smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu by smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) id <0IBW00J3SSLYMJ@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu> for ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:03:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from Sedna (sedna.doit.wisc.edu [128.104.16.139]) by smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IBW001A3SLXT8@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:03:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:03:26 -0600 From: Curt Ellmann <ellmann@wisc.edu> Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version In-reply-to: <420E6DE7.9020907@exedo.nl> To: "'Michiel van Leeuwen'" <mvl@exedo.nl>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Message-id: <0IBW001A4SLXT8@smtp6.wiscmail.wisc.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcURRewDy3HKVfNoTdW/XEq5ttItuQBaGR7A X-Spam-Report: AuthenticatedSender=yes, SenderIP=128.104.16.139 X-Spam-PmxInfo: Server=avs-7, Version=4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.3.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.2.14.7, SenderIP=128.104.16.139 X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:03:41 -0000 I agree that one year is too short-- what is the problem with infinitely recurring events? There are plenty of examples of events that are infinitely recurring-- holidays, anniversaries, and other celebrations. -curt. -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Michiel van Leeuwen Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:58 PM To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version Elias Sinderson wrote: > Would it be reasonable to deprecate infinitely recurring events and > place an upperbound of, say, one year on recurring entries? I think it isn't such a great idea, becasue one year is a magic number. Why one year, and not two years? Michiel _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1DN2GaZ016622 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:02:16 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1DN2F2H049056 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:02:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420FDC76.6010409@exedo.nl> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:02:14 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> <420E79E1.4050201@Royer.com> <420FCBC2.5060001@exedo.nl> <420FD5BC.3000504@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420FD5BC.3000504@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:02:17 -0000 Doug Royer wrote: > No. No move at all. For recurrence rules things are the same. I expressed myself poorly. I remember someone making the suggestion to move. I think it wasn't accepted. The fact that it isn't backward compatible would be a very good reason to not accept it. >> What I think we need is a list of what you can safely generate. This >> would be some recommendation. "if you want to do publishing, you can >> use this subset. if you do scheduling, you can do this (possibly >> other) subset. if you do generate something that isn't on the list, >> you are not violation the spec, but might have problems with interop". > > I think that is what I have been proposing. The proposal was a new spec, which is the old spec with some thing removed. What i am suggesting is to keep the old spec, but create a best-practices document. That would include what not to use, and how to do certain things (for every use-case of iCalendar). (expand a recurring event into rdates, don't use exrule etc) If some client decides to generate exrule anyway, it isn't violating the spec. It is just not a good showing nice behaviour. Michiel X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1DMXbaa013906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:33:39 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1DMXXt0031136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:33:35 -0800 Message-ID: <420FD5BC.3000504@Royer.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:33:32 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> <420E79E1.4050201@Royer.com> <420FCBC2.5060001@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420FCBC2.5060001@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090801020100020206070408" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090801020100020206070408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Doug Royer wrote: > >> Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: >> >>> Yes, it can. (except for the suggestion i've read to move timezone >>> information to the rrule) >> >> What move? > > I though i have seen a suggestion to put the timezone information on the > rrule instead of the starttime. But that is not my main point. No. No move at all. For recurrence rules things are the same. I am just suggestion that for bound recurrences, it might not be necessary to convey anything except RDATEs. So everything can be in UTC. So I think we need to make a rule: For bound recurrences - use UTC and RDATEs and never use RRULE or EXRULE. The above works for published, scheduled, and data-exchange of bound recurrences. I think that covers a huge percentage of calendar entries. And I am suggesting that unbound recurrences might not ever need to be used. Just pick some upper bound and let people look. So everything can be in UTC. I do not think that we need to define the upper limit, that will be application dependent. People do not really want time zones, they just want it to work. And they want to tell their GUI that it is at 2pm in FOO time zone. They do not care if the GUI converts it to UTC before distributing a bound recurrence. Unbound recurrences - that is 'I think', the only real issue left. And if we really need them, lets reduce RRULE to what is used and needed. (SECONDLY, MINUTELY - are they used ?) >>> But a new client will still have to be able to read the 'old' ical >>> type events. >> >> >> True in the short term, however over time the old formats will disappear. > > > I'm afraid that short term can be pretty long. For example, look at the > web. It is full of 'old' documents, full of quirks etc. > >> Many years ago when SMTP was coming out, there was a rule that went >> something like, "Be generous in what you accept, and conservative in >> what you generate". > > > What I think we need is a list of what you can safely generate. This > would be some recommendation. "if you want to do publishing, you can use > this subset. if you do scheduling, you can do this (possibly other) > subset. if you do generate something that isn't on the list, you are not > violation the spec, but might have problems with interop". I think that is what I have been proposing. > This list would be based on the current clients. If you don't care about > other clients, you can use everything from ical. > The current list would pretty much look like ical-basic. In the future, > it might be expanded. If the majorty of used clients would someday > safely understand rrules, the list can be updated. But the real spec > won't change! Yes, I think we agree. For some reason vendors seem reluctant to describe the recurrence rules they generate. You can play with their GUI and determine if they support weekly or what ever. Is what you can not tell from their GUI is how they make up RDATE, EXDATE, RRULE, and EXRULE. For example: Some never generate EXRULE (do any?) they just generate EXDATEs. Some never generate RRULE's, they use RDATE and bound them to an upper limit. Some never really update their RRULE, they just add RDATEs and EXDATEs. So, the trick with scheduling is going to be to find that acceptable list of how to generate recurrence rules. So far the large vendors are not talking. So we have to reverse engineer (not accurate), or look at their features, propose something, and see if they scream :-) -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------090801020100020206070408 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------090801020100020206070408-- X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.24]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1DLp0aZ010963 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:51:00 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1DLoxvL003752 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420FCBC2.5060001@exedo.nl> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:58 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> <420E79E1.4050201@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420E79E1.4050201@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:51:01 -0000 Doug Royer wrote: > Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > >> Yes, it can. (except for the suggestion i've read to move timezone >> information to the rrule) > What move? I though i have seen a suggestion to put the timezone information on the rrule instead of the starttime. But that is not my main point. >> But a new client will still have to be able to read the 'old' ical >> type events. > > True in the short term, however over time the old formats will > disappear. I'm afraid that short term can be pretty long. For example, look at the web. It is full of 'old' documents, full of quirks etc. > Many years ago when SMTP was coming out, there was a rule that went > something like, "Be generous in what you accept, and conservative in > what you generate". What I think we need is a list of what you can safely generate. This would be some recommendation. "if you want to do publishing, you can use this subset. if you do scheduling, you can do this (possibly other) subset. if you do generate something that isn't on the list, you are not violation the spec, but might have problems with interop". This list would be based on the current clients. If you don't care about other clients, you can use everything from ical. The current list would pretty much look like ical-basic. In the future, it might be expanded. If the majorty of used clients would someday safely understand rrules, the list can be updated. But the real spec won't change! Michiel X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1DHGxaZ021031; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:17:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> To: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OFC929F71E.C02ED49C-ON85256FA7.005BC537-85256FA7.005EEEBB@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:16:56 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/13/2005 12:17:00 PM, Serialize complete at 02/13/2005 12:17:00 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.235 () HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:17:02 -0000 Michael, I think you have hit on a key issue here. Interestingly enough, there was never a "requirements" document established to use as a guide for the three RFCs (2445, 2446, 2447). One was created for CAP but not for these three. The reason for this, I believe, was because there was already a base of document established prior to these RFCs. The original CALSCH charter quoted the following documents for use as input to these drafts: * Distributed Scheduling Protocol (CHRONOS) IETF Working Group * ISO/IEC SC18 Distributed Office Application for Calendaring, Scheduling and Appointments * MHS Alliance Calendaring and Scheduling Interoperability Protocol (CSIP) * X.400 API Association (XAPIA) Calendaring and Scheduling API (CSA) and Calendaring and Scheduling Interoperabilty Specification (CSIS) * X/Open Consortium Calendaring and Scheduling (XCS) Implementor's Specification * Versit vCalendar format I figure if people want to go find these original documents, they can try. I have yet to find a full copy of the XAPIA document, which, I believe, is a pretty good start for a stab at requirements. I don't know if you all will find this helpful, but in the past, I have held several surveys with organizations to monitor what people wanted in a calendar application. This may help steer people towards some components that should be in a standard. It won't help with the nitty gritty and details of how to describe events, timezones, and such, but it does show the kinds of things people want to see in a calendaring app. Please be aware that this document needs to be updated to include what users want in today's webcentric environment. http://www.egenconsulting.com/calreqs.htm ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/12/2005 08:03 AM To ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version Tim Hare wrote: > if: The components and properties presented by a radically simple > implementation are a subset of iCalendar, so current implementations > _should_, if they are compliant, be able to accept these items. I got a question about the simplification. Some of the simplifications are not compatible with the current spec. (like the way timezones are supposed to be moved to an extension. Even with the extension you still must store the start time in utc) On the other side, there is talk about seeing what current clients can do, and remove the rest from the spec. But if the spec will not be compatible, why look at current client? Why not start from the start, and see what you would need to do good calendaring, instead of looking at the bugs in current clients. Michiel _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1DGfIaZ017844; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:41:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211201730.02d0a120@mail.comcast.net> To: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF7E6DB37E.2E2B2128-ON85256FA7.005B91AF-85256FA7.005BAA14@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:41:14 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/13/2005 11:41:19 AM, Serialize complete at 02/13/2005 11:41:19 AM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.235 () HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:41:21 -0000 Ditto to your thoughts Tim (from another end-user). As for the lowest subset, that's what the Min-IOP technical committee is working on in the consortium. I actually owe them a document that "sort of" shows what has worked over the last several interops. It's a start - but not complete. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/11/2005 08:26 PM To ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Wow - I do seem to have a penchant for stirring up discussion! I admit, here, that I probably went too far with the simplification idea. I still really want to see UTC as the common exchange time format, but I can see the point of retaining some RRULE idea. Some of the ideas / discussion in response bring out an important (to me) point: Calsify / iCal-Basic is about finding that least common denominator point that everyone can agree to implement so that users do not have to worry about their publishing or scheduling of events being accepted. As an individual user, I want calendaring to be just as simple as e-mail is now - there must be a set of functions that I can reasonably expect to be there in any calendaring tool I use. I don't want to stop and think about it, I just want to create the event/meeting/whatever and click 'OK' Do we have any way to determine what this common set of functions is right now? Do the Interop reports from Calconnect give us enough information (yet)? Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CLnSaa015342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:49:29 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1CLnLKe019715 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:49:24 -0800 Message-ID: <420E79E1.4050201@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:49:21 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050503070004030009040709" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:49:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050503070004030009040709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Doug Royer wrote: > >> It is my belief that any iCal-Basic object can be understood by >> all current iCalendar implementations. If not, PLEASE point out >> why not. > > > Yes, it can. (except for the suggestion i've read to move timezone > information to the rrule) What move? > But a new client will still have to be able to read the 'old' ical type > events. Because they can receive them. Users won't accept it if a new > client will not be able to accept events from older clients. > So i think that removing things from the spec won't make writing new > clients any easier. True in the short term, however over time the old formats will disappear. Just like most implementations no longer support the XCS calendar format (pre-iCalendar/vCalendar) any more. And as there is just as much chance that a new implementation will find yet another way to correctly represent what the current implementations correctly and differently represent. Many years ago when SMTP was coming out, there was a rule that went something like, "Be generous in what you accept, and conservative in what you generate". For the most part we can read each others email. 20 years ago you could read it, but it sometimes had odd stuff in it from pre-SMTP mailers (Like UUCP email addresses). I agree with what you are saying. However the current status is not quite working and yet MUCH closer than pre-iCalendar. I think (And PLEASE point out where I am wrong) that for NON-scheduling that iCal-Basic is close if not right on. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------050503070004030009040709 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------050503070004030009040709-- X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CL1eaZ004932 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:01:40 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1CL1dCW087906 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:01:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420E6EB2.5010100@exedo.nl> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:01:38 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:01:41 -0000 Doug Royer wrote: > It is my belief that any iCal-Basic object can be understood by > all current iCalendar implementations. If not, PLEASE point out > why not. Yes, it can. (except for the suggestion i've read to move timezone information to the rrule) But a new client will still have to be able to read the 'old' ical type events. Because they can receive them. Users won't accept it if a new client will not be able to accept events from older clients. So i think that removing things from the spec won't make writing new clients any easier. Michiel X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.23]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CKwHaZ004746 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:58:18 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1CKwGd3046795 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:58:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420E6DE7.9020907@exedo.nl> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:58:15 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> <420E6A66.5070506@cse.ucsc.edu> In-Reply-To: <420E6A66.5070506@cse.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:58:19 -0000 Elias Sinderson wrote: > Would it be reasonable to deprecate infinitely recurring events and > place an upperbound of, say, one year on recurring entries? I think it isn't such a great idea, becasue one year is a magic number. Why one year, and not two years? Michiel X-Envelope-From: elias@cse.ucsc.edu X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.24]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CKjOaa002301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:45:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 32553 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2005 20:45:23 -0000 Received: from dsl081-070-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO cse.ucsc.edu) (elias@[64.81.70.219]) (envelope-sender <elias@cse.ucsc.edu>) by mail22.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; 12 Feb 2005 20:45:23 -0000 Message-ID: <420E6A66.5070506@cse.ucsc.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:43:18 -0800 From: Elias Sinderson <elias@cse.ucsc.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:45:24 -0000 Doug Royer wrote: > [...] As far as I can tell the only noticable issue is infinate > recurring entries. So could we add a propertry or parameter that says, > "and > there are more so when you run out - send a METHOD:REFRESH to get the > next year (or whatever) of them" ? Given the following: (a) infinitely recurring meetings aren't really infinite and (b) people don't last forever anyway FWIW, the weekly project meetings I've been involved with for the several years get shuffled about more than once per year to adjust to other scheduling constraints, and I believe this is fairly typical. The only things which don't really get shuffled about are things like holidays... Would it be reasonable to deprecate infinitely recurring events and place an upperbound of, say, one year on recurring entries? This approach seems more reasonable than adding additional methods to the base spec, since no existing clients currently implement any methods that are added to the spec. Cheers, Elias X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CKODaa032066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:24:14 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1CKO5Ke018807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:24:08 -0800 Message-ID: <420E65E4.9080906@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:24:04 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030307090005090600040805" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:24:17 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030307090005090600040805 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080302080009000101090608" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080302080009000101090608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Tim Hare wrote: > >> if: The components and properties presented by a radically simple >> implementation are a subset of iCalendar, so current implementations >> _should_, if they are compliant, be able to accept these items. > > > I got a question about the simplification. Some of the simplifications > are not compatible with the current spec. (like the way timezones are > supposed to be moved to an extension. Even with the extension you still > must store the start time in utc) Current implementations can handle start time in UTC. And current implementations can handle VEVENTS in UTC without a time zone. So please point out what makes these objects incompatable. It is my belief that any iCal-Basic object can be understood by all current iCalendar implementations. If not, PLEASE point out why not. > On the other side, there is talk about seeing what current clients can > do, and remove the rest from the spec. > But if the spec will not be compatible, why look at current client? Why > not start from the start, and see what you would need to do good > calendaring, instead of looking at the bugs in current clients. Or the other approach. Split out publishing / METHOD:PUBLISH from; data exchange, scheduling, and storage. The vast majority of implementations do not do scheduling. So why not split it out? As far as I can tell the only noticable issue is infinate recurring entries. So could we add a propertry or parameter that says, "and there are more so when you run out - send a METHOD:REFRESH to get the next year (or whatever) of them" ? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------080302080009000101090608 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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jRQMRHwiyCGdgwedEUBIMa8H2nMKS+dCyajDOQ/aGvQRPj+Rnz4+DM8e3sEKSdzu3PPB7ol9 7RUHoBRecpbXU6c0oD9Bo3Z9qJrdVW2/A9R9mPHJUAPGQ5nrFQS4EcH4xT8pEfJ7xcQoiCWs HMnrgB45PFJOlE4GTya32OQ6CcCGjtr38bsUbStO2GQbnagLZ5U+X6xCP5mVGAAAAAAAAA== --------------ms030307090005090600040805-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CKEWaa030996 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:14:33 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1CKEIKe018745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:14:26 -0800 Message-ID: <420E6399.8030301@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:14:17 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420D3A4E.5040103@exedo.nl> <420D3E61.2060901@Royer.com> <200502121034.44137.reinhold@kainhofer.com> In-Reply-To: <200502121034.44137.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040405090603030004040305" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:14:35 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040405090603030004040305 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070507000000090307060303" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070507000000090307060303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > > You already need everything everyone needs for simple data exchange like > drag'n'drop! And iCalendar was designed for exactly these kinds of thing (at > least that's how I understand the intro). For drag'n'drop you do not need a calendar name. You do not need access control, authentication, and other things stuffed into the object. You do not need to have information about how to create objects, delete object, tracking of who got what revisions, ... for drag'n'drop'. Publishing or METHOD:PUBLISH does not need any of those and other things. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------070507000000090307060303 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------070507000000090307060303-- --------------ms040405090603030004040305 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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OCCQ4IRQPCRaw1HT+yArMdeCGzbQ4fk1mvQielsqiZTS6sMYf8LkPguf4dJd6+otOj1rghAN ril7c1sVgRepYsLpIS9yvClaUMJsDjUiFvnT0GOVZqg36/HpHi6JJxNKy2uJ7gesuTm7ieVS oAtQdNaB9G1KpVcxuXSWsFE0kRmFQ3gXAlRV7Qu/C3kkrsv+FFqcqAU5HG7wUAAAAAAAAA== --------------ms040405090603030004040305-- X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.33]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1CD3BaZ029801 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:03:11 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1CD3AHV057761 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:03:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420DFE8D.2060301@exedo.nl> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:03:09 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:03:14 -0000 Tim Hare wrote: > if: The components and properties presented by a radically simple > implementation are a subset of iCalendar, so current implementations > _should_, if they are compliant, be able to accept these items. I got a question about the simplification. Some of the simplifications are not compatible with the current spec. (like the way timezones are supposed to be moved to an extension. Even with the extension you still must store the start time in utc) On the other side, there is talk about seeing what current clients can do, and remove the rest from the spec. But if the spec will not be compatible, why look at current client? Why not start from the start, and see what you would need to do good calendaring, instead of looking at the bugs in current clients. Michiel X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1C9dYaa017252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:39:35 -0800 Received: from ip6-localhost (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1C9dViM025114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:39:33 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:39:29 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.92 References: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <OF6EFDEEB2.D8C1D211-ON85256FA5.00806B61-05256FA5.00809AFD@egenconsulting.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050211201730.02d0a120@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211201730.02d0a120@mail.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1170573.1Y8MnYdoqU"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502121039.31039.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:39:48 -0000 --nextPart1170573.1Y8MnYdoqU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Am Samstag, 12. Februar 2005 02:26 schrieb Tim Hare: > Calsify / iCal-Basic is about finding that least common denominator point > that everyone can agree to implement so that users do not have to worry > about their publishing or scheduling of events being accepted. As an > individual user, I want calendaring to be just as simple as e-mail is now= - Hehe, you chose the wrong example here. Do you know how complex the=20 specification for email is (in particular the mime spec and all the various= =20 encodings possible)? iCalendar is trivial compared to those specs...=20 Just because something appears simple to the user, doesn't mean that the=20 specification behind it is simple. Most times I think it's just the=20 opposite...=20 Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org/, KOrganizer / KPilot maintain= er --nextPart1170573.1Y8MnYdoqU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDc7STqjEwhXvPN0RAoqNAKDdstduOQCVGUn+FIcI7g4aN+hXbQCcCSue cm2FFNicXZwutSGBr+Z3eCc= =n5xG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1170573.1Y8MnYdoqU-- X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1C9Ymaa017141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:34:50 -0800 Received: from ip6-localhost (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1C9Yjrb024608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:34:47 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:34:42 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.92 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420D3A4E.5040103@exedo.nl> <420D3E61.2060901@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420D3E61.2060901@Royer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3710403.xWqcledKGE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502121034.44137.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:34:57 -0000 --nextPart3710403.xWqcledKGE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Am Samstag, 12. Februar 2005 00:23 schrieb Doug Royer: > Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > > ... I'm thinking about the way sunbird handles > > sharing a calendar here. You don't want to lose the recurrence > > information the next time you open the file. > > People and applications use ICS files as their cal store, > however iCalendar was not designed as a file store. Trying to > make it do both is part of the problem. You end up with > everything everyone needs. You already need everything everyone needs for simple data exchange like=20 drag'n'drop! And iCalendar was designed for exactly these kinds of thing (= at=20 least that's how I understand the intro). Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org/, KOrganizer / KPilot maintain= er --nextPart3710403.xWqcledKGE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDc20TqjEwhXvPN0RAscDAKDdiJ276p9eeQwjrXD7Ezqui9Y32wCg2Yem mAAi4AGPHaVDUIhC/TAJIcE= =rMeE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3710403.xWqcledKGE-- X-Envelope-From: TimHare@comcast.net X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1C1RwaZ017570 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:27:58 -0800 Received: from computer.comcast.net (pcp0011451694pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[69.244.223.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005021201275201500e0oepe>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:27:53 +0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211201730.02d0a120@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:26:42 -0500 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? In-Reply-To: <OF6EFDEEB2.D8C1D211-ON85256FA5.00806B61-05256FA5.00809AFD@ egenconsulting.com> References: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <OF6EFDEEB2.D8C1D211-ON85256FA5.00806B61-05256FA5.00809AFD@egenconsulting.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 1.75 (*) DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:27:58 -0000 Wow - I do seem to have a penchant for stirring up discussion! I admit, here, that I probably went too far with the simplification idea. I still really want to see UTC as the common exchange time format, but I can see the point of retaining some RRULE idea. Some of the ideas / discussion in response bring out an important (to me) point: Calsify / iCal-Basic is about finding that least common denominator point that everyone can agree to implement so that users do not have to worry about their publishing or scheduling of events being accepted. As an individual user, I want calendaring to be just as simple as e-mail is now - there must be a set of functions that I can reasonably expect to be there in any calendaring tool I use. I don't want to stop and think about it, I just want to create the event/meeting/whatever and click 'OK' Do we have any way to determine what this common set of functions is right now? Do the Interop reports from Calconnect give us enough information (yet)? Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1C13xaa015702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:04:00 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1C13tKe005847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:03:58 -0800 Message-ID: <420D55FB.2020503@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:03:55 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050004020803060707000402" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:04:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050004020803060707000402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Since sending two representations is kind of expensive (but as Nathaniel > pointed out, in this age of BitTorrent, who would notice?), a version n > identification would seem to be the better solution. I don't agree with > using VERSION: 3.0, however. To me, it makes more sense for the > radically simple versions to be VERSION: 1.5 - i.e. more than vCalendar > and less than the current iCalendar. > The iCal VERSION property takes a range. So we could do: VERSION:2.0,2.1 VERSION:2.0.3.0 .... That could mean that the sender supports a newer version and understands the old. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------050004020803060707000402 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------050004020803060707000402-- X-Envelope-From: TimHare@comcast.net X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1C0uuaZ013237 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:56:56 -0800 Received: from computer.comcast.net (pcp0011451694pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[69.244.223.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005021200564901300m9j85e>; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:56:49 +0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050211000218.02d15af0@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:55:38 -0500 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 1.75 (*) DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Comments on radical simplification and bumping the version X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:56:57 -0000 if: The components and properties presented by a radically simple implementation are a subset of iCalendar, so current implementations _should_, if they are compliant, be able to accept these items. and if: Sending items to a radically simple implementation means that components and properties which are not part of the radically simplified set should not be sent, or should be sent only as an alterative representation then: there needs to be a way for current implementations to know what they're exchanging items with so they can send only the simple subset or: they send two representations and recipients use what they can deal with Since sending two representations is kind of expensive (but as Nathaniel pointed out, in this age of BitTorrent, who would notice?), a version n identification would seem to be the better solution. I don't agree with using VERSION: 3.0, however. To me, it makes more sense for the radically simple versions to be VERSION: 1.5 - i.e. more than vCalendar and less than the current iCalendar. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BNbTaZ032540; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:37:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: <420D0DB9.1070301@ScheduleWorld.com> To: Mark Swanson <mark@scheduleworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF4282D381.5A291D41-ON85256FA5.0081AC78-05256FA5.0081C57E@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:37:28 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/11/2005 06:37:29 PM, Serialize complete at 02/11/2005 06:37:29 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.89 () HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME,UPPERCASE_25_50 Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: EXRULE and multiple RRULEs - Frank Dawson store examples X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:37:32 -0000 Here's what Frank posted 8/18/1999 - wow that's a long time ago...... 8-) ============================================= >This is Sam's bakery's opening times for the year 2000 and onward. > >Sam's bakery is open from 7 to 12 and 13 to 18, Monday through Thursday. >(They close for lunch between 12 and 13) >Sam's is open from 7 to 12 and 13 to 15.30 on Fridays >Sam's is open from 9 to 13 on Saturdays >Sam's is closed on Sundays >Sam's does not open on Saturdays during the period of July 5 to August 5 >Sam shuts down on the following holidays; Jan 1, Feb, 12 July 9, Oct 8, Dec >24, 25 FYI. I think you mean EXDATE, not EDATE in your original note. The easiest way to represent these store hours is to define separate VEVENTs and relate them using the RELATED-TO property. How about this using four events, one for the weekday morning store hours, a second for the weekday MO-TH afternoon store hours, a third for the weekday FR afternoon store hours and a fourth for the weekend store hours. Interesting, this is very much the same way that the store hours would be listed on the front door or on a website for the store! Actually, it is VERY important to keep the store hours as separate VEVENTS, as there will most probably be different store help for each. Your know the quirks of these unions ;-) In addition, if you copy the events on to the employee's work calendars you will want them as separate events. Bill won't want to see he is working the weekend when he has a hot date with Sally! There are probably other good reasons to have these as separate but linked/related events too. BEGIN:VCALENDAR VERSION:2.0 METHOD:PUBLISH BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T100000Z UID:123 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T070000 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T120000 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery Weekday Morning Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:124 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T100001Z UID:124 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T130000 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T180000 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery MO-TH Afternoon Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T100001Z UID:125 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990101T130000 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990101T183000 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery FR Afternoon Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=FR EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T100001Z UID:126 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990102T090000 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990102T130000 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery Weekend Hours DESCRIPTION:NOTE: We are closed SUNDAYS.\n We will also be closed on Saturdays, from July 5 through August 5.\n We hope you enjoy your summer holidays also! -- Sam's RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=SA EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 EXDATE:19990710,19990717,19990724,19990731 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:124 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR One thing this exercise does point out is that it would have been very useful to have a ";START=" RECUR value, rule component. This would have been useful in the EXRULE definition for the Saturday close dates. For example, with this enhancement: EXRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=SA;START=19990710;UNTIL=19990805 Maybe Doug Royer could add this to his issues list? -- Frank Mark Swanson <mark@scheduleworld.com> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/11/2005 02:55 PM To ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject [Fwd: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs] Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > On Friday 11 February 2005 19:27, Doug Royer wrote: > >>Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. >>Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? > > > I don't think it's necessary to have multiple RRULES. > Is there any application / library that supports multiple RRULES in one event > at all? libkcal (and thus all KDE applications that use iCalendar, like The ScheduleWorld iCalendar library does. If I remember right Frank Dawson posted some examples of store hours specified with multiple RRULEs (and more). -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BNStaZ031559; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:28:56 -0800 In-Reply-To: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> To: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF99C8B4D4.26B2EFC3-ON85256FA5.0080F285-05256FA5.0080FD5C@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:56 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/11/2005 06:28:56 PM, Serialize complete at 02/11/2005 06:28:56 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.235 () HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:28:58 -0000 Yes indeed, Cyrus, I think we can arrange for test examples to be on the Calconnect website. Bravo! ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/11/2005 01:04 PM To Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs To help with interop testing, I have made the following available: 1) < http://www.mulberrymail.com/davroot/calendars/public/iCalendarTests/2445AllExamples.ics > This contains all the recurrence examples from 2445 Section 4.8.5.4 in one .ics file. The SUMMARY of each item indicates the example number in order from that section. The DESCRIPTION is the description from 2445 for each example. Note that some examples have a couple of variants and these are indicated by additional letters in the numbering (e.g. 05a 05b etc). Most of the examples use start dates in 1997, but there are some unbounded examples that will fill up the calendar display e.g. 'Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day'. 2) < http://www.mulberrymail.com/davroot/calendars/public/iCalendarTests/PayDay.ics > This contains a single recurring event that uses a BYSETPOS. It corresponds to 'the last weekday in the month'. Feel free to use these in whatever way you want. If you have your own set of test events etc that you could share please let me know. Ultimately it would make sense to have all those on say the Calconnect website to help people do implementations. I am sure we can arrange that if there is interest... -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BNOiaZ031408; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:24:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> To: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF6EFDEEB2.D8C1D211-ON85256FA5.00806B61-05256FA5.00809AFD@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:24:44 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/11/2005 06:24:45 PM, Serialize complete at 02/11/2005 06:24:45 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.683 () HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:24:48 -0000 Helge, I think it's a pretty safe bet that the vendors you stated in your note do not 100% support the rrules icalendar specs - I'd be surprised if they did 50%. ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/11/2005 12:04 PM To ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? On Feb 11, 2005, at 17:33, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Helge Hess wrote: >> If you have some standard you basically always loose information >> since you need to find a viable common denominator. > I think that is the wrong approach. Its not an approach at all, its just a statement/fact. Most clients/servers use iCalendar for interoperability, not for their implementation (and can therefore only expose iCal features, not their full functionality). This is a bit different for most OpenSource clients, which also use iCalendar for storing the information. > Fix the clients. > Or come up with something completly new, that new clients can > implement correctly. But that will take even longer. You have the assumption that fixing the clients is an easy and viable task. I had the impression that currently rrules can represent every recurrence model which was supported by the initial protocol creators. This in turn makes it very complex and forces everyone to implement all the rrules of the others (and in practice nobody does that which makes rrules not interoperable). But people suggested that I might be wrong on how compliant current clients are. Do Outlook, Kontact, Evolution, Mozilla, iCal.app really support 100% of the currently specified iCalendar rrules? I would be surprised, but pleased to hear some actual investigation on that. > imo extensions also are the wrong solution. If i want to publish my > calendar, i can't use the extensions, because i don't know what other > clients will read the file. Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, if not, he will fall back to the base spec. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BNNHaa031231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:23:18 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BNNDKe004460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:23:15 -0800 Message-ID: <420D3E61.2060901@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:23:13 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> <420D1A81.3080206@Royer.com> <420D3A4E.5040103@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420D3A4E.5040103@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040702030305020306000201" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:23:21 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040702030305020306000201 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020807030700030606050205" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020807030700030606050205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > ... I'm thinking about the way sunbird handles > sharing a calendar here. You don't want to lose the recurrence > information the next time you open the file. People and applications use ICS files as their cal store, however iCalendar was not designed as a file store. Trying to make it do both is part of the problem. You end up with everything everyone needs. What you need in a cal store and what you need to schedule with someone is not the same set of data. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------020807030700030606050205 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> <420D1A81.3080206@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420D1A81.3080206@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:05:53 -0000 Doug Royer wrote: > Not with the ideas as proposed. The idea was to send out the data > expanded (into multiple components or RDATEs - in UTC) and > optionally also send the extension object unexpanded (w/ timezone info). > Ok, i was more thinking about extensions in general. The two proposed extensions indeed have a fallback. Also, i was more thinking about the current usage of timezones in dtstart. So for every extension there must be a fallback. > Only when you want the recipient to understand the GUI user had clicked > on weekly (or whatever) do you need to send out the recurrence rules. Yeah, and that is important imho. First because of the infinite recurring events. (Yes, i know they will end one day, but you don't know that end date. i'm still not happy with forcing the user to come up with some value, or to add a magic number) Second, for data exchange. I'm thinking about the way sunbird handles sharing a calendar here. You don't want to lose the recurrence information the next time you open the file. Also, in real-life i'm thinking as an appointment as something recurring, not as a list of dates. removing that information requires the client to show a nice visual list to make it possible for the user to see the relation (every monday). If i know it is every monday at 10, I just need to check my weekly schedule to see if it fits for me. Without the information, i need to check every week. (this can be automated of course, but that depends on the user putting everything on his calendar. Again forcing the user to do something to make the spec a bit less complex) Michiel X-Envelope-From: lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu X-Envelope-To: <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from cnr.cs.columbia.edu (cnr.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.133]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BLeiaa017176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:40:45 -0800 Received: from cnr.cs.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnr.cs.columbia.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1BLedwW006177; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:40:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu) Received: (from lennox@localhost) by cnr.cs.columbia.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j1BLecBN006174; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:40:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lennox) From: Jonathan Lennox <lennox@cs.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16909.9814.612031.541053@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:40:38 -0500 To: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs In-Reply-To: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> References: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:40:48 -0000 On Friday, February 11 2005, "Cyrus Daboo" wrote to "Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org" saying: > If you have your own set of test events etc that you could share please let > me know. Ultimately it would make sense to have all those on say the > Calconnect website to help people do implementations. I am sure we can > arrange that if there is interest... Would you be interested in a set of "pathological corner case RRULEs"? We discussed a bunch of these on the list back in 2001. (Be aware that there may not be consensus about what they mean...) -- Jonathan Lennox lennox@cs.columbia.edu X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BL0Kaa004446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:00:21 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BL0DKe002578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:00:16 -0800 Message-ID: <420D1CDD.8050802@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:00:13 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010503040802080400070001" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:00:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010503040802080400070001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Helge Hess wrote: > >> Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If >> the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, >> if not, he will fall back to the base spec. > > > Let's assume that timezones move to an extension. The client i use > supports them. So, the start time of en event is defined with a > timezone. I publish the calendar. (upload the whole ics file). Someone > else reads it using a client that doesn't support timezones. How can he > fall back? he has to ignore the timezone information, because he doesn't > understand it. He can either use the time in the wrong timezone, or > ignore the time completely. Both is wrong. > So, if i want my calendar to be readable by other clients, i can't use > timezones. > The same story would hold for other extensions. Not with the ideas as proposed. The idea was to send out the data expanded (into multiple components or RDATEs - in UTC) and optionally also send the extension object unexpanded (w/ timezone info). For PUBLISH and most scheduling the expanded objects work just fine as they have to work with RDATEs right now anyway. Only when you want the recipient to understand the GUI user had clicked on weekly (or whatever) do you need to send out the recurrence rules. If you wish to synchronize entire objects including the ORGANIZERS intent, then you do care about the recurrence rules. If you doing scheduling with others - you just care if they can attend the instance times. In most cases, I do not visually check the recurrence rules in the GUI or ICS file, I just look at when it places dates in my calendar, or what any accompanying descriptive text sent in an associated MIME object says about the meeting. If a weekly meeting notice were sent out for one years worth of time and it had 10 exception dates in it. How many of you look at the GUI recurrence panel to see it? Many of the GUI's out there can not display such objects even when they can add them correctly to your calendar. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------010503040802080400070001 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------010503040802080400070001-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BKoIaa001515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:50:20 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BKoAKe002413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:50:13 -0800 Message-ID: <420D1A81.3080206@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:09 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030306020406080408080204" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:50:23 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030306020406080408080204 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050304010106090805010008" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050304010106090805010008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Helge Hess wrote: > >> Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If >> the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, >> if not, he will fall back to the base spec. > > > Let's assume that timezones move to an extension. The client i use > supports them. So, the start time of en event is defined with a > timezone. I publish the calendar. (upload the whole ics file). Someone > else reads it using a client that doesn't support timezones. How can he > fall back? he has to ignore the timezone information, because he doesn't > understand it. He can either use the time in the wrong timezone, or > ignore the time completely. Both is wrong. > So, if i want my calendar to be readable by other clients, i can't use > timezones. > The same story would hold for other extensions. Not with the ideas as proposed. The idea was to send out the data expanded (into multiple components or RDATEs - in UTC) and optionally also send the extension object unexpanded (w/ timezone info). For PUBLISH and most scheduling the expanded objects work just fine as they have to work with RDATEs right now anyway. Only when you want the recipient to understand the GUI user had clicked on weekly (or whatever) do you need to send out the recurrence rules. If you wish to synchronize entire objects including the ORGANIZERS intent, then you do care about the recurrence rules. If you doing scheduling with others - you just care if they can attend the instance times. In most cases, I do not visually check the recurrence rules in the GUI or ICS file, I just look at when it places dates in my calendar, or what any accompanying descriptive text sent in an associated MIME object says about the meeting. If a weekly meeting notice were sent out for one years worth of time and it had 10 exception dates in it. How many of you look at the GUI recurrence panel to see it? Many of the GUI's out there can not display such objects even when they can add them correctly to your calendar. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------050304010106090805010008 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------050304010106090805010008-- --------------ms030306020406080408080204 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification?] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:36:10 -0000 > On Feb 11, 2005, at 18:16, Mark Swanson wrote: > >> Well, ScheduleWorld 100% implements RRULEs. The GUI doesn't reflect >> this because then folks could create RRULEs that wouldn't interoperate >> with a few other products. > > > Isn't that a contradiction? What good is an rrule if you can't display > it? Of course I believe you that you can parse the iCalendar structure > of the rrule, but what good is the data if the user can't view/edit it? I didn't say the user couldn't view it. If any other product uses all of the RRULE capabilities it will render properly in ScheduleWorld. The event will be on the right day in the day/week/month/etc.. view. > Unless I'm missing something, not reflecting the rrule in the GUI is > exactly the same like not supporting it. And reflecting _all_ the > specified rrules in iCalendar should be quite difficult (if not > impossible if you still want to have good usability ;-). Again, iCalendar views and editing VEVENTs are different. At least when I overlay someone else's calendar with mine I will be able to see when they are busy - I don't even have to edit their VEVENT. >> My current impression is that RRULEs are fairly well supported - even >> by lesser known products like phpICalendar. > > > My impression is that a lot of clients use a similiar subset of the > specified rrules and that this subset works pretty well. But it might be > wrong. I think this group is on the right track by accepting RRULEs but perhaps limiting the recurring event concept to the useful already implemented subset by most vendors. -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BKSuaZ029103 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:28:57 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AA82D7E87 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:28:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5044C2D2861 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:28:22 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2d2673cbd8d21b086ca45506862ab958@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:28:50 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:29:02 -0000 On 11. Feb 2005, at 21:12 Uhr, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Let's assume that timezones move to an extension. The client i use > supports them. So, the start time of en event is defined with a > timezone. No, the start time would still be defined in UTC, the timezone would be added as a hint (actually a required one for the rrules extension). > I publish the calendar. (upload the whole ics file). Someone else > reads it using a client that doesn't support timezones. How can he > fall back? See above, the times will always be in UTC, the timezone is additional information. So its a non-issue. > he has to ignore the timezone information, because he doesn't > understand it. Yes, and it won't hurt since the time value is always in UTC, there is no reason to do it otherwise. We only transport timezone information to a) add information for editors/viewers b) to allow for rrules You seem to miss the reasons when and why timezones are required in the protocol/format? I'm somewhat surprised about that, since exactly this was discussed only some weeks ago including some details on how this could be done format-wise. > He can either use the time in the wrong timezone, or ignore the time > completely. Both is wrong. Yes, because your assumptions is wrong. To be up/downwards compatible timevalues would always be in UTC. > So, if i want my calendar to be readable by other clients, i can't use > timezones. > The same story would hold for other extensions. Of course extensions must be properly done to be compatible, but so far both discussed items can be easily done as extensions while still providing downwards compatibility AND provide the same functionality like before. BTW: we do not talk about timezone awareness in the client, this has to be available in any case. This is only about including timezone information in the protocol entity which is only required for recurrences and to one kind of allday appointments (as far as I can see). Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.28]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BKCSaZ024610 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:12:29 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BKCR7i056118 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:12:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420D11AA.4050506@exedo.nl> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:12:26 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:12:40 -0000 Helge Hess wrote: > Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If the > "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, if > not, he will fall back to the base spec. Let's assume that timezones move to an extension. The client i use supports them. So, the start time of en event is defined with a timezone. I publish the calendar. (upload the whole ics file). Someone else reads it using a client that doesn't support timezones. How can he fall back? he has to ignore the timezone information, because he doesn't understand it. He can either use the time in the wrong timezone, or ignore the time completely. Both is wrong. So, if i want my calendar to be readable by other clients, i can't use timezones. The same story would hold for other extensions. Michiel X-Envelope-From: mark@ScheduleWorld.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from ns1.webservicesolutions.com (ns1.webservicesolutions.com [69.44.62.208]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j1BJtZaZ022049 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:35 -0800 Received: from 10.0.2.4 ([10.0.2.4]) by ns1.webservicesolutions.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.2.1-RC1) with SMTP ID 487 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:55:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420D0DB9.1070301@ScheduleWorld.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:55:37 -0500 From: Mark Swanson <mark@ScheduleWorld.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:55:41 -0000 Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > On Friday 11 February 2005 19:27, Doug Royer wrote: > >>Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. >>Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? > > > I don't think it's necessary to have multiple RRULES. > Is there any application / library that supports multiple RRULES in one event > at all? libkcal (and thus all KDE applications that use iCalendar, like The ScheduleWorld iCalendar library does. If I remember right Frank Dawson posted some examples of store hours specified with multiple RRULEs (and more). -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BJAsaa014323 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:10:55 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BJAlKe001081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <420D0337.1040504@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:10:47 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs References: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> <200502111946.17791.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <B2958BFF244C044B12396D0E@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <B2958BFF244C044B12396D0E@ninevah.local> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070002030901080408020006" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 1.441 (*) FORGED_RCVD_HELO,UNDISC_RECIPS X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:11:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070002030901080408020006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Some of my messages are having their content stripped out by the mailing list program - but only to some people - so this is a resend]. > However, are we talking about multiple RRULEs per component, or multiple > RRULEs per set of instances? If we limit it to per component, then what > is to stop someone from creating a new 'overridden' instance that > includes a second RRULE as a separate component (with the same UID etc)? > Do you mean a METHOD:ADD with an new RRULE? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------070002030901080408020006 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------070002030901080408020006-- X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BJ9CaZ014083 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:09:12 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F92E2D86A4 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:08:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F552D867F for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:08:37 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200502111957.12448.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <200502111914.47849.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <fb7a8acbb2ed318a2244f3cd5574e8f1@opengroupware.org> <200502111957.12448.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <536f05011113ca2419e06220254338c2@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:09:06 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:09:23 -0000 On 11. Feb 2005, at 19:57 Uhr, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Yes, but the problem is that the list of RDATEs is not only the result > from > the RRULE, but it might also contain additional dates, which are > already in > the "old" RDATE list according to rfc2445. > > E.g. if a file contains: > DTSTART:20050109T070000Z > RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=SU;COUNT=2 > RDATE;VALUE=DATE:20050109,20050116,20050216 > > Then the recurrence rule is every sunday, but the rdate list also > contains an > additional occurrence on Feb 16. If this is a real world problem (say: more than one, non-MS implementation actively uses this construct), we obviously need some solution to this (eg a seperate field for one or the other). Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BJ6maa013677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:06:49 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BJ6hKe001022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:06:45 -0800 Message-ID: <420D0243.1040005@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:06:43 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs References: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> <200502111946.17791.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <B2958BFF244C044B12396D0E@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <B2958BFF244C044B12396D0E@ninevah.local> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050908050405020408010403" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:58 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050908050405020408010403 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050705090406060905030904" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050705090406060905030904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cyrus Daboo wrote: > > However, are we talking about multiple RRULEs per component, or multiple > RRULEs per set of instances? If we limit it to per component, then what > is to stop someone from creating a new 'overridden' instance that > includes a second RRULE as a separate component (with the same UID etc)? > You mean METHOD:ADD that contains a new RRULE? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------050705090406060905030904 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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SdVdcBKwFD4tFgdp8mpNpk2d36CkXiUfq/2ReZtaYve4VzWeD1NTMptAV2Q8tFavFPh6s+oZ oYsrPT4/wiFEYqrIZ64yFjKIC2bGtfpYSuD/2hrezzzKHKEp4ZFPJvmEiCortXMrdTz4QC0x BUGyO/J5TdE8Vcdp4jvR0w46Fj2muB+cVnH5M0NOLWrkM5SNDQSHuCuMwsP9WwAAAAAAAA== --------------ms050908050405020408010403-- X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIxCaa012542 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:59:13 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ninevah.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1BIod6E013306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:59:09 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs Message-ID: <B2958BFF244C044B12396D0E@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <200502111946.17791.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> <200502111946.17791.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a4 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:59:18 -0000 Hi Reinhold, --On February 11, 2005 7:46:16 PM +0100 Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> wrote: >> Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. >> Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? > > I don't think it's necessary to have multiple RRULES. > Is there any application / library that supports multiple RRULES in one > event at all? libkcal (and thus all KDE applications that use iCalendar, > like KOrganizer / Kontact, KArm, KAlarm, KPilot) at least doesn't > support multiple rrules. > >> Does anyone send EXRULE's ? > > Please don't use the word "send", as this suggests we're only about > sending invitations and PUBLISH. We're also talking about arbitrary data > exchange. > > I'm not aware of any application that uses EXRULE's, but that doesn't > mean anything. At least libkcal doesn't support EXRULE at all, only > EXDATE. Lets make the distinction between 'accepting' a protocol element, 'preserving' that protocol element and 'generating' it. My implementation will accept and preserve multiple RRULEs, EXRULEs, RDATEs and EXDATEs and produce the (hopefully) correct set of instances for display. However, it will only allow users to generate new recurrences with a single RRULE. RDATES/EXDATEs do get generated when instances get overridden. I suspect a lot of other implementations do the same. Assuming everyone behaves in that way, then it is perfectly fine to deprecate EXRULEs and multiple RRULEs per component. However, are we talking about multiple RRULEs per component, or multiple RRULEs per set of instances? If we limit it to per component, then what is to stop someone from creating a new 'overridden' instance that includes a second RRULE as a separate component (with the same UID etc)? -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIvEaa012311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:57:16 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BIvDLO031068 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:57:14 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:57:10 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <200502111914.47849.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <fb7a8acbb2ed318a2244f3cd5574e8f1@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <fb7a8acbb2ed318a2244f3cd5574e8f1@opengroupware.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart11203786.mjsqKWJglJ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111957.12448.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:57:22 -0000 --nextPart11203786.mjsqKWJglJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 19:41, Helge Hess wrote: > > And if the gui supports recurrence rules, you'd manually > > need to check each of the dates in the RDATE if it is an additional > > exception > > to the RRULE... > > No. Why is the rrule still require if you have all individual instances > anyway? Its required to support the editor panel in the calendering > client. If it supports the rrule, it can show proper UI for changing > the cycle. Yes, but the problem is that the list of RDATEs is not only the result from= =20 the RRULE, but it might also contain additional dates, which are already in= =20 the "old" RDATE list according to rfc2445.=20 E.g. if a file contains: DTSTART:20050109T070000Z RRULE:FREQ=3DWEEKLY;BYDAY=3DSU;COUNT=3D2 RDATE;VALUE=3DDATE:20050109,20050116,20050216 Then the recurrence rule is every sunday, but the rdate list also contains = an=20 additional occurrence on Feb 16. So one in the GUI one has to check each of= =20 the dates in RDATE if it was generated by the RRULE, or if it is an=20 additional occurrence. Such additional occurrences would need to be edited= =20 differently (like exception dates). Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart11203786.mjsqKWJglJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDQAITqjEwhXvPN0RAnhDAKCpU5+QrnVSItHchYKmm5IWea9fTwCfdeO3 DEN1vDXzP8DEVU+pR8oNhxs= =yzNB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart11203786.mjsqKWJglJ-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIt1aa011981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:55:03 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BIsrKe000725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:54:55 -0800 Message-ID: <420CFF7D.10105@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:54:53 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040709070408050009010308" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:55:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040709070408050009010308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? Does anyone send EXRULE's ? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------040709070408050009010308 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------040709070408050009010308-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIoOaa011564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:50:25 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BIoHKe000658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:50:19 -0800 Message-ID: <420CFE69.5050107@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:50:17 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040303070905040707010900" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:50:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040303070905040707010900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PUBLISH vs Scheduling vs Data Exchange. And the so called infinitely recurring appointment is an excuse we use when we really do not know the end date. No meeting lasts forever. At some point no one will care about our birthday. For PUBLISH calendars: Most of the time you do not care. If it is a PUBLISH then there is no scheduling anyway. (And most implementations put their calendars on URL's without a METHOD property any way - so there really can not be scheduling). As for reverse engineering the RDATEs back into recurrence rules. For PUBLISH calendars I do not think that I do go to the recurrence tab and look at the recurrence rule. I just look at my screen and notice that it is every Tuesday at noon. And visually notice the exceptions. And a large percentage of implementations do not do scheduling, they just post or email non-iTIP calendars to some URL. If I post my personal calendar a year in advance, is that not sufficient as it really will be updated anyway? Two years? Why will RDATE's not be sufficient? For Scheduled calendars: Again, is not one or two years sufficient? If not - why? Cameron is right, the first thing we do when scheduling is compare the instance times, not the recurrence rules. If I get a scheduling request that just happens to be every Tuesday at noon, I can simply look at the screen and notice the times. Later if an important customer wants to meet on a Tuesday at noon. Do I care about the recurrence rules? No, I look and my screen, notice that my standard Tuesday noon meeting is in the way and I say yes to the customer anyway. And I let the GUI sort it out. For Data Exchange: This is when we need to be able to transfer the information about the intent of the ORGANIZER. This is when recurrence rules matter. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------040303070905040707010900 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------040303070905040707010900-- X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIkJaa011172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:46:21 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BIkILm030419 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:46:19 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:46:16 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3298641.tlRPbXO2lT"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111946.17791.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:46:26 -0000 --nextPart3298641.tlRPbXO2lT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 19:27, Doug Royer wrote: > Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. > Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? I don't think it's necessary to have multiple RRULES. Is there any application / library that supports multiple RRULES in one eve= nt=20 at all? libkcal (and thus all KDE applications that use iCalendar, like=20 KOrganizer / Kontact, KArm, KAlarm, KPilot) at least doesn't support multip= le=20 rrules. > Does anyone send EXRULE's ? Please don't use the word "send", as this suggests we're only about sending= =20 invitations and PUBLISH. We're also talking about arbitrary data exchange. I'm not aware of any application that uses EXRULE's, but that doesn't mean= =20 anything. At least libkcal doesn't support EXRULE at all, only EXDATE. Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart3298641.tlRPbXO2lT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDP15TqjEwhXvPN0RAhqKAKDM3Wz/TbplG2arZiVVXZDk3fA5CQCgkuhu CeCuSmNlctFS8VSwo2EsG20= =vLQN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3298641.tlRPbXO2lT-- X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIfnaZ010554 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:41:49 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7972D8665 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:41:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5252D8632 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:41:14 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200502111914.47849.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <200502111828.07111.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <fd26038e8b9b999b0cfacbf42a54e870@opengroupware.org> <200502111914.47849.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <fb7a8acbb2ed318a2244f3cd5574e8f1@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:41:43 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:41:58 -0000 On 11. Feb 2005, at 19:14 Uhr, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > If I understand you correctly, the RDATE list would now be the list of > all recurrences. All instances of a recurrence, yes. > And if the gui supports recurrence rules, you'd manually > need to check each of the dates in the RDATE if it is an additional > exception > to the RRULE... No. Why is the rrule still require if you have all individual instances anyway? Its required to support the editor panel in the calendering client. If it supports the rrule, it can show proper UI for changing the cycle. Also if a server or client gets an event with the rrule and supports the rrule, it only needs to store one event (but would still need to transmit the full set when interacting). >> The events are still connected, the idea was not to remove the >> connection between the events but to remove the pretty complex rrule >> language. > Yes, but if you use an rrule, you would only have one vevent with the > rrule, > not the whole chain of vevents. Yes, it certainly has some advantages (eg it requires small transactions). But it also has major disadvantages which where already pointed out. > BTW, I think it's an either or. Either we don't allow any recurrence > rules at > all (which in my eyes would completely remove interoperability, since > almost > all GUIs have settings for recurrence rule), or we need the whole > complex > (but complete) RRULE language. The choice to be made is whether rrules are supported in the basic draft or not. If you do, you also need to provide full timezone support, so the draft will get quite complex (not significant gain to what we have now). Of course you could (and probably should) still restrict the rrule language if the choice goes for the latter. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIVeaa008958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:31:42 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BIVcnL029908 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:31:40 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:31:35 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CE88A.403@ScheduleWorld.com> <c2eab631fdd643ea0d1f198119d33268@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <c2eab631fdd643ea0d1f198119d33268@opengroupware.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart4478703.8CgTpzCo2R"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111931.37173.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:31:51 -0000 --nextPart4478703.8CgTpzCo2R Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 18:35, Helge Hess wrote: > On Feb 11, 2005, at 18:16, Mark Swanson wrote: > > Well, ScheduleWorld 100% implements RRULEs. The GUI doesn't reflect > > this because then folks could create RRULEs that wouldn't interoperate > > with a few other products. > > Isn't that a contradiction? What good is an rrule if you can't display > it? Of course I believe you that you can parse the iCalendar structure > of the rrule, but what good is the data if the user can't view/edit it? All instances of that event will be correctly displayed. Unless you edit th= at=20 event, you don't loose any data. Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart4478703.8CgTpzCo2R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDPoJTqjEwhXvPN0RAlCGAJ9ty/8M2gBwJremW/rjA+8jo1ka6ACgpM1y dIq8gdvIPXh6Jtl38wc3Dwo= =JhDd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart4478703.8CgTpzCo2R-- X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BISDaZ008002 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:28:14 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6682D8601 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:27:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28032D85FF for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:27:38 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200502111830.27125.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <200502111830.27125.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <b494adc217498a151852acb2c67b5c28@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:28:07 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:24 -0000 On 11. Feb 2005, at 18:30 Uhr, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > I think it basically boils down to the two views of standards: > 1) A standard should describe what every application MUST implement. > If an > application wants to do something more, it's on its own. ("lowest > common > denominator") > 2) A standard gives a suggestion how an application might implement > any (even > very exotic) feature. No application will ever implement full support > for > every little detail of such a standard, but if it implements one > feature, it > can be sure that any other application that implements a similar > feature will > be able to reuse the data. I think this is painted rather black and white which is not how it needs to be. As mentioned there can be extensions and things like rrules and timezones certainly make a lot of sense. But to have interoperability (aka a _standard_) you MUST agree on certain blocks of functionality. I can't see how a standard can work otherwise. Your example of "if it implements one feature, it can be sure that any other application that implements a similar feature will be able to reuse the data" is obviously wrong, because this other application will not understand some other obscure feature you are using in the same iCalendar entity. > it seems most people here think that a standard is just for those > parts that > every application must implement (i.e. every detail of a standard > needs to be > supported by an application). Well, I would say thats the core definition of the word "standard" and not the "thinking" of the people here ;-) > However, what I like so much about iCalendar is that it gives you a > standardized way for lots of advanced features. Si, iCalendar currently seems to be more like a framework to choose implementation suggestions from, less an actual standard (which someone is really compliant with). I thought the goal of calsify was to fix exactly this situation. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIRAaa007733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:27:13 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BIR2Ke000309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:27:05 -0800 Message-ID: <420CF8F5.3020709@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:27:01 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030904030908040200060402" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] EXRULE and multiple RRULEs X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:27:25 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030904030908040200060402 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030903050702000805030801" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030903050702000805030801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Currently 2445 allows for multiple RRULEs per component. Can we agree that if RRULEs will remain, that they be limited to one? Does anyone send EXRULE's ? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------030903050702000805030801 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------030903050702000805030801-- --------------ms030904030908040200060402 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs In-Reply-To: <200502111917.46436.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111820200.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> References: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> <200502111917.46436.reinhold@kainhofer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Spam-Level: -- X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:21:28 -0000 On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > On Friday 11 February 2005 19:04, Cyrus Daboo wrote: >> Ultimately it would make sense to have all those on say the >> Calconnect website to help people do implementations. I am sure we can >> arrange that if there is interest... > > Yes, I'd be very interested in such an archive of test cases. that would be fantastic. I'm sure we can donate the few we have if useful. Libby > > Cheers, > Reinhold > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria > email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ > * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/ > * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer > X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIHnaa006108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:17:51 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BIHlP2027354 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:17:48 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:17:43 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1709980.XNNNNoxR4W"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111917.46436.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:18:01 -0000 --nextPart1709980.XNNNNoxR4W Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 19:04, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Ultimately it would make sense to have all those on say the > Calconnect website to help people do implementations. I am sure we can > arrange that if there is interest... Yes, I'd be very interested in such an archive of test cases. Cheers, Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart1709980.XNNNNoxR4W Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQBCDPbKTqjEwhXvPN0RAkJjAJ99WiJQ6e0mmRtS5W6ru7ee8ElFTgCYtCSC 9pBvVvKnoyXrAN9yvyhqlw== =ZIER -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1709980.XNNNNoxR4W-- X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIEqaa005796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:14:55 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BIEmZi027253 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:14:49 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:14:46 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <200502111828.07111.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <fd26038e8b9b999b0cfacbf42a54e870@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <fd26038e8b9b999b0cfacbf42a54e870@opengroupware.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart4407773.Gcf5D1DKSy"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111914.47849.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:15:39 -0000 --nextPart4407773.Gcf5D1DKSy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 18:39, Helge Hess wrote: > On Feb 11, 2005, at 18:28, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > >> Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If > >> the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, > >> if not, he will fall back to the base spec. > > > > Yes, exactly. And that is the problem here. > > If you move recurrence information to the extension and you use a > > recurrence, > > any client which does not understand that recurrence extension will > > just show > > the very first occurrence but none of the other occurrences. > > Why is that? The client will show a sequence of connected events, it > just doesn't know the algorithm the sequence was built with. So the basic standard would require you to always send the whole list of=20 rdates, even if you then use a rrule with the extended standard? What if you want to use an rrule plus an additional recurrence on a differe= nt=20 date? Like a meeting each monday, but once it will happen on wednesday. Things like=20 RRULE:FREQ=3DWEEKLY;BYDAY=3DMO;COUNT=3D120 RDATE;VALUE=3DDATE:20050101,20050120,20050216 would then become invalid iCalendar syntax... Currently, the RRULE defines several dates, and the RDATE defines additiona= l=20 dates. If I understand you correctly, the RDATE list would now be the list = of=20 all recurrences. And if the gui supports recurrence rules, you'd manually=20 need to check each of the dates in the RDATE if it is an additional excepti= on=20 to the RRULE... > > So, to be sure that the receiving client really shows all occurrences > > one > > can't use the recurrence extension at all. Doesn't make too much > > sense, does > > it? > > No, but it isn't the way you describe it. > > The events are still connected, the idea was not to remove the > connection between the events but to remove the pretty complex rrule > language.=20 Yes, but if you use an rrule, you would only have one vevent with the rrule= ,=20 not the whole chain of vevents. BTW, I think it's an either or. Either we don't allow any recurrence rules = at=20 all (which in my eyes would completely remove interoperability, since almos= t=20 all GUIs have settings for recurrence rule), or we need the whole complex=20 (but complete) RRULE language. Reinhold Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart4407773.Gcf5D1DKSy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDPYXTqjEwhXvPN0RAjMFAKDCvYqXUp+AKs9DZWBf4FgmiUAIBwCfZ9EM C9xNTnZVtDv1esy12AIdPWo= =15Lr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart4407773.Gcf5D1DKSy-- X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BIE3aZ005719 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:14:03 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8BD2D8632 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:13:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A894B2D8598 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:13:28 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C33153702509AB6@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C33153702509AB6@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <93b029cf6235012cd7b910c9f2036302@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:13:57 +0100 To: "<ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>" <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:14:14 -0000 On 11. Feb 2005, at 18:59 Uhr, Cameron Stillion wrote: > I'm in complete agreement with your statement below - and I think this > is the sweet spot where calsify can make magic. Let's declare that > subset of RRULEs that seems to work and that people tend to implement > as > "the standard" and THEN we can enjoy debating what to add to (or remove > from) that specification. Just let me restate why we initially thought that removing rrules might be a major simplification: If we remove rrules this also should remove the necessity for timezones, so we could move to use UTC for all time based data which would be a HUGE gain (and reflect quite well what is done anyway by a lot of servers and clients). For example Kontact support for rrules is actually broken due to timezones (really: no offense intended! :-) since it normalizes the iCal files to UTC in the storage. This in turn removes the information on the times the event creator planned the cycle (so its actually quite useless in a multi timezone setups). IMHO its much worse to share incorrect information that to share a bit less information. Before someone gets this wrong again ;-), I'm _not_ suggesting to remove rrules nor timezones. I'm suggesting to move them into (optional) extensions to the base draft. This should be quite possible while still providing upward and downward compatibility. > (eg comparing interoperability between Sunbird and Kontact should be > done, but isn't particulary interesting since both use some derivate of > iCalendar. One would need to compare interoperability between eg > Outlook > and Sunbird or Notes and Kontact). BTW: this was supposed to mean: they all use some derivate "libical", not iCalendar. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BI7uaa005112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:07:57 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1BI7pKe032426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:07:54 -0800 Message-ID: <420CF476.4080702@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:07:50 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090106010100020007020206" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:08:39 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090106010100020007020206 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050103060901080402050103" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050103060901080402050103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PUBLISH vs Scheduling vs Data Exchange. And the so called infinitely recurring appointment is an excuse we use when we really do not know the end date. No meeting lasts forever. At some point no one will care about our birthday. For PUBLISH calendars: Most of the time you do not care. If it is a PUBLISH then there is no scheduling anyway. (And most implementations put their calendars on URL's without a METHOD property any way - so there really can not be scheduling). As for reverse engineering the RDATEs back into recurrence rules. For PUBLISH calendars I do not think that I do go to the recurrence tab and look at the recurrence rule. I just look at my screen and notice that it is every Tuesday at noon. And visually notice the exceptions. And a large percentage of implementations do not do scheduling, they just post or email non-iTIP calendars to some URL. If I post my personal calendar a year in advance, is that not sufficient as it really will be updated anyway? Two years? Why will RDATE's not be sufficient? For Scheduled calendars: Again, is not one or two years sufficient? If not - why? Cameron is right, the first thing we do when scheduling is compare the instance times, not the recurrence rules. If I get a scheduling request that just happens to be every Tuesday at noon, I can simply look at the screen and notice the times. Later if an important customer wants to meet on a Tuesday at noon. Do I care about the recurrence rules? No, I look and my screen, notice that my standard Tuesday noon meeting is in the way and I say yes to the customer anyway. And I let the GUI sort it out. For Data Exchange: This is when we need to be able to transfer the information about the intent of the ORGANIZER. This is when recurrence rules matter. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------050103060901080402050103 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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zIU4INQbcgtzuj8uLflRhk6D1ZBl90O/28LRNeEO+/C8EmqDqcvUecrKO55cvSBfAcdIA6rq 0WMCk2XxkeTiT3vqSep01t0vEIg24s+0roc5kFHoGF6GfEx7ja8uHStve4tS+iPSwLATTbYN 6zsmTKLoV+g1SSzEb3DvHoLwZUfx5a8NbexgW50m7KYJ9fIvo4UbBSGDOpsxcAAAAAAAAA== --------------ms090106010100020007020206-- X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BI46aa004683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:04:07 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ninevah.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1BHtZ6E012300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:55:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:04:04 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Message-ID: <2CE2311C4573512D7C40A9AF@ninevah.local> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a4 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Example RRULEs X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:04:18 -0000 To help with interop testing, I have made the following available: 1) <http://www.mulberrymail.com/davroot/calendars/public/iCalendarTests/2445AllExamples.ics> This contains all the recurrence examples from 2445 Section 4.8.5.4 in one .ics file. The SUMMARY of each item indicates the example number in order from that section. The DESCRIPTION is the description from 2445 for each example. Note that some examples have a couple of variants and these are indicated by additional letters in the numbering (e.g. 05a 05b etc). Most of the examples use start dates in 1997, but there are some unbounded examples that will fill up the calendar display e.g. 'Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day'. 2) <http://www.mulberrymail.com/davroot/calendars/public/iCalendarTests/PayDay.ics> This contains a single recurring event that uses a BYSETPOS. It corresponds to 'the last weekday in the month'. Feel free to use these in whatever way you want. If you have your own set of test events etc that you could share please let me know. Ultimately it would make sense to have all those on say the Calconnect website to help people do implementations. I am sure we can arrange that if there is interest... -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.26]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BI2caZ004553 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:02:39 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BI2c0d029928 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:02:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420CF33D.2000200@exedo.nl> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:02:37 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> <76C6A567A939E6CA5B306FD2@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <76C6A567A939E6CA5B306FD2@ninevah.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:02:49 -0000 Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Note that you almost always have to truncate an unbounded recurrence > when doing iTIP because you cannot do conflict resolution for an > unbounded recurrence. Should a (sane) limitation in one application of ical restrict ical itself? There are other ways a ical can be published and/or shared. Not all of them need conflict resolution. If i just publish calendar somewhere, i'm not doing iTIP. > I think this is reasonable because as a real world observation, I > believe that timed recurring events really are bounded in some fashion. > In practice they do, but you don't always know the end when creating the event. Forcing the user to come up with an arbitrary enddate should be avoided imo. Michiel X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHxKaZ004210 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:59:21 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:59:12 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:59:20 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:59:11 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:59:10 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C33153702509AB6@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Thread-Index: AcUQYHdxZQvozmcJRRCLNxC3W5B7ZwAAm8eA From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Helge Hess" <helge.hess@opengroupware.org>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2005 17:59:11.0822 (UTC) FILETIME=[642A2EE0:01C51063] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1BHxKaZ004210 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:59:28 -0000 Helge, I'm in complete agreement with your statement below - and I think this is the sweet spot where calsify can make magic. Let's declare that subset of RRULEs that seems to work and that people tend to implement as "the standard" and THEN we can enjoy debating what to add to (or remove from) that specification. cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Helge Hess Sent: Friday.11.February.2005 09.36 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? <snipped...> My impression is that a lot of clients use a similiar subset of the specified rrules and that this subset works pretty well. But it might be wrong. Also most of the newer clients are specifically build around iCalendar which obviously improves on that too. (eg comparing interoperability between Sunbird and Kontact should be done, but isn't particulary interesting since both use some derivate of iCalendar. One would need to compare interoperability between eg Outlook and Sunbird or Notes and Kontact). Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHdTaZ002609 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:39:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D362D8547 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:38:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.126] (gw.skyrix.com [213.211.192.97]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968E92D853D for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:38:54 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200502111828.07111.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <200502111828.07111.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <fd26038e8b9b999b0cfacbf42a54e870@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:39:24 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:39:37 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 18:28, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: >> Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If >> the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, >> if not, he will fall back to the base spec. > > Yes, exactly. And that is the problem here. > If you move recurrence information to the extension and you use a > recurrence, > any client which does not understand that recurrence extension will > just show > the very first occurrence but none of the other occurrences. Why is that? The client will show a sequence of connected events, it just doesn't know the algorithm the sequence was built with. > So, to be sure that the receiving client really shows all occurrences > one > can't use the recurrence extension at all. Doesn't make too much > sense, does > it? No, but it isn't the way you describe it. The events are still connected, the idea was not to remove the connection between the events but to remove the pretty complex rrule language. The latter would have the additional advantage that we could also drop timezones for the basic spec (another huge complication). But all this was already discussed some month ago? Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHa5aa002312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:36:06 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BHa3xg026170 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:36:04 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:36:00 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111648070.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111648070.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1628097.7iaWAo05dh"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111836.02972.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:36:17 -0000 --nextPart1628097.7iaWAo05dh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 17:53, Libby Miller wrote: > which applications export data as rrules? and is it mostly timezone > information? It looks from our smallish dataset[1] that evolution does > export them.=20 KOrganizer and Kontact use rrule for recurring events and recurring to-dos.= =20 Cheers, Reinhold --nextPart1628097.7iaWAo05dh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDO0CTqjEwhXvPN0RAhQIAJ0cp6GFsO5mMseiiKJPbjetVy4EvACgvKn2 z5HX00ZzXhUWVP5uR09WYEQ= =fmFc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1628097.7iaWAo05dh-- X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHZvaZ002301 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:35:58 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED94A2D8565 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.126] (gw.skyrix.com [213.211.192.97]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9414C2D8559 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:22 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <420CE88A.403@ScheduleWorld.com> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> <420CE88A.403@ScheduleWorld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <c2eab631fdd643ea0d1f198119d33268@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:52 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:36:08 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 18:16, Mark Swanson wrote: > Well, ScheduleWorld 100% implements RRULEs. The GUI doesn't reflect > this because then folks could create RRULEs that wouldn't interoperate > with a few other products. Isn't that a contradiction? What good is an rrule if you can't display it? Of course I believe you that you can parse the iCalendar structure of the rrule, but what good is the data if the user can't view/edit it? Unless I'm missing something, not reflecting the rrule in the GUI is exactly the same like not supporting it. And reflecting _all_ the specified rrules in iCalendar should be quite difficult (if not impossible if you still want to have good usability ;-). > My current impression is that RRULEs are fairly well supported - even > by lesser known products like phpICalendar. My impression is that a lot of clients use a similiar subset of the specified rrules and that this subset works pretty well. But it might be wrong. Also most of the newer clients are specifically build around iCalendar which obviously improves on that too. (eg comparing interoperability between Sunbird and Kontact should be done, but isn't particulary interesting since both use some derivate of iCalendar. One would need to compare interoperability between eg Outlook and Sunbird or Notes and Kontact). Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHUTaa001844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:30:30 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BHURSB026054 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:30:28 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:30:25 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1769327.rekaXgov53"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111830.27125.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:30:41 -0000 --nextPart1769327.rekaXgov53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 18:04, Helge Hess wrote: > On Feb 11, 2005, at 17:33, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > > Helge Hess wrote: > >> If you have some standard you basically always loose information > >> since you need to find a viable common denominator. I would argue to the contrary. What I like so much about iCalendar is that = it=20 defines a way to do almost anything you might ever want to do. So when you= =20 implement a new feature in your calendar application, most of the time,=20 iCalendar already gives you a format how to store this feature in an=20 iCalendar object (for drag'n'drop, invitations, even storing). So you don't= =20 have to cook your own soup, but instead can use a standard which other=20 clients (that implement a similar feature) can also understand. I think it basically boils down to the two views of standards: 1) A standard should describe what every application MUST implement. If an= =20 application wants to do something more, it's on its own. ("lowest common=20 denominator") 2) A standard gives a suggestion how an application might implement any (ev= en=20 very exotic) feature. No application will ever implement full support for=20 every little detail of such a standard, but if it implements one feature, i= t=20 can be sure that any other application that implements a similar feature wi= ll=20 be able to reuse the data. it seems most people here think that a standard is just for those parts tha= t=20 every application must implement (i.e. every detail of a standard needs to = be=20 supported by an application).=20 However, what I like so much about iCalendar is that it gives you a=20 standardized way for lots of advanced features.=20 > You have the assumption that fixing the clients is an easy and viable > task. I had the impression that currently rrules can represent every > recurrence model which was supported by the initial protocol creators. I think it was meant to be able to describe every possible combination one= =20 might ever need. Anything else wouldn't make sense, because again it would= =20 lead to fragmentation, since one would need to invent a new solution if an= =20 application has needs that are not covered by a limited standard. And then= =20 one can be sure that interoperaility between two applications that both=20 support such an advanced feature will never work. > This in turn makes it very complex and forces everyone to implement all > the rrules of the others (and in practice nobody does that which makes > rrules not interoperable). > But people suggested that I might be wrong on how compliant current > clients are. Do Outlook, Kontact, Evolution, Mozilla, iCal.app really > support 100% of the currently specified iCalendar rrules?=20 No, at least korganizer / kontact doesn't. AFAICR, BYSETPOS is not correctl= y=20 handled. The GUI of korganizer or kontact might not suggest it, but our=20 libkcal library does in fact support almost the whole specification. Cheers, Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart1769327.rekaXgov53 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDOuzTqjEwhXvPN0RAowVAJ0SkjWo8M3AZFLm54AsGzlw41cs5ACeLEI5 4ZmIecBq9eH4qBJba7FKgqk= =a3Iq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1769327.rekaXgov53-- X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHS9aa001563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:28:10 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BHS7On026050 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:08 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:05 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1872795.3LzHbjQjSx"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111828.07111.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:28:21 -0000 --nextPart1872795.3LzHbjQjSx Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 11 February 2005 18:04, Helge Hess wrote: > > imo extensions also are the wrong solution. If i want to publish my > > calendar, i can't use the extensions, because i don't know what other > > clients will read the file. > > Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If > the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, > if not, he will fall back to the base spec. Yes, exactly. And that is the problem here. If you move recurrence information to the extension and you use a recurrenc= e,=20 any client which does not understand that recurrence extension will just sh= ow=20 the very first occurrence but none of the other occurrences.=20 So, to be sure that the receiving client really shows all occurrences one=20 can't use the recurrence extension at all. Doesn't make too much sense, doe= s=20 it? Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart1872795.3LzHbjQjSx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDOsnTqjEwhXvPN0RArXWAKDea8mi3zs/CJON44GnytqDv1Yz1QCgnl7B sElm3sUuCp2JpmH5r0+YgT8= =HjBo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1872795.3LzHbjQjSx-- X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BHQGaa001339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:26:18 -0800 Received: from curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at (reinhold@curie.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.116]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j1BHQDR2025998 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:26:15 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:26:09 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> In-Reply-To: <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart8735903.1u7LG0RHgG"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502111826.13181.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.629 () URIBL_SBL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:26:31 -0000 --nextPart8735903.1u7LG0RHgG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday 10 February 2005 23:03, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: > > I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, > > given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and > > complexity of time zones as well. > > I think removing rrules would be a real bad idea. Sure, handing out a > list of occurrences will show up the same way on a calendar. But you > lost information. The app won't know anymore that it is an event that > happens every monday. It just has a list of dates. It can't show the UI > anymore, so the user can't change it to every tuesday. The data is gone. I can only second that. In particular, rfc 2445 is also meant as the format= =20 e.g. for drag'n'dropping of events from one application to another. If you= =20 expand the recurrence rule before dragging, the second application will not= =20 get that information. Currently, it's possible to take an event from KOrganizer / Kontact, drag i= t=20 to evolution and the event will be exactly the same as it was in KOrganizer. I think iCalendar should be a format that allows to exchange all available= =20 information without any data loss. Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.a= t/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer --nextPart8735903.1u7LG0RHgG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCDOq1TqjEwhXvPN0RAgkTAJ9rcdkpXU5ROLyn4/duIwPNT5onZwCgkakC XUVR40wlhonlzrg9WUGGjl8= =746G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart8735903.1u7LG0RHgG-- X-Envelope-From: mark@ScheduleWorld.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from ns1.webservicesolutions.com (ns1.webservicesolutions.com [69.44.62.208]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j1BHGvaZ000413 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:16:57 -0800 Received: from 10.0.2.4 ([10.0.2.4]) by ns1.webservicesolutions.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.2.1-RC1) with SMTP ID 662; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:16:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420CE88A.403@ScheduleWorld.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:16:58 -0500 From: Mark Swanson <mark@ScheduleWorld.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:06 -0000 Helge Hess wrote: > > But people suggested that I might be wrong on how compliant current > clients are. Do Outlook, Kontact, Evolution, Mozilla, iCal.app really > support 100% of the currently specified iCalendar rrules? I would be > surprised, but pleased to hear some actual investigation on that. Well, ScheduleWorld 100% implements RRULEs. The GUI doesn't reflect this because then folks could create RRULEs that wouldn't interoperate with a few other products. I have done a fair bit of RRULE interop testing over the years and some products have always been quite good and others have become good only recently. My current impression is that RRULEs are fairly well supported - even by lesser known products like phpICalendar. Cheers. -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb X-Envelope-From: mark@ScheduleWorld.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from ns1.webservicesolutions.com (ns1.webservicesolutions.com [69.44.62.208]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j1BH7paZ030667 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:07:52 -0800 Received: from 10.0.2.4 ([10.0.2.4]) by ns1.webservicesolutions.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.2.1-RC1) with SMTP ID 437 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:07:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420CE668.3050601@ScheduleWorld.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:07:52 -0500 From: Mark Swanson <mark@ScheduleWorld.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111648070.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111648070.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:07:59 -0000 Libby Miller wrote: > > which applications export data as rrules? and is it mostly timezone > information? It looks from our smallish dataset[1] that evolution does > export them. Does anyone have any bigger/better sets of example outputs? I thought all applications exported data as RRULEs. Are there any existing applications that don't? -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BH5waa030231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:05:59 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ninevah.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1BGvP6E009158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:57:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:05:54 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl>, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Message-ID: <76C6A567A939E6CA5B306FD2@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a4 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:06:05 -0000 Hi Michiel, --On February 11, 2005 5:44:52 PM +0100 Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> wrote: > There is some other problem i tought of: It isn't uncommon for users to > create a recurring event without an end time, because it is not known at > the time of creating. So for the time being, it will recur forever. What > should the application do when exchanging that event as a list of rdates? > It must come up with an arbitrary end date. The recipient might think of > that as the real date. Not only did you loose the original information, > you added wrong new information. > Note that you almost always have to truncate an unbounded recurrence when doing iTIP because you cannot do conflict resolution for an unbounded recurrence. Indeed iTIP specifies a request-status code that CUAs can use in a REPLY to indicate that a recurring event was scheduled, but only over a finite set of recurrences (i.e. unbounded set is truncated for scheduling purposes). Its worth noting two different scenarios for unbounded recurrences: 1) Those that specify a date only - not time (i.e. all day events such as anniversaries, holidays etc). These are usually not a problem for iTIP because in general you are probably not worried about conflicts (e.g. it doesn't matter that my birthday falls on a national holiday or the day of the company outing etc). 2) Those that include a time. These are the ones that present real difficulties because of the need to do detailed conflict resolution. One option we may want to consider is to only allow unbounded recurrences for date-only items. Recurring events with times then have to be bounded, using either UNTIL or COUNT in an RRULE or a set of RDATEs. I think this is reasonable because as a real world observation, I believe that timed recurring events really are bounded in some fashion. -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BH46aZ030033 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:04:06 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA372CC933 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:03:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.126] (gw.skyrix.com [213.211.192.97]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F3C2D841A for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:03:30 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <f3cf8aa8dff5a41d8f5f3cfbc98d575a@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:04:00 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:04:17 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 17:33, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Helge Hess wrote: >> If you have some standard you basically always loose information >> since you need to find a viable common denominator. > I think that is the wrong approach. Its not an approach at all, its just a statement/fact. Most clients/servers use iCalendar for interoperability, not for their implementation (and can therefore only expose iCal features, not their full functionality). This is a bit different for most OpenSource clients, which also use iCalendar for storing the information. > Fix the clients. > Or come up with something completly new, that new clients can > implement correctly. But that will take even longer. You have the assumption that fixing the clients is an easy and viable task. I had the impression that currently rrules can represent every recurrence model which was supported by the initial protocol creators. This in turn makes it very complex and forces everyone to implement all the rrules of the others (and in practice nobody does that which makes rrules not interoperable). But people suggested that I might be wrong on how compliant current clients are. Do Outlook, Kontact, Evolution, Mozilla, iCal.app really support 100% of the currently specified iCalendar rrules? I would be surprised, but pleased to hear some actual investigation on that. > imo extensions also are the wrong solution. If i want to publish my > calendar, i can't use the extensions, because i don't know what other > clients will read the file. Thats a rather weird statement. Why can't you use the extensions? If the "other" client supports them, he will have additional information, if not, he will fall back to the base spec. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from dirg.bris.ac.uk (dirg.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.102]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BGrgaZ027014 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:53:43 -0800 Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.16.62]) by dirg.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1Cze2v-00068j-RQ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:36 +0000 Received: from ecemm (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1Cze2t-0006sA-HG; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:32 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> X-X-Sender: ecemm@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? In-Reply-To: <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0502111648070.29974@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: Libby Miller <Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk> X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Spam-Level: -- X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:55 -0000 On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Tim Hare wrote: >> In a particular UI implementation, you _can_ use recurrence rules supported >> by that product - all we are proposing is that they be _exchanged_ as a >> list of RDATES, or even more simply as a set of VEVENTS. > > So the recipient of the exchange can't change (or even look at) the > recurrence information. > >> The calendar store(s) of the recipient(s) could, I suppose, use the UID on >> the VEVENTs to try to determine a recurrence rule according to its own >> methods > > That will give even more bugs. Trying to be smart based on a list of dates. > > There is some other problem i tought of: It isn't uncommon for users to > create a recurring event without an end time, because it is not known at the > time of creating. So for the time being, it will recur forever. What should > the application do when exchanging that event as a list of rdates? It must > come up with an arbitrary end date. The recipient might think of that as the > real date. Not only did you loose the original information, you added wrong > new information. which applications export data as rrules? and is it mostly timezone information? It looks from our smallish dataset[1] that evolution does export them. Does anyone have any bigger/better sets of example outputs? cheers, Libby [1] http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/ > > Michiel > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify > X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.35]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BGiuaZ025215 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:44:57 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BGirDL046100; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:44:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420CE104.2060804@exedo.nl> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:44:52 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:45:01 -0000 Tim Hare wrote: > In a particular UI implementation, you _can_ use recurrence rules > supported by that product - all we are proposing is that they be > _exchanged_ as a list of RDATES, or even more simply as a set of > VEVENTS. So the recipient of the exchange can't change (or even look at) the recurrence information. > The calendar store(s) of the > recipient(s) could, I suppose, use the UID on the VEVENTs to try to > determine a recurrence rule according to its own methods That will give even more bugs. Trying to be smart based on a list of dates. There is some other problem i tought of: It isn't uncommon for users to create a recurring event without an end time, because it is not known at the time of creating. So for the time being, it will recur forever. What should the application do when exchanging that event as a list of rdates? It must come up with an arbitrary end date. The recipient might think of that as the real date. Not only did you loose the original information, you added wrong new information. Michiel X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BGXtaZ023062 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:33:56 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BGXjKO022813 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:33:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420CDE68.5090801@exedo.nl> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:33:44 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> In-Reply-To: <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:34:06 -0000 Helge Hess wrote: > If you have some standard you basically always loose information since > you need to find a viable common denominator. > I think that is the wrong approach. Looking at bugs/problems in current implementations, and removing that from the spec. You need to define what you want to approach with the spec, and make sure you can reach that. Not having recurrence rules just because some clients have problems with them isn't the right way imo. > So what is your _solution_ to this? Pointing out the flaws is > insufficient, its proven that rrules are not interoperable since > everyone does rrules in a different way and no one does support them > fully?! Fix the clients. Or come up with something completly new, that new clients can implement correctly. But that will take even longer. > For the _basic_ draft, IMHO timezones and rrules should be removed to > have something which can be widely supported by everyone. > Of course they should be supported in some extension. imo extensions also are the wrong solution. If i want to publish my calendar, i can't use the extensions, because i don't know what other clients will read the file. So in reality, you can never use extensions. (can you imagine a client asking the user: what application is the recipient of this event using?) Michiel X-Envelope-From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1BFheaZ014860; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:43:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: <EFE502E3633330F5451DE5CF@ninevah.local> To: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: IBM Lotus Notes Build V70_01312005NP January 31, 2005 Message-ID: <OFE138CEBF.CE363C1A-ON85256FA5.0056595A-85256FA5.0056369C@notesdev.ibm.com> From: Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:43:31 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Build V70_M4_12222004 Beta 3|December 22, 2004) at 02/11/2005 10:39:28 AM, Serialize complete at 02/11/2005 10:39:28 AM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.609 () DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:43:52 -0000 that is my take on rrule intop as well. Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/10/2005 08:47 PM To Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Hi Helge, --On February 11, 2005 1:27:34 AM +0100 Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> wrote: > So what is your _solution_ to this? Pointing out the flaws is > insufficient, its proven that rrules are not interoperable since everyone > does rrules in a different way and no one does support them fully?! OK - so what exactly is wrong with RRULEs in and of themselves? My reading of the current interoperability state is that most products handle RRULE generation/expansion correctly. The real problem is not the RRULEs per se, but rather then exceptions to recurrences and how to manage rescheduling of such exceptions via iTIP. Exceptions and rescheduling will be a problem whether we have RRULEs or just RDATEs. It looks like that ought to be easier with RDATEs only, but I'm not sure its all that much easier. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1B9NqaZ009092 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:52 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:42 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:32 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:42 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025099FE@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Thread-Index: AcUP91aL+sKNeB2GR6eXhgv8OZUreAAIr6Tg From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Tim Hare" <TimHare@comcast.net>, "Michiel van Leeuwen" <mvl@exedo.nl>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2005 09:23:35.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[5CC2D140:01C5101B] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1B9NqaZ009092 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:24:00 -0000 What you are suggesting is that representing a simple example like "once a week every Wednesday" would be a list of individual vevents (perhaps with exceptions) and that the recipient somehow reverse engineer that collection into the original rule? This is more than separating the data from the UI, it's obscuring it completely. This puts a very heavy burden on clients who don't want to represent recurrences like a huge list of events. This would limit the UI vendor fairly severely, it seems. cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Tim Hare Sent: Thursday.10.February.2005 21.02 To: Michiel van Leeuwen; ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? In a particular UI implementation, you _can_ use recurrence rules supported by that product - all we are proposing is that they be _exchanged_ as a list of RDATES, or even more simply as a set of VEVENTS. The calendar store of the originator of the recurring-event item can store it in the compact manner with recurrence rules stored according to what it supports. The calendar store(s) of the recipient(s) could, I suppose, use the UID on the VEVENTs to try to determine a recurrence rule according to its own methods (the simplest being to make it one item with a list of dates, probably). But in either case, the user hasn't lost the ability to simply put in recurring items. The UI, in other words, is separate from the data. Tim At 05:03 PM 2/10/05, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: >Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: >>I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, >>and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance >>and complexity of time zones as well. > >I think removing rrules would be a real bad idea. Sure, handing out a >list of occurrences will show up the same way on a calendar. But you >lost information. The app won't know anymore that it is an event that >happens every monday. It just has a list of dates. It can't show the UI >anymore, so the user can't change it to every tuesday. The data is gone. > > >Michiel >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-calsify mailing list >Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org >http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: TimHare@comcast.net X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1B53qaZ029402 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:03:52 -0800 Received: from computer.comcast.net (pcp0011451694pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[69.244.223.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005021105034401300md0l7e>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:03:44 +0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050210235610.02d15020@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:02:05 -0500 To: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? In-Reply-To: <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 1.75 (*) DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:03:57 -0000 In a particular UI implementation, you _can_ use recurrence rules supported by that product - all we are proposing is that they be _exchanged_ as a list of RDATES, or even more simply as a set of VEVENTS. The calendar store of the originator of the recurring-event item can store it in the compact manner with recurrence rules stored according to what it supports. The calendar store(s) of the recipient(s) could, I suppose, use the UID on the VEVENTs to try to determine a recurrence rule according to its own methods (the simplest being to make it one item with a list of dates, probably). But in either case, the user hasn't lost the ability to simply put in recurring items. The UI, in other words, is separate from the data. Tim At 05:03 PM 2/10/05, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: >Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: >>I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, >>given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and >>complexity of time zones as well. > >I think removing rrules would be a real bad idea. Sure, handing out a list >of occurrences will show up the same way on a calendar. But you lost >information. The app won't know anymore that it is an event that happens >every monday. It just has a list of dates. It can't show the UI anymore, >so the user can't change it to every tuesday. The data is gone. > > >Michiel >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-calsify mailing list >Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org >http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: daboo@isamet.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [63.163.82.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1B1lsaa009355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:47:56 -0800 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-141-151-189-161.pitt.east.verizon.net [141.151.189.161]) (authenticated bits=0) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1B1dP6E022112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:39:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:47:49 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> To: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Message-ID: <EFE502E3633330F5451DE5CF@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a4 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:48:05 -0000 Hi Helge, --On February 11, 2005 1:27:34 AM +0100 Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> wrote: > So what is your _solution_ to this? Pointing out the flaws is > insufficient, its proven that rrules are not interoperable since everyone > does rrules in a different way and no one does support them fully?! OK - so what exactly is wrong with RRULEs in and of themselves? My reading of the current interoperability state is that most products handle RRULE generation/expansion correctly. The real problem is not the RRULEs per se, but rather then exceptions to recurrences and how to manage rescheduling of such exceptions via iTIP. Exceptions and rescheduling will be a problem whether we have RRULEs or just RDATEs. It looks like that ought to be easier with RDATEs only, but I'm not sure its all that much easier. -- Cyrus Daboo X-Envelope-From: helge.hess@opengroupware.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.mdlink.net (medusa.mdlink.de [213.211.192.34]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1B0ReaZ003357 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:27:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09EE2D7EED for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:27:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.233] (port-ip-213-211-241-130.reverse.mdcc-fun.de [213.211.241.130]) by mail.mdlink.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9145C2D4450 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:27:00 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7fea84c4888258748c0ce6e73e7aa2ae@opengroupware.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Helge Hess <helge.hess@opengroupware.org> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:27:34 +0100 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:28:04 -0000 On 10. Feb 2005, at 23:03 Uhr, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote: > Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: >> I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, >> and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance >> and complexity of time zones as well. > I think removing rrules would be a real bad idea. Sure, handing out a > list of occurrences will show up the same way on a calendar. But you > lost information. The app won't know anymore that it is an event that > happens every monday. It just has a list of dates. It can't show the > UI anymore, so the user can't change it to every tuesday. The data is > gone. If you have some standard you basically always loose information since you need to find a viable common denominator. So what is your _solution_ to this? Pointing out the flaws is insufficient, its proven that rrules are not interoperable since everyone does rrules in a different way and no one does support them fully?! For the _basic_ draft, IMHO timezones and rrules should be removed to have something which can be widely supported by everyone. Of course they should be supported in some extension. Greets, Helge -- http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ OpenGroupware.org X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AN0YaZ029450; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:00:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <420BBDBB.2090807@ScheduleWorld.com> To: Mark Swanson <mark@scheduleworld.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OFAF672E0D.C5517750-ON85256FA4.007E5F59-85256FA4.007E635A@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:00:31 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/10/2005 06:00:35 PM, Serialize complete at 02/10/2005 06:00:35 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.265 () HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:00:39 -0000 I responded before but want to make sure my count is in. +2 for Cameron ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 Mark Swanson <mark@scheduleworld.com> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/10/2005 03:02 PM To ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org cc Subject Re: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? +1 for Cameron's thoughts. -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AMxXaZ029358; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:59:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> To: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.2 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OF36A37AF9.A0A779E9-ON85256FA4.007DDCD3-85256FA4.007E4B70@egenconsulting.com> From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:59:30 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.5.2|June 01, 2004) at 02/10/2005 05:59:34 PM, Serialize complete at 02/10/2005 05:59:34 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Spam-Score: 0.474 () HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:59:42 -0000 Hi Cameron. I agree as well. However, one of the biggest problems we see are different implementations of the standards out there. One product uses the very first implementation of vcalendar or icalendar and others use the later versions. So, even within the standards that are out there, we have collisions. That's one of the reasons I am so excited about the Min-IOP Technical Steering committee work that's coming out of the Calconnect consortium. If we can identify what is the lowest common denominator where the majority of the calendaring applications work today - we have our ical-lite. Then, we can carve away the pieces that dont' work (timezones and recurrence rules - although some things do indeed function - just not all) and make them either ical-extensions, or whatever, who cares. But getting something we know will work with Outlook, Lotus Notes, Mozilla, Yahoo, Isamet, Oracle, whatever, makes me, a calendaring user from way back, pretty excited. As it does my clients as well. 8-) ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> Sent by: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org 02/10/2005 12:43 PM To "Nathaniel Borenstein" <nsb@guppylake.com>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> cc Subject RE: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? While I agree with you philosophically, I believe there is also a practical issue to consider: Any standard which has meaning must have some relevance to the working products that are in frequent or popular usage. If we were in a state where no product or vendor had yet released significant support of iCal, I would agree with you completely. However, there are products now shipping and becoming more commonplace that we must also consider. Apple's iCal (who came up with that original name?) product and their .mac service that hosts published calendars. Mozilla's product that reads and writes iCal format, and several others - some already out there, and some on the verge of releasing... There are other web services (I use the term loosely, not in the MS.NET sense) that have sprung up around iCal: icalx.com, icalshare.com, and others... A standard which these products and services do not use is (imho) not all that meaningful. To hit on some of your specific points: removing rrules would not affect the apps and services that use them currently. Frankly, I can't imagine removing support for rrules in our current product, or generating icals without them. It would mean more "lossy" conversions, not less. I can't imagine other vendors doing it either. Perhaps new systems could opt for the "simpler" rrule-less standard, but then they would be incompatible with the existing big dogs that use this technology. In some ways, we are dealing with the tyrrany of schema - you can't take it back, once it is commonly used. You can deprecate it, provide a better replacement, but it is VERY difficult to stop supporting it. I believe that to be successful, we must capture the state of the art that is happening today, perhaps with some tweaks to the more difficult aspects that thwart integration and interoperability. Radical simplification to the standard make it theoretically easier for entrance to the game, but I think the sweet spot here is to capture what's already being played, and then to move on from there. A Diet-iCal may very well be useful to embedded systems or small devices (maybe) in the future, but I don't see it as our most pressing objective, or our most promising one. Thoughts? cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel Borenstein Sent: Thursday.10.February.2005 08.29 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? Tim Hare said something in October that was so on target that I think it's worth reading again: > Maybe it's serendipity, but I was pointed to an old post at > http://www.shirky.com/writings/evolve.html about evolvable systems as > it relates to the Web; and it kind of struck a chord about what we're > doing here. > > Let's get out an iCal-Basic that everyone can create easily from what > they've got now, and everyone can read in with what they've got now. > Even if it means we're passing back-and-forth larger sets of data to > describe repeating appointments, even if it means certain appointments > that cross timezones or daylight-savings-time changes have problems. > The thing is, if we can get out something that works, we can then > evolve it to work better. We have got to find the simplest common > denominator that works, call that iCal-Basic, and release it. That's > the four-footed fish crawling up on the shore... we'll get to mammals > later. I believe this post goes to the heart of everything that is most broken about iCal, and that we must take it very seriously if we're to have any hope of fixing this mess. I will therefore reiterate yet again my past observations about the potential for radical simplification, simply because no one has yet convinced me that what I advocate would be an *over* simplification. I believe that we should grab for any simplification that won't demonstrably make the standard inadequate for its primary purposes, which I regard to be personal and interpersonal event scheduling. I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and complexity of time zones as well. First of all, let's consider carefully what will happen if we choose to go down the road, as many are proposing, of making RRULES an optional part of the specification. In that world, the composer of an email invitation to a repeating meeting won't be able to know (for reasons touched on in my companion post, "Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful") whether or not the recipient(s) will understand RRULES. Thus, such a composer will inevitably end up sending repeating meeting invitations as multipart/alternatives, containing both a "set" and a "rule" description of the repeating meeting. In that case, I would argue that the RRULES can be dispensed with entirely as redundant. Eliminating RRULES implies, in turn, that we can use UTC for nearly everything, so that the only time zone translation that needs to be done is at the user level and involves the relatively straightforward translation between UTC and the user's own time zone. Together, this pair of changes would be an enormous simplification of a protocol that I believe is choking under its own complexity. Even the discussion on this list about how to simplify RRULES is, I fear, too complex for many potential implementors to understand, and thus will inevitably lead to "misinterpretations." (I put the word in quotes because I believe that if there is any way to misinterpret a standard, it is the spec that is at fault, not the implementor. Long experience has taught that if there is more than one way to interpret an RFC, it will be interpreted in more than one way by software that claims to be conformant.) If, as I am claiming, it is *possible* to do everything without RRULES, and that RRULES are just a bandwith-and-space-saving-convenience for repeat meetings that have LOTS of repeats (and, of course, a truly vital feature for any imaginary meetings that continue infinitely, unlike their attendees), then we should try to build a complete version without RRULES first, and only try to add on the efficiency/convenience of RRULES later, if at all. Worrying about the cost/efficiency of representing a recurring meeting, in a world full of BitTorrent and webcams, strikes me as rather myopic. If we can live with base64, we can live with this. I know that several of you are tired of hearing this argument from me. I encourage you to shut me up by convincing me that it is NOT possible to define a completely adequate version of iCal that doesn't have any recurrence rules. But if it is possible, I think it is what we should do. -- Nathaniel _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: mvl@exedo.nl X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.24]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AM32aZ022992 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:03 -0800 Received: from [192.168.100.2] (lions.xs4all.nl [213.84.175.238]) by smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1AM32tn068295 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:03:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mvl@exedo.nl) Message-ID: <420BDA15.6060201@exedo.nl> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:03:01 +0100 From: Michiel van Leeuwen <mvl@exedo.nl> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050129 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> In-Reply-To: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:03:35 -0800 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:03:14 -0000 Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: > I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, > given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and > complexity of time zones as well. I think removing rrules would be a real bad idea. Sure, handing out a list of occurrences will show up the same way on a calendar. But you lost information. The app won't know anymore that it is an event that happens every monday. It just has a list of dates. It can't show the UI anymore, so the user can't change it to every tuesday. The data is gone. Michiel X-Envelope-From: mark@ScheduleWorld.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from ns1.webservicesolutions.com (ns1.webservicesolutions.com [69.44.62.208]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j1AK22aZ009241 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:02:02 -0800 Received: from 10.0.2.4 ([10.0.2.4]) by ns1.webservicesolutions.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.2.1-RC1) with SMTP ID 671 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:02:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420BBDBB.2090807@ScheduleWorld.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:02:03 -0500 From: Mark Swanson <mark@ScheduleWorld.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:02:25 -0000 +1 for Cameron's thoughts. -- Free replacement for Exchange and Outlook (Contacts and Calendar) http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ WAP: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/WAPToday?id=4000&tz=EST WebDAV: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/webDAVDir/4000.ics VFREEBUSY: http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/sw/freebusy/4000.ifb X-Envelope-From: tantek@technorati.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.technorati.com (mail.technorati.com [209.237.227.245]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AJO0aa004004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:24:00 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.121] (m206-184.dsl.tsoft.com [198.144.206.184]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.technorati.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3673921281A; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:32:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4c59242207e2d791412acf96af108748@technorati.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tantek_=C7elik?= <tantek@technorati.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:23:48 -0800 To: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:24:27 -0000 +1 on what Cameron Stillion wrote. If the choice is between defining iCal as: 1. maximum interoperability profile of existing major/popular implementations 2. minimum possible useful profile (radical simplification) From following all the discussions in this thread, and considering practical matters of current implementations and market forces (e.g. if current implementations interoperably output RRULES, then any new implementation will be forced by market forces and competitive pressure to accept and support RRULES), 1. seems like the only realistic choice. Tantek On Feb 10, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Cameron Stillion wrote: > > While I agree with you philosophically, I believe there is also a > practical issue to consider: Any standard which has meaning must have > some relevance to the working products that are in frequent or popular > usage. If we were in a state where no product or vendor had yet > released significant support of iCal, I would agree with you > completely. > However, there are products now shipping and becoming more commonplace > that we must also consider. Apple's iCal (who came up with that > original name?) product and their .mac service that hosts published > calendars. Mozilla's product that reads and writes iCal format, and > several others - some already out there, and some on the verge of > releasing... There are other web services (I use the term loosely, not > in the MS.NET sense) that have sprung up around iCal: icalx.com, > icalshare.com, and others... A standard which these products and > services do not use is (imho) not all that meaningful. > > To hit on some of your specific points: removing rrules would not > affect > the apps and services that use them currently. Frankly, I can't > imagine > removing support for rrules in our current product, or generating icals > without them. It would mean more "lossy" conversions, not less. I > can't imagine other vendors doing it either. Perhaps new systems could > opt for the "simpler" rrule-less standard, but then they would be > incompatible with the existing big dogs that use this technology. In > some ways, we are dealing with the tyrrany of schema - you can't take > it > back, once it is commonly used. You can deprecate it, provide a better > replacement, but it is VERY difficult to stop supporting it. > > I believe that to be successful, we must capture the state of the art > that is happening today, perhaps with some tweaks to the more difficult > aspects that thwart integration and interoperability. Radical > simplification to the standard make it theoretically easier for > entrance > to the game, but I think the sweet spot here is to capture what's > already being played, and then to move on from there. A Diet-iCal may > very well be useful to embedded systems or small devices (maybe) in the > future, but I don't see it as our most pressing objective, or our most > promising one. > > Thoughts? > > cameron > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org > [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel > Borenstein > Sent: Thursday.10.February.2005 08.29 > To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > Subject: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? > > Tim Hare said something in October that was so on target that I think > it's worth reading again: > >> Maybe it's serendipity, but I was pointed to an old post at >> http://www.shirky.com/writings/evolve.html about evolvable systems as >> it relates to the Web; and it kind of struck a chord about what we're >> doing here. >> >> Let's get out an iCal-Basic that everyone can create easily from what >> they've got now, and everyone can read in with what they've got now. >> Even if it means we're passing back-and-forth larger sets of data to >> describe repeating appointments, even if it means certain appointments > >> that cross timezones or daylight-savings-time changes have problems. >> The thing is, if we can get out something that works, we can then >> evolve it to work better. We have got to find the simplest common >> denominator that works, call that iCal-Basic, and release it. That's >> the four-footed fish crawling up on the shore... we'll get to mammals >> later. > > I believe this post goes to the heart of everything that is most broken > about iCal, and that we must take it very seriously if we're to have > any > hope of fixing this mess. I will therefore reiterate yet again my past > observations about the potential for radical simplification, simply > because no one has yet convinced me that what I advocate would be an > *over* simplification. I believe that we should grab for any > simplification that won't demonstrably make the standard inadequate for > its primary purposes, which I regard to be personal and interpersonal > event scheduling. > > I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, > given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and > complexity of time zones as well. > > First of all, let's consider carefully what will happen if we choose to > go down the road, as many are proposing, of making RRULES an optional > part of the specification. In that world, the composer of an email > invitation to a repeating meeting won't be able to know (for reasons > touched on in my companion post, "Receiver Capability Description > Considered Harmful") whether or not the recipient(s) will understand > RRULES. Thus, such a composer will inevitably end up sending repeating > meeting invitations as multipart/alternatives, containing both a "set" > and a "rule" description of the repeating meeting. In that case, I > would argue that the RRULES can be dispensed with entirely as > redundant. > > Eliminating RRULES implies, in turn, that we can use UTC for nearly > everything, so that the only time zone translation that needs to be > done > is at the user level and involves the relatively straightforward > translation between UTC and the user's own time zone. Together, this > pair of changes would be an enormous simplification of a protocol that > I > believe is choking under its own complexity. Even the discussion on > this list about how to simplify RRULES is, I fear, too complex for many > potential implementors to understand, and thus will inevitably lead to > "misinterpretations." (I put the word in quotes because I believe that > if there is any way to misinterpret a standard, it is the spec that is > at fault, not the implementor. Long experience has taught that if > there is more than one way to interpret an RFC, it will be interpreted > in more than one way by software that claims to be conformant.) > > If, as I am claiming, it is *possible* to do everything without RRULES, > and that RRULES are just a bandwith-and-space-saving-convenience for > repeat meetings that have LOTS of repeats (and, of course, a truly > vital > feature for any imaginary meetings that continue infinitely, unlike > their attendees), then we should try to build a complete version > without > RRULES first, and only try to add on the efficiency/convenience of > RRULES later, if at all. Worrying about the cost/efficiency of > representing a recurring meeting, in a world full of BitTorrent and > webcams, strikes me as rather myopic. If we can live with base64, we > can live with this. > > I know that several of you are tired of hearing this argument from me. > I encourage you to shut me up by convincing me that it is NOT possible > to define a completely adequate version of iCal that doesn't have any > recurrence rules. But if it is possible, I think it is what we should > do. -- Nathaniel > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify > X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AJCaaZ002905 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:12:37 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:12:28 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:11:32 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:08:02 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:07:58 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C3315370250943F@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? Thread-Index: AcUPmWa2CYoIZznnTlmrYXsDXvykIwACQomg From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Peter Saint-Andre" <stpeter@jabber.org>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2005 19:08:02.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7D9D3B0:01C50FA3] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1AJCaaZ002905 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:12:37 -0000 Saint Peter, With all due respect, I believe we can too. But who will remove this functionality from their parsers? Who will degrade their iCal generators to begin unrolling recurrences? I don't see it happening for this generation. A new standard that includes less maybe - just like a new standard that includes more (as some have suggested we pursue) - would be a viable alternative to newcomers, assuming it provided 'enough' functionality for their purpose. "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." H. L. Mencken /cds -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:37 AM To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? In article <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com>, Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> wrote: > I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, > and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance > and complexity of time zones as well. +1 "Simplify, simplify, simplify." -- Henry David Thoreau /psa _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: gic-ietf-calsify@gmane.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AHr0aa025016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:53:02 -0800 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1CzIGh-0000zc-Be for ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:38:20 +0100 Received: from dialup-4.227.255.21.dial1.denver1.level3.net ([4.227.255.21]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:38:19 +0100 Received: from stpeter by dialup-4.227.255.21.dial1.denver1.level3.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:38:19 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@jabber.org> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:37:02 -0700 Organization: Jabber Software Foundation Lines: 12 Message-ID: <stpeter-F9B3B8.10370210022005@sea.gmane.org> References: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-4.227.255.21.dial1.denver1.level3.net User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org> X-Gmane-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Gmane-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Gmane-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-MailScanner-From: gic-ietf-calsify@m.gmane.org X-MailScanner-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:53:03 -0000 In article <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com>, Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> wrote: > I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, > given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and > complexity of time zones as well. +1 "Simplify, simplify, simplify." -- Henry David Thoreau /psa X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AHi4aZ023725 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:44:09 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:56 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:54 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:50 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:49 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092FF@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? Thread-Index: AcUPjgg/KtfQiPnOSc2CJ7t2KBRawAAB1+tA From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Nathaniel Borenstein" <nsb@guppylake.com>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2005 17:43:50.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[149DF8F0:01C50F98] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1AHi4aZ023725 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:44:12 -0000 While I agree with you philosophically, I believe there is also a practical issue to consider: Any standard which has meaning must have some relevance to the working products that are in frequent or popular usage. If we were in a state where no product or vendor had yet released significant support of iCal, I would agree with you completely. However, there are products now shipping and becoming more commonplace that we must also consider. Apple's iCal (who came up with that original name?) product and their .mac service that hosts published calendars. Mozilla's product that reads and writes iCal format, and several others - some already out there, and some on the verge of releasing... There are other web services (I use the term loosely, not in the MS.NET sense) that have sprung up around iCal: icalx.com, icalshare.com, and others... A standard which these products and services do not use is (imho) not all that meaningful. To hit on some of your specific points: removing rrules would not affect the apps and services that use them currently. Frankly, I can't imagine removing support for rrules in our current product, or generating icals without them. It would mean more "lossy" conversions, not less. I can't imagine other vendors doing it either. Perhaps new systems could opt for the "simpler" rrule-less standard, but then they would be incompatible with the existing big dogs that use this technology. In some ways, we are dealing with the tyrrany of schema - you can't take it back, once it is commonly used. You can deprecate it, provide a better replacement, but it is VERY difficult to stop supporting it. I believe that to be successful, we must capture the state of the art that is happening today, perhaps with some tweaks to the more difficult aspects that thwart integration and interoperability. Radical simplification to the standard make it theoretically easier for entrance to the game, but I think the sweet spot here is to capture what's already being played, and then to move on from there. A Diet-iCal may very well be useful to embedded systems or small devices (maybe) in the future, but I don't see it as our most pressing objective, or our most promising one. Thoughts? cameron -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel Borenstein Sent: Thursday.10.February.2005 08.29 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? Tim Hare said something in October that was so on target that I think it's worth reading again: > Maybe it's serendipity, but I was pointed to an old post at > http://www.shirky.com/writings/evolve.html about evolvable systems as > it relates to the Web; and it kind of struck a chord about what we're > doing here. > > Let's get out an iCal-Basic that everyone can create easily from what > they've got now, and everyone can read in with what they've got now. > Even if it means we're passing back-and-forth larger sets of data to > describe repeating appointments, even if it means certain appointments > that cross timezones or daylight-savings-time changes have problems. > The thing is, if we can get out something that works, we can then > evolve it to work better. We have got to find the simplest common > denominator that works, call that iCal-Basic, and release it. That's > the four-footed fish crawling up on the shore... we'll get to mammals > later. I believe this post goes to the heart of everything that is most broken about iCal, and that we must take it very seriously if we're to have any hope of fixing this mess. I will therefore reiterate yet again my past observations about the potential for radical simplification, simply because no one has yet convinced me that what I advocate would be an *over* simplification. I believe that we should grab for any simplification that won't demonstrably make the standard inadequate for its primary purposes, which I regard to be personal and interpersonal event scheduling. I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and complexity of time zones as well. First of all, let's consider carefully what will happen if we choose to go down the road, as many are proposing, of making RRULES an optional part of the specification. In that world, the composer of an email invitation to a repeating meeting won't be able to know (for reasons touched on in my companion post, "Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful") whether or not the recipient(s) will understand RRULES. Thus, such a composer will inevitably end up sending repeating meeting invitations as multipart/alternatives, containing both a "set" and a "rule" description of the repeating meeting. In that case, I would argue that the RRULES can be dispensed with entirely as redundant. Eliminating RRULES implies, in turn, that we can use UTC for nearly everything, so that the only time zone translation that needs to be done is at the user level and involves the relatively straightforward translation between UTC and the user's own time zone. Together, this pair of changes would be an enormous simplification of a protocol that I believe is choking under its own complexity. Even the discussion on this list about how to simplify RRULES is, I fear, too complex for many potential implementors to understand, and thus will inevitably lead to "misinterpretations." (I put the word in quotes because I believe that if there is any way to misinterpret a standard, it is the spec that is at fault, not the implementor. Long experience has taught that if there is more than one way to interpret an RFC, it will be interpreted in more than one way by software that claims to be conformant.) If, as I am claiming, it is *possible* to do everything without RRULES, and that RRULES are just a bandwith-and-space-saving-convenience for repeat meetings that have LOTS of repeats (and, of course, a truly vital feature for any imaginary meetings that continue infinitely, unlike their attendees), then we should try to build a complete version without RRULES first, and only try to add on the efficiency/convenience of RRULES later, if at all. Worrying about the cost/efficiency of representing a recurring meeting, in a world full of BitTorrent and webcams, strikes me as rather myopic. If we can live with base64, we can live with this. I know that several of you are tired of hearing this argument from me. I encourage you to shut me up by convincing me that it is NOT possible to define a completely adequate version of iCal that doesn't have any recurrence rules. But if it is possible, I think it is what we should do. -- Nathaniel _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: camerost@exchange.microsoft.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.exchange.microsoft.com (mail.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.76.149]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AHJWaZ019216 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:19:32 -0800 Received: from df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:19:24 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.23) by df-edge-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.8.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.00218.8; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:19:24 -0800 Received: from df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.240]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:19:24 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Ietf-calsify] Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:19:23 -0800 Message-ID: <1198328AFDBF5841B27E40C40C331537025092C6@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ietf-calsify] Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful Thread-Index: AcUPjd5isUBmWJ4URWWz+WAT4XaTgQABcigA From: "Cameron Stillion" <camerost@exchange.microsoft.com> To: "Nathaniel Borenstein" <nsb@guppylake.com>, <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2005 17:19:24.0018 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA827520:01C50F94] X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by kahuna.osafoundation.org id j1AHJWaZ019216 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:19:33 -0000 I agree that this type of gleaning a remote participants capabilities is typically handled via alternatives, rather than handshake. Although, in the crypto case, you explicitly don't know a recipients capabilities for encryption until you receive a signed message containing their public keys (or some other delivery/publishing of capabilities in PKIX). This precedent is for a very good reason, arguably - that security depends on it. In the crypto case, non-repudiation (for example) is not an "alternative" but a requirement. I understand Nathaniel's concern, but I also see (first hand in some cases) how applications often use cues from their recipients messages to respond to them. The most basic form of this is replying to a message. Whether the reply uses plain text or rich text (HTML) is based solely on the sender's choice, and by implication, their capabilities. There are many other examples, but that is not to say that this is the best way to distribute or guess capabilities. camerost -----Original Message----- From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org [mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel Borenstein Sent: Thursday.10.February.2005 08.29 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful I'm somewhat concerned about any suggestion (below made by Doug, but he's by no means alone) that encourages the composer of an iTIP message to try to take into account the capabilities of the intended receiver(s): > 2) We add a property to all iTIP replies that indicate the supported > features of the > side that is replying. We name this new property EXTENSIONS. And > it will be > a muilti valued property that lists the RFC numbers of > extensions supported by the > sender of the object. This property will go at the same level as > VERSION. I am skeptical that we can ever make this sort of capabilities consideration work well in an email (imip) context. There's no precedent for requiring email composers to ascertain the recipient's capabilities before deciding on the format of the message they're sending, and I'd prefer not to make the calendaring work depend on such a disruptive change to the email model. Note that ESMTP is not a counterexample, because the only capabilities exchange happens synchronously at SMTP hops rather than when the message is being composed for eventual delivery to a (possibly offline) recipient. -- Nathaniel _______________________________________________ Ietf-calsify mailing list Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify X-Envelope-From: nsb@guppylake.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.optistreams.net (206-169-2-196.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.2.196]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AGTUaZ014150 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:29:30 -0800 Received: from [192.168.0.102] [68.42.70.186] by mail.optistreams.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.04) id A46CB0F30272; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:57:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <16702915057c533628f4ab2af67dccdc@guppylake.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:29:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] What's wrong with more radical simplification? X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:31 -0000 Tim Hare said something in October that was so on target that I think it's worth reading again: > Maybe it's serendipity, but I was pointed to an old post at > http://www.shirky.com/writings/evolve.html about evolvable systems as > it relates to the Web; and it kind of struck a chord about what we're > doing here. > > Let's get out an iCal-Basic that everyone can create easily from what > they've got now, and everyone can read in with what they've got now. > Even if it means we're passing back-and-forth larger sets of data to > describe repeating appointments, even if it means certain appointments > that cross timezones or daylight-savings-time changes have problems. > The thing is, if we can get out something that works, we can then > evolve it to work better. We have got to find the simplest common > denominator that works, call that iCal-Basic, and release it. That's > the four-footed fish crawling up on the shore... we'll get to mammals > later. I believe this post goes to the heart of everything that is most broken about iCal, and that we must take it very seriously if we're to have any hope of fixing this mess. I will therefore reiterate yet again my past observations about the potential for radical simplification, simply because no one has yet convinced me that what I advocate would be an *over* simplification. I believe that we should grab for any simplification that won't demonstrably make the standard inadequate for its primary purposes, which I regard to be personal and interpersonal event scheduling. I still believe that we can completely eliminate recurrence rules, and, given that elimination, we can radically reduce the importance and complexity of time zones as well. First of all, let's consider carefully what will happen if we choose to go down the road, as many are proposing, of making RRULES an optional part of the specification. In that world, the composer of an email invitation to a repeating meeting won't be able to know (for reasons touched on in my companion post, "Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful") whether or not the recipient(s) will understand RRULES. Thus, such a composer will inevitably end up sending repeating meeting invitations as multipart/alternatives, containing both a "set" and a "rule" description of the repeating meeting. In that case, I would argue that the RRULES can be dispensed with entirely as redundant. Eliminating RRULES implies, in turn, that we can use UTC for nearly everything, so that the only time zone translation that needs to be done is at the user level and involves the relatively straightforward translation between UTC and the user's own time zone. Together, this pair of changes would be an enormous simplification of a protocol that I believe is choking under its own complexity. Even the discussion on this list about how to simplify RRULES is, I fear, too complex for many potential implementors to understand, and thus will inevitably lead to "misinterpretations." (I put the word in quotes because I believe that if there is any way to misinterpret a standard, it is the spec that is at fault, not the implementor. Long experience has taught that if there is more than one way to interpret an RFC, it will be interpreted in more than one way by software that claims to be conformant.) If, as I am claiming, it is *possible* to do everything without RRULES, and that RRULES are just a bandwith-and-space-saving-convenience for repeat meetings that have LOTS of repeats (and, of course, a truly vital feature for any imaginary meetings that continue infinitely, unlike their attendees), then we should try to build a complete version without RRULES first, and only try to add on the efficiency/convenience of RRULES later, if at all. Worrying about the cost/efficiency of representing a recurring meeting, in a world full of BitTorrent and webcams, strikes me as rather myopic. If we can live with base64, we can live with this. I know that several of you are tired of hearing this argument from me. I encourage you to shut me up by convincing me that it is NOT possible to define a completely adequate version of iCal that doesn't have any recurrence rules. But if it is possible, I think it is what we should do. -- Nathaniel X-Envelope-From: nsb@guppylake.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.optistreams.net (206-169-2-196.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.2.196]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AGTLaZ014120 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:29:21 -0800 Received: from [192.168.0.102] [68.42.70.186] by mail.optistreams.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.04) id A463B0F30272; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:57:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <98079ce75dc9af4b2a1262dcc47595a0@guppylake.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:29:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] The ical version number must be bumped X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:21 -0000 In October, Doug wrote: > The difficult part is to ensure that we can distinguish old and new > objects > and interoperate as much as possible. which Tom Ramsdell simplified to: > Default has to be current behavior to accomodate existing iCalendar > generators. It seems to me that, given the number and nature of the problems with the old spec, we have no real choice but to bump the ical version number to 3.0. Tom's concern about backwards compatibility is a real one, but my feeling is that, for as long as there are enough ical 2.0 implementations out there to care abut, a 3.0-complaint implementation can *send* both 2.0 and 3.0 data, wrapped in a multipart/alternative. It's ugly, but it's the only hope I see for getting to a cleaner, simpler design in the long run. With regard to how we'll actually specify version numbers, Tim Hare wrote: > VERSION; LEVEL=STANDARD: 2.0 Complies with RFC 2445/6/7 as written > today > VERSION: 2.0 Same as above, under 2.0 > default would be LEVEL=STANDARD to grandfather existing stuff > VERSION: 3.0 Same as the first one, under > 3.0 default would be LEVEL=BASIC > VERSION; LEVEL=EXTENDED: 3.0 Standard plus extensions, look for the > EXTENSIONS property > EXTENSIONS: RFC9901, RFC9902, RFC9903 I think that this and similar proposals to embed capability information with the version number are plausible but perilous, for reasons described in my other post, "Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful". That is, they're useful, but I think it would be a mistake to use version numbers received in the past to make choices about the format of a message to be sent. Finally, a minor syntactic comment is that if we go down the path of extensions, I don't see why we need the syntactic change of "LEVEL=" -- it seems to me that syntactically you can do just as well with VERSION: 3.0; EXTENSIONS="EXT1, EXT2, etc." I also claim that it's safer to give these things symbolic names (EXT1) rather than RFC numbers, so that it will be possible to produce a new RFC that clarifies but does not change the meaning of an extension. Version numbers are very tricky. I will be embarassed about our underspecification of "MIME-Version: 1.0" to my dying day. Let's try to get this one right. -- Nathaniel X-Envelope-From: nsb@guppylake.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.optistreams.net (206-169-2-196.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.2.196]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AGT9aZ014114 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:29:10 -0800 Received: from [192.168.0.102] [68.42.70.186] by mail.optistreams.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.04) id A457B0F30272; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:57:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9816d1171ea57d2e05ea5674f48165e7@guppylake.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:29:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:10 -0000 I'm somewhat concerned about any suggestion (below made by Doug, but he's by no means alone) that encourages the composer of an iTIP message to try to take into account the capabilities of the intended receiver(s): > 2) We add a property to all iTIP replies that indicate the supported > features of the > side that is replying. We name this new property EXTENSIONS. And > it will be > a muilti valued property that lists the RFC numbers of > extensions supported by the > sender of the object. This property will go at the same level as > VERSION. I am skeptical that we can ever make this sort of capabilities consideration work well in an email (imip) context. There's no precedent for requiring email composers to ascertain the recipient's capabilities before deciding on the format of the message they're sending, and I'd prefer not to make the calendaring work depend on such a disruptive change to the email model. Note that ESMTP is not a counterexample, because the only capabilities exchange happens synchronously at SMTP hops rather than when the message is being composed for eventual delivery to a (possibly offline) recipient. -- Nathaniel X-Envelope-From: nsb@guppylake.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from mail.optistreams.net (206-169-2-196.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.2.196]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1AGSpaZ014097 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:28:51 -0800 Received: from [192.168.0.102] [68.42.70.186] by mail.optistreams.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.04) id A445B0F30272; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:56:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <418131C4.9080200@Royer.com> References: <0649D32A5A62294BBF93B77A6EC985AD158970@trebe051.ntc.nokia.com> <418131C4.9080200@Royer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <a6eb3fdaa9a88074c838370d7f55244e@guppylake.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@guppylake.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:28:44 -0500 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Jumping back into the fray, with an apology X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:28:51 -0000 I must begin with an apology: I had fallen way behind on the calendaring discussions due to a combination of new work responsibilities, family crises, and the usual email overload. However, I have actually managed to catch up on the discussions, and have a few comments to throw in; I apologize for their tardiness. My comments center around the notion of *simplifying* ical. I am not yet convinced that we are being radical enough for this effort to succeed. I have comments on 3 general topics that have come up in the last few months of discussion, which I am separating into 3 different messages, to make any subsequent discussion easier to follow. My next three messages will discuss the following topics: -- Receiver Capability Description Considered Harmful -- The ical version number must be bumped -- What's wrong with more radical simplification? Finally, after all of this belated and opinionated ranting, you will no doubt be happy to hear that I have no opinion whatsoever on the XML question. I firmly believe that if we ever get the semantics right, either syntax will be fine. -- Nathaniel X-Envelope-From: Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j1A5VSaZ029736 for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:31:28 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.100?) (dave.thewlis@sbcglobal.net@69.107.151.197 with plain) by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 05:31:28 -0000 Message-ID: <420AF1A8.3090707@calconnect.org> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:31:20 -0800 From: Dave Thewlis <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org> Organization: The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify list <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Report on Calconnect Roundtable II; advance notice of Roundtable III - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:31:29 -0000 This note is going to the ietf-caldav and ietf-calsify mailing lists, which means that many people will get it twice. My apologies; there seem to be enough people on one or the other but not both to require separate sends. ---------------- The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium, also known as CalConnect, held its first formal Roundtable event together with an Interop in Seattle, Washington on 11-13 January, hosted by the University of Washington. A report on Roundtable II has been posted to the Calconnect website at www.calconnect.org: choose "Roundtable II" from the sidebar or go to www.calconnect.org/roundtable2.html. The public report on the Interop event has been posted on the website under Past Interops, where you can also locate information and results from previous Calconnect Interops. The next Consortium Roundtable and Interop will be 1-3 June, 2005, hosted by Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Please visit our website at www.calconnect.org for further information about the Consortium including events, technical committees, and Interops. Please contact me with any questions or for information about joining the Consoritum. Best Regards, Dave Thewlis, Executive Director The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium +1 707 840 9391 voice +1 707 498 2238 cell X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j1219daa006017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:40 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j1219W7J015699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:34 -0800 Message-ID: <4200284B.7040701@Royer.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:09:31 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] BOF at Minneapolis IETF meeting References: <51B1AB23F0ABEBA53A8BB9F0@ninevah.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <51B1AB23F0ABEBA53A8BB9F0@ninevah.cyrusoft.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040804090807080501050104" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:09:41 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040804090807080501050104 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030001040908070106000501" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030001040908070106000501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Input to this BOF will be a problem statement internet-draft > draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt that pulls together existing document > errata, known problems with the specs and results from interoperability > tests. I was getting ready to go back over the CALSCH archives and my notes to get such a list. I am glad your going to do this, I'll wait. In addition, draft-royer-ical-basic-01.txt provides one possible > direction for revisions. It is now at -02. I put REPEAT and DURATION back in VALARM, they should not have been deprecated. And other fixes to text. == and unrelated == And draft-royer-timezone-registry-01.txt is out with suggestions from others including the 'TZ' guru mailing list. NOTE: Some on the TZ mailing list that say they do the real work of keeping the database up to date requested that we stop calling it the 'Olson' database and start calling it the 'TZ' database. Mr. Olson had no objection. So TZ-01 calls it the TZ database. It adds optional POLYGON that descries the longitude / latitude of a polygon that outlines a TZ region per the request of some cartographers. The counter clockwise direction was a suggestion by the TZ mailing list. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------030001040908070106000501 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. GreenValley Pkwy #845;Henderson;NV;89014;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:208-612-4638 tel;fax:866-494-8574 tel;cell:208-520-4044 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------030001040908070106000501-- --------------ms040804090807080501050104 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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Message-ID: <51B1AB23F0ABEBA53A8BB9F0@ninevah.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a4 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tests=none X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] BOF at Minneapolis IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:37:11 -0000 Hi folks, We have requested a BOF slot for the IETF meeting in Minneapolis to help us jump start the Calsify effort. Below is the Agenda for the proposed BOF. Note that we can tweak this as needed before the actual meeting. The goal for the BOF (as mentioned below) is to come up with major charter points and milestones that can be used for an IETF working group charter to help carry out this work, assuming that that is what we actually want to do. I am still working on the draft metione3d in the agenda. This will basically attempt to summarise current issues in the existing specs to help us formulate a possible solution. Right now I am planning on incorporating problem info from: <http://www.softwarestudio.org/iCal/2445Issues.html> <http://tipi.sourceforge.net/doc/recur/apa.html> RFCEditor errata page Interop reports. I will also try and scan the mailing lists to extract issues from there, but the deadline for -00 drafts is next Monday and a thorough mailing list scan may take a while. If you know of any other sources of 2445 etc issues, please let me know. If you have your own list of issues, I would appreciate it if you could forward those to me too. --------------- Calendaring and Scheduling Simplification BOF (Calsify) Chairs: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com> RL 'Bob' Morgan <rlmorgan@washington.edu> Description Calendaring and Scheduling is currently defined in RFCs 2445, 2446 and 2447. These documents have been available for several years now, and a number of implementations exist. However, a number of interoperability problems exist between these implementations, some due to bugs in the specifications, some due to lack of clarity in the specifications and some due to under specification of key behaviors. As a result, interoperable calendaring and scheduling has not been truly achieved. The purpose of this BOF is to discuss revising RFCs 2445, 2446 and 2447 with the primary goal of achieving interoperability over the range of calendaring and scheduling tasks needed in real world situations. The goal of the BOF is to come up with a clear direction on how those revisions should be done, including the scope of changes. The desired outcome is a set of major charter points and milestones for a proposed IETF calsify working group. Input to this BOF will be a problem statement internet-draft draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt that pulls together existing document errata, known problems with the specs and results from interoperability tests. In addition, draft-royer-ical-basic-01.txt provides one possible direction for revisions. Proposed agenda follows: Agenda - Introduction (blue sheets, scribe etc) (1 min) - Agenda Bashing (3 mins) - Introduction (6 mins) - Problem statement document (60 mins) - Possible Solutions (40 mins) - Next Steps/WG CHarter (10 mins) Total 120 mins -- Cyrus Daboo
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Cameron Stillion
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… pregen@egenconsulting.com
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Robert_Ransdell@notesdev.ibm.com
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Keith MacDonald
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… pregen@egenconsulting.com
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… pregen@egenconsulting.com
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Cameron Stillion
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Cyrus Daboo
- [Ietf-calsify] Re: Google Speculation, but intere… Cyrus Daboo