[Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00
Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Sat, 08 January 2005 09:39 UTC
From: "Doug at Royer.com"
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:39:17 +0000
Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00
In-Reply-To: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com>
References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com>
Message-ID: <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com>
X-Date: Sat Jan 8 09:39:17 2005
I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) or DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) This is an data format for exchanging calendar information, it has nothing to do with how any implementation stores the data. Is the reason that both existed because the WG could not decide? Or was there another reason? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050108/6ada965c/smime.bin From reinhold at kainhofer.com Sat Jan 8 10:28:27 2005 From: reinhold at kainhofer.com (Reinhold Kainhofer) Date: Sat Jan 8 10:28:47 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 In-Reply-To: <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> Message-ID: <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 18:39 schrieb Doug Royer: > I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION > and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying > to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? > > DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) > or > DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) There's a small difference between these two. They are identical most of the time, except for those two times a year when DST switches occur. If you have a recurring event that falls on these switch times, you can easily see the difference: 1) You have nightshifts from 22:00 until 06:00 every day, so when the DST switch happens, your nightshift will be one hour longer/shorter than the usual 8 hours. => DTSTART and DTEND needed 2) On the other hand, if you need to operate a machine or some other mechanical process for, say, 15 hours over night, then the date end needs to differ for the night when the DST switch occurs. => DTSTART and DURATION needed Cheers, Reinhold -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050108/4255717f/attachment.bin From Doug at Royer.com Sat Jan 8 14:46:35 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sat Jan 8 14:46:47 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 In-Reply-To: <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Message-ID: <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> There are two effects - I agree. Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)? Or did they really want a DURATION ? Having worked 3rd shift in he past, I still only worked 8 hours, no more, no less. Do people have their 3rd shift work one hour shorter/longer? I'll bet they still work DTSTART + DURATION and just make sure everyone knows what time the clock will say at the end. In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so would DURATION be sufficient? Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 18:39 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION >>and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying >>to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? >> >> DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) >>or >> DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) > > > There's a small difference between these two. They are identical most of the > time, except for those two times a year when DST switches occur. If you have > a recurring event that falls on these switch times, you can easily see the > difference: > > 1) You have nightshifts from 22:00 until 06:00 every day, so when the DST > switch happens, your nightshift will be one hour longer/shorter than the > usual 8 hours. => DTSTART and DTEND needed > > 2) On the other hand, if you need to operate a machine or some other > mechanical process for, say, 15 hours over night, then the date end needs to > differ for the night when the DST switch occurs. => DTSTART and DURATION > needed > > Cheers, > Reinhold > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050108/854c2eed/smime.bin From reinhold at kainhofer.com Sat Jan 8 16:58:06 2005 From: reinhold at kainhofer.com (Reinhold Kainhofer) Date: Sat Jan 8 16:58:31 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 In-Reply-To: <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> Message-ID: <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 23:46 schrieb Doug Royer: > Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)? Sure, why not? The example I gave was really just meant as an example where it's easy to see the difference. I'm sure there are lots of events that are defined by their end date, not their duration. E.g. if you need to catch the train every morning, and you enter your sleeping time as a recurring event in your calendar (because during that time you want your f/b list to show you as busy, or for some other reason). > In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so > would DURATION be sufficient? Yes, that's a good argument. I also had a long discussion over this with Helge Hess (from OpenGroupware.org). As long as no recurrences are involved, DTSTART and DURATION is the right solution in our eyes. In particular, if you move an event, you only have to adjust the DTSTART and the end date will be correct. If you used DTSTART and DTEND, you'll have to adjust both if you want to move the event. Additionally, if you just use the same offset to the DTSTART and the DTEND, you'll again run into the same problems when the time zone shift appears between these two times... I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference with recurring event). Cheers, Reinhold -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org/, KOrganizer / KPilot maintainer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050109/b93226be/attachment.bin From Doug at Royer.com Sat Jan 8 17:19:44 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sat Jan 8 17:19:58 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 In-Reply-To: <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Message-ID: <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 23:46 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)? > > > Sure, why not? The example I gave was really just meant as an example where > it's easy to see the difference. I'm sure there are lots of events that are > defined by their end date, not their duration. E.g. if you need to catch the > train every morning, and you enter your sleeping time as a recurring event in > your calendar (because during that time you want your f/b list to show you as > busy, or for some other reason). > Your GUI might do that for you, however I can still calculate one from the other - so I am not convinced that when we send an iCalendar object to another CUA, that it cares why we elected to select that length of time or end time. The chances are that it will convert it to its favorite way (DURATION or LENGTH) anyway. > >>In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so >>would DURATION be sufficient? > > > Yes, that's a good argument. I also had a long discussion over this with Helge > Hess (from OpenGroupware.org). > As long as no recurrences are involved, DTSTART and DURATION is the right > solution in our eyes. In particular, if you move an event, you only have to > adjust the DTSTART and the end date will be correct. If you used DTSTART and > DTEND, you'll have to adjust both if you want to move the event. > Additionally, if you just use the same offset to the DTSTART and the DTEND, > you'll again run into the same problems when the time zone shift appears > between these two times... Unless someone comes up with a reason iCal-Basic-01 will drop DTEND. > > I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in > iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference > with recurring event). I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative to each other. If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any way you wish. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050108/d3ebf245/smime.bin From reinhold at kainhofer.com Sat Jan 8 19:01:06 2005 From: reinhold at kainhofer.com (Reinhold Kainhofer) Date: Sat Jan 8 19:01:26 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 In-Reply-To: <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> Message-ID: <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 02:19 schrieb Doug Royer: > > I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in > > iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference > > with recurring event). > > I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time > to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still > show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative > to each other. No, it makes a difference. See my two examples. The group which uses DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence would expect that the event ends one hour earlier/later than the group that uses DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence. Of course only if a DST shift happens while the event takes place (yes, that's a borderline case, but a standard that works only in 99% of all cases is useless. So ical-extended needs to specify it). > If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to > be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always > free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any > way you wish. Ahm, are we talking about a revision of RFC 2445 or only of 2446? iCalendar (2445) is not only a format for group scheduling, but a general format for calendar data exchange. In particular, lots of calendaring applications use iCalendar as their standardized storage format (actually, all larger free/open source software packages, like KOrganizer, Evolution, Mozilla sunbird; and also Apple's iCal), which is very important for interopability and data im/export! Also note that RFC 2445 does explicitly say that it is meant not only as a format for scheduling, but for general calendar data interopability. In particular, from the Introduction of rfc2445: The iCalendar format is suitable as an exchange format between applications or systems. The format is defined in terms of a MIME content type. This will enable the object to be exchanged using several transports, including but not limited to SMTP, HTTP, a file system, desktop interactive protocols such as the use of a memory- based clipboard or drag/drop interactions, point-to-point asynchronous communication, wired-network transport, or some form of unwired transport such as infrared might also be used. The memo also provides for the definition of iCalendar object methods that will map this content type to a set of messages for supporting calendaring and scheduling operations such as requesting, replying So, in other words, rfc2445 defines a general calendar format that can and should be used for moving calendar data across applications systems (im-/export, or only drag'n'dropping calendar data, or simply storing calendar data). The second paragraph states that it also provides the definitions for scheduling, but the wording implies for me that the rfc is mainly meant to be used as a calendar storage format. rfc 2446 talks about how the storage format defined in 2445 can be used for scheduling. The same wording can also be found in your draft. So, in your draft you say that ical-Basic is meant as a format to exchange data (not necessarily scheduling) between apps or systems (which means it's meant also for example to copy your whole calendar to another computer and just use that file there. From Doug at Royer.com Sat Jan 8 20:40:58 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sat Jan 8 20:41:11 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal and DTEND/DURATION In-Reply-To: <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Message-ID: <41E0B5DA.6050406@Royer.com> Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 02:19 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>>I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in >>>iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference >>>with recurring event). >> >>I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time >>to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still >>show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative >>to each other. > > > No, it makes a difference. See my two examples. The group which uses > DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence would expect that the event ends one hour > earlier/later than the group that uses DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence. Of course > only if a DST shift happens while the event takes place (yes, that's a > borderline case, but a standard that works only in 99% of all cases is > useless. So ical-extended needs to specify it). > ( it has been a long day for me, so pleas double check this!!) To see this you have to compare instances in UTC and you will see they always match this: end-time-UTC - start-time-UTC always == DURATION. Assuming they did the RECURRENCE-ID per iTIP and you are given the DTSTART and DTEND and the TZID parameter is "TZ-X'. start_tzoffset for DTEND is (-7 per TZ-X) end_tzoffset for DTSTART is (-7 per TZ-X) recurrence_id_tzoffset for RECURRENCE-ID is (-6 per TZ-X) (because the instance time is across a time zone DST change). orignal_end_time_utc = DTEND + end_tzoffset. original_start_time_utc = DTSTART + start_tzoffset. recurr_id_start_time_utc = RECURRENCE-ID + recurrence_id_tzoffset. Then, event_duration = original_end_time_utc - original_start_time_utc Now as the RECURRENCE-ID is the start time of the instance, so instance_start_time_utc = recur_id_start_time_utc instance_end_time_utc = instance_start_time_utc + event_duration. If the duration of the ORIGINAL instance is computed in UTC and you use iTIP RECURRENCE-ID values, the above math always works and dtend - dtstart == duration even when to the casual observer the values to the right of the COLON for DTSTART and DTEND do not. They always equal! Now if you do what a couple of vendors do and ALWAYS set the RECURRENCE-ID value equal to the DTSTART value (not per iTIP), then the following math will show they are always equal. Often they do the math only with the instance and not the original iTIP object, so that is how I will do the math. start_tzoffset for DTSTART is (-7 per TZ-X) (They toss the original DTSTART and replace it with the instance start time.) end_tzoffset for DTEND is (-6 per TZ-X) (They toss the original DTEND and replace it with the computed end time of the instance.) And recurrence_id_tzoffset for RECURRENCE-ID exactly the same as the start_tzoffset (because they always set RECURRENCE-ID equal to DTSTART). instance_end_time_utc = DTEND + end_tzoffset. instance_start_time_utc = DTSTART + start_tzoffset. recurr_id_start_time_utc = instance_start_time_utc (Because they always set it to the DTSTART value). Then event_duration = instance_end_time_utc - instance_start_time_utc So is always true that (because the live above this is the same formula.) instance_end_time_utc - instance_start_time_utc == event_duration. A GUI has to do the correct thing and stretch the GUI, show two 2-AM's or drop 2-AM (or whenever your time zone change). However the data when compared in UTC always matches. It appears to fail because: instance_DTEND_in_tz_X - instance_DTSTART_in_tz_X != DURATION (4am - 1am == 3 hours, EXCEPT on nights when the time changes) However the following is always true: instance_DTEND_in_utc - instance_DTSTART_in_utc == DURATION > >>If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to >>be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always >>free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any >>way you wish. > > > Ahm, are we talking about a revision of RFC 2445 or only of 2446? There is no document, draft, or RFC that I am aware of that talks about how to exchange non-iTIP (2446) iCalendar objects. > > iCalendar (2445) is not only a format for group scheduling, but a general > format for calendar data exchange. In particular, lots of calendaring > applications use iCalendar as their standardized storage format (actually, > all larger free/open source software packages, like KOrganizer, Evolution, > Mozilla sunbird; and also Apple's iCal), which is very important for > interopability and data im/export! It may be used that way. It is not per spec. That is why some implementations use the ABNF in 2445 and create objects with property and parameter values that can not be exchanged without error. The core specification (2445) specifies many of the permutations of objects, not how to put them together to exchange calendaring information. 2446 is the 'iCalendar Transport-Independent Interoperability Protocol'. > > So, in other words, rfc2445 defines a general calendar format that can and > should be used for moving calendar data across applications systems > (im-/export, or only drag'n'dropping calendar data, or simply storing > calendar data). No, 2445 specifies the data format, not the exchange protocol. If you look you can find many objects that you can create with 2445 that are bogus. It is not meant as a specification for exchanging data between vendors, that is iTIP's job. Your talking about iTIP PUBLISH which is the non-scheduling way to transport an object and say 'here it is', use it or not. > The second paragraph states that it also provides the definitions for > scheduling, but the wording implies for me that the rfc is mainly meant to be > used as a calendar storage format. rfc 2446 talks about how the storage > format defined in 2445 can be used for scheduling. There has not been a draft or RFC that talks about storage format. That was specifically off-topic. > > The same wording can also be found in your draft. So, in your draft you say > that ical-Basic is meant as a format to exchange data (not necessarily > scheduling) between apps or systems (which means it's meant also for example > to copy your whole calendar to another computer and just use that file there. > From your draft: "allows for the capture and exchange of information normally > stored within a calendaring and scheduling application; such as a Personal > Information Manager (PIM)"), while in your mail you state it's only about > scheduling. Much of the text comes from 2445. And yes iCal-Basic is meant to find and fix the holes in the usage. I'll add that one to the list. > If iCal-Basic is just about scheduling, wouldn't this also run counter to the > introduction, where you (and the original rfc) talk about enhancing > interopability? > iCal-Basic is not about scheduling at all. That will be iTIP-Basic - that where the fun starts. iCal-Basic is about tossing 2445 core objects in the trash that are miss used, busted, or never used. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050108/00ab92b5/smime.bin From Doug at Royer.com Mon Jan 10 13:06:01 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Mon Jan 10 13:06:23 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt] Message-ID: <41E2EE39.3000404@Royer.com> Skipped content of type multipart/mixed-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050110/752f55dc/smime.bin From Doug at Royer.com Sun Jan 16 13:11:43 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sun Jan 16 13:12:13 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] draft-royer-ical-basic-01.txt - sent to IETF Message-ID: <41EAD88F.1030601@Royer.com> I send -01 of iCal-Basis to the IETF. It fixed some problems and typos that were sent to me and the lists. It also deprecates DTEND and replaced the examples and ABNF with DURATION. Copy at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-ical-basic-01.txt And HTML version at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-ical-basic-01.html -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050116/28da6fee/smime.bin From Doug at Royer.com Sun Jan 16 15:10:45 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sun Jan 16 15:10:57 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] IANA Time Zone Registration Message-ID: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> ] A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted a proposal for that registry to the IETF. A copy can be found at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-timezone-registry-00.txt And an HTML version: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-timezone-registry-00.html I am adding the POLYGON property targeted for the -01 version that has an ADD/DELETE parameter to allow for the optional inclusion of latitude/longitude geographic areas to be included that include (add) and exclude (delete) areas from the time zone geographic region (again from the CALSCH mailing list discussions). -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050116/95d9caf0/smime.bin From Doug at Royer.com Mon Jan 17 11:12:48 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Mon Jan 17 11:13:30 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: IANA Time Zone Registration In-Reply-To: <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> References: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <41EC0E30.6020109@Royer.com> Thank you - I just sent the email. Jonathan Lennox wrote: > On Sunday, January 16 2005, "Doug Royer" wrote to "ietf-calendar@imc.org, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList" saying: > > >>A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list >>to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted >>a proposal for that registry to the IETF. > > > This proposal should also be shared with the TZ mailing list, > <tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov>. > > I note that your list of time zone names is out of date with respect > to the current version of tzdata (2005b). > -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050117/d1cc04fd/smime.bin From lennox at cnr.cs.columbia.edu Mon Jan 17 09:40:11 2005 From: lennox at cnr.cs.columbia.edu (Jonathan Lennox) Date: Fri Jan 21 08:32:23 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: IANA Time Zone Registration In-Reply-To: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> References: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> Message-ID: <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> On Sunday, January 16 2005, "Doug Royer" wrote to "ietf-calendar@imc.org, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList" saying: > A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list > to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted > a proposal for that registry to the IETF. This proposal should also be shared with the TZ mailing list, <tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov>. I note that your list of time zone names is out of date with respect to the current version of tzdata (2005b). -- Jonathan Lennox lennox at cs dot columbia dot edu From Doug at Royer.com Sat Jan 29 13:40:09 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Sat Jan 29 13:40:23 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Recurrence rule - COUNT ]/ UNTIL vs RDATE Message-ID: <41FC02B9.1090307@Royer.com> With bounded recurrences, how about in itip-next we deprecace UNTIL and COUNT? No real point as they can be replaced with a list of RDATE. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050129/f3808ac0/smime.bin From Doug at Royer.com Mon Jan 31 12:45:11 2005 From: Doug at Royer.com (Doug Royer) Date: Mon Jan 31 12:45:29 2005 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Recurrence rule - COUNT ]/ UNTIL vs RDATE In-Reply-To: <41FC02B9.1090307@Royer.com> References: <41FC02B9.1090307@Royer.com> Message-ID: <41FE98D7.5090308@Royer.com> Skipped content of type multipart/mixed-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4696 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/attachments/20050131/67587be8/smime.bin X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0VKjLaa010578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:45:23 -0800 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j0VKjCkh022003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:45:17 -0800 Message-ID: <41FE98D7.5090308@Royer.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:45:11 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Recurrence rule - COUNT ]/ UNTIL vs RDATE References: <41FC02B9.1090307@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41FC02B9.1090307@Royer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050000010605050300060609" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:45:26 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050000010605050300060609 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030309010503080305040608" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030309010503080305040608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry - I was asleep at the computer when I wrote this - dumb idea as pointed out to me on an IRC channel. Doug Royer wrote: > > With bounded recurrences, how about in itip-next we deprecace UNTIL and > COUNT? > > No real point as they can be replaced with a list of RDATE. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------030309010503080305040608 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consuiting.com adr:;;2756 N. 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Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040107030007040501010300" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: 0.05 () FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Recurrence rule - COUNT ]/ UNTIL vs RDATE X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:40:20 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040107030007040501010300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With bounded recurrences, how about in itip-next we deprecace UNTIL and COUNT? No real point as they can be replaced with a list of RDATE. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms040107030007040501010300 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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To: Jonathan Lennox <lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> References: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030108000109080403050606" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList <ietf-caldav@osafoundation.org>, "ietf-calendar@imc.org" <ietf-calendar@imc.org> Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: IANA Time Zone Registration X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:13:28 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030108000109080403050606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you - I just sent the email. Jonathan Lennox wrote: > On Sunday, January 16 2005, "Doug Royer" wrote to "ietf-calendar@imc.org, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList" saying: > > >>A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list >>to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted >>a proposal for that registry to the IETF. > > > This proposal should also be shared with the TZ mailing list, > <tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov>. > > I note that your list of time zone names is out of date with respect > to the current version of tzdata (2005b). > -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms030108000109080403050606 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp 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lennox@localhost) by cnr.cs.columbia.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j0HHeCbE031683; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:40:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lennox) From: Jonathan Lennox <lennox@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16875.63611.998914.411492@cnr.cs.columbia.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:40:11 -0500 To: Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> References: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:32:22 -0800 Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList <ietf-caldav@osafoundation.org>, "ietf-calendar@imc.org" <ietf-calendar@imc.org> Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: IANA Time Zone Registration X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:40:20 -0000 On Sunday, January 16 2005, "Doug Royer" wrote to "ietf-calendar@imc.org, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList" saying: > A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list > to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted > a proposal for that registry to the IETF. This proposal should also be shared with the TZ mailing list, <tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov>. I note that your list of time zone names is out of date with respect to the current version of tzdata (2005b). -- Jonathan Lennox lennox at cs dot columbia dot edu X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0GNAqaa004411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:10:53 -0800 Received: from Royer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j0GNAjXB013606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <41EAF475.3060407@Royer.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:10:45 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" <ietf-calendar@imc.org>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList <ietf-caldav@osafoundation.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040804090802090308080209" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] IANA Time Zone Registration X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:10:55 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040804090802090308080209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ] A couple of years ago there was talk on the CALSCH mailing list to have an IANA time zone registration process. I have submitted a proposal for that registry to the IETF. A copy can be found at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-timezone-registry-00.txt And an HTML version: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-timezone-registry-00.html I am adding the POLYGON property targeted for the -01 version that has an ADD/DELETE parameter to allow for the optional inclusion of latitude/longitude geographic areas to be included that include (add) and exclude (delete) areas from the time zone geographic region (again from the CALSCH mailing list discussions). -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms040804090802090308080209 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature 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ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:12:11 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010605090304020907010903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I send -01 of iCal-Basis to the IETF. It fixed some problems and typos that were sent to me and the lists. It also deprecates DTEND and replaced the examples and ABNF with DURATION. Copy at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-ical-basic-01.txt And HTML version at: http://inet-consulting.com/draft-royer-ical-basic-01.html -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms010605090304020907010903 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp 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Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" <ietf-calendar@imc.org>, ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org, CalDAV DevList <ietf-caldav@osafoundation.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040000010404040105070301" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-calsify] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt] X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:06:20 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040000010404040105070301 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090801060904050606000008" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090801060904050606000008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:40:02 -0500 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Basic Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object Specification (iCalendar Basic) Author(s) : D. Royer Filename : draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt Pages : 104 Date : 2005-1-3 This is the second release of a iCalendar. After having learned from RFC-2445. This document represents the common objects needed for calendaring. VTODO, VJOURNAL, VTIMEZONE, recurrence rules, and scheduling and their associated properties have been removed. These removals are expected to appear in new memos at a later time and will be independent extensions of this specification. The new EXTENSIONS property will exist to allow for compatible sets of extensions. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------090801060904050606000008 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="draft-royer-ical-basic-00.txt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-1-3151136.I-D@ietf.org> --------------090801060904050606000008 Content-Type: text/plain; name="file:///tmp/nsmail.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="file:///tmp/nsmail.txt" _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org 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X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j094f5aa017564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:41:06 -0800 Received: from Royer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j094eweW015315 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:41:00 -0800 Message-ID: <41E0B5DA.6050406@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:40:58 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> In-Reply-To: <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010104050404010609040504" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 Subject: [Ietf-calsify] iCal and DTEND/DURATION X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:41:10 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010104050404010609040504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 02:19 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>>I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in >>>iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference >>>with recurring event). >> >>I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time >>to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still >>show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative >>to each other. > > > No, it makes a difference. See my two examples. The group which uses > DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence would expect that the event ends one hour > earlier/later than the group that uses DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence. Of course > only if a DST shift happens while the event takes place (yes, that's a > borderline case, but a standard that works only in 99% of all cases is > useless. So ical-extended needs to specify it). > ( it has been a long day for me, so pleas double check this!!) To see this you have to compare instances in UTC and you will see they always match this: end-time-UTC - start-time-UTC always == DURATION. Assuming they did the RECURRENCE-ID per iTIP and you are given the DTSTART and DTEND and the TZID parameter is "TZ-X'. start_tzoffset for DTEND is (-7 per TZ-X) end_tzoffset for DTSTART is (-7 per TZ-X) recurrence_id_tzoffset for RECURRENCE-ID is (-6 per TZ-X) (because the instance time is across a time zone DST change). orignal_end_time_utc = DTEND + end_tzoffset. original_start_time_utc = DTSTART + start_tzoffset. recurr_id_start_time_utc = RECURRENCE-ID + recurrence_id_tzoffset. Then, event_duration = original_end_time_utc - original_start_time_utc Now as the RECURRENCE-ID is the start time of the instance, so instance_start_time_utc = recur_id_start_time_utc instance_end_time_utc = instance_start_time_utc + event_duration. If the duration of the ORIGINAL instance is computed in UTC and you use iTIP RECURRENCE-ID values, the above math always works and dtend - dtstart == duration even when to the casual observer the values to the right of the COLON for DTSTART and DTEND do not. They always equal! Now if you do what a couple of vendors do and ALWAYS set the RECURRENCE-ID value equal to the DTSTART value (not per iTIP), then the following math will show they are always equal. Often they do the math only with the instance and not the original iTIP object, so that is how I will do the math. start_tzoffset for DTSTART is (-7 per TZ-X) (They toss the original DTSTART and replace it with the instance start time.) end_tzoffset for DTEND is (-6 per TZ-X) (They toss the original DTEND and replace it with the computed end time of the instance.) And recurrence_id_tzoffset for RECURRENCE-ID exactly the same as the start_tzoffset (because they always set RECURRENCE-ID equal to DTSTART). instance_end_time_utc = DTEND + end_tzoffset. instance_start_time_utc = DTSTART + start_tzoffset. recurr_id_start_time_utc = instance_start_time_utc (Because they always set it to the DTSTART value). Then event_duration = instance_end_time_utc - instance_start_time_utc So is always true that (because the live above this is the same formula.) instance_end_time_utc - instance_start_time_utc == event_duration. A GUI has to do the correct thing and stretch the GUI, show two 2-AM's or drop 2-AM (or whenever your time zone change). However the data when compared in UTC always matches. It appears to fail because: instance_DTEND_in_tz_X - instance_DTSTART_in_tz_X != DURATION (4am - 1am == 3 hours, EXCEPT on nights when the time changes) However the following is always true: instance_DTEND_in_utc - instance_DTSTART_in_utc == DURATION > >>If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to >>be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always >>free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any >>way you wish. > > > Ahm, are we talking about a revision of RFC 2445 or only of 2446? There is no document, draft, or RFC that I am aware of that talks about how to exchange non-iTIP (2446) iCalendar objects. > > iCalendar (2445) is not only a format for group scheduling, but a general > format for calendar data exchange. In particular, lots of calendaring > applications use iCalendar as their standardized storage format (actually, > all larger free/open source software packages, like KOrganizer, Evolution, > Mozilla sunbird; and also Apple's iCal), which is very important for > interopability and data im/export! It may be used that way. It is not per spec. That is why some implementations use the ABNF in 2445 and create objects with property and parameter values that can not be exchanged without error. The core specification (2445) specifies many of the permutations of objects, not how to put them together to exchange calendaring information. 2446 is the 'iCalendar Transport-Independent Interoperability Protocol'. > > So, in other words, rfc2445 defines a general calendar format that can and > should be used for moving calendar data across applications systems > (im-/export, or only drag'n'dropping calendar data, or simply storing > calendar data). No, 2445 specifies the data format, not the exchange protocol. If you look you can find many objects that you can create with 2445 that are bogus. It is not meant as a specification for exchanging data between vendors, that is iTIP's job. Your talking about iTIP PUBLISH which is the non-scheduling way to transport an object and say 'here it is', use it or not. > The second paragraph states that it also provides the definitions for > scheduling, but the wording implies for me that the rfc is mainly meant to be > used as a calendar storage format. rfc 2446 talks about how the storage > format defined in 2445 can be used for scheduling. There has not been a draft or RFC that talks about storage format. That was specifically off-topic. > > The same wording can also be found in your draft. So, in your draft you say > that ical-Basic is meant as a format to exchange data (not necessarily > scheduling) between apps or systems (which means it's meant also for example > to copy your whole calendar to another computer and just use that file there. > From your draft: "allows for the capture and exchange of information normally > stored within a calendaring and scheduling application; such as a Personal > Information Manager (PIM)"), while in your mail you state it's only about > scheduling. Much of the text comes from 2445. And yes iCal-Basic is meant to find and fix the holes in the usage. I'll add that one to the list. > If iCal-Basic is just about scheduling, wouldn't this also run counter to the > introduction, where you (and the original rfc) talk about enhancing > interopability? > iCal-Basic is not about scheduling at all. That will be iTIP-Basic - that where the fun starts. iCal-Basic is about tossing 2445 core objects in the trash that are miss used, busted, or never used. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms010104050404010609040504 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 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<ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:01:21 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:01:06 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.91 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1949890.As98Rs1nTP"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501090401.08847.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:01:25 -0000 --nextPart1949890.As98Rs1nTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 02:19 schrieb Doug Royer: > > I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in > > iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a differen= ce > > with recurring event). > > I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time > to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still > show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative > to each other. No, it makes a difference. See my two examples. The group which uses=20 DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence would expect that the event ends one hour=20 earlier/later than the group that uses DTSTART+DURATION+recurrence. Of cour= se=20 only if a DST shift happens while the event takes place (yes, that's a=20 borderline case, but a standard that works only in 99% of all cases is=20 useless. So ical-extended needs to specify it). > If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to > be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always > free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any > way you wish. Ahm, are we talking about a revision of RFC 2445 or only of 2446?=20 iCalendar (2445) is not only a format for group scheduling, but a general=20 format for calendar data exchange. In particular, lots of calendaring=20 applications use iCalendar as their standardized storage format (actually,= =20 all larger free/open source software packages, like KOrganizer, Evolution,= =20 Mozilla sunbird; and also Apple's iCal), which is very important for=20 interopability and data im/export!=20 Also note that RFC 2445 does explicitly say that it is meant not only as a= =20 format for scheduling, but for general calendar data interopability. In=20 particular, from the Introduction of rfc2445: The iCalendar format is suitable as an exchange format between applications or systems. The format is defined in terms of a MIME content type. This will enable the object to be exchanged using several transports, including but not limited to SMTP, HTTP, a file system, desktop interactive protocols such as the use of a memory- based clipboard or drag/drop interactions, point-to-point asynchronous communication, wired-network transport, or some form of unwired transport such as infrared might also be used. The memo also provides for the definition of iCalendar object methods that will map this content type to a set of messages for supporting calendaring and scheduling operations such as requesting, replying So, in other words, rfc2445 defines a general calendar format that can and= =20 should be used for moving calendar data across applications systems =20 (im-/export, or only drag'n'dropping calendar data, or simply storing=20 calendar data). The second paragraph states that it also provides the definitions for=20 scheduling, but the wording implies for me that the rfc is mainly meant to = be=20 used as a calendar storage format. rfc 2446 talks about how the storage=20 format defined in 2445 can be used for scheduling. The same wording can also be found in your draft. So, in your draft you say= =20 that ical-Basic is meant as a format to exchange data (not necessarily=20 scheduling) between apps or systems (which means it's meant also for exampl= e=20 to copy your whole calendar to another computer and just use that file ther= e.=20 =46rom your draft: "allows for the capture and exchange of information norm= ally=20 stored within a calendaring and scheduling application; such as a Personal= =20 Information Manager (PIM)"), while in your mail you state it's only about=20 scheduling.=20 If iCal-Basic is just about scheduling, wouldn't this also run counter to t= he=20 introduction, where you (and the original rfc) talk about enhancing=20 interopability?=20 Or do I misunderstand anything about your goals? Cheers, Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org/, KOrganizer / KPilot maintain= er --nextPart1949890.As98Rs1nTP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4J50TqjEwhXvPN0RAq3hAJ9AzCHrYtL/mDHGox3jcXYkCE39CgCfVSts GcpTRQmveZWoSg5gm95ST0E= =MXZL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1949890.As98Rs1nTP-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j091Jraa031262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:19:54 -0800 Received: from Royer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j091JjeW013006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:19:47 -0800 Message-ID: <41E086B0.30302@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:19:44 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> In-Reply-To: <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020807020902040908070106" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:19:56 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020807020902040908070106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 23:46 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)? > > > Sure, why not? The example I gave was really just meant as an example where > it's easy to see the difference. I'm sure there are lots of events that are > defined by their end date, not their duration. E.g. if you need to catch the > train every morning, and you enter your sleeping time as a recurring event in > your calendar (because during that time you want your f/b list to show you as > busy, or for some other reason). > Your GUI might do that for you, however I can still calculate one from the other - so I am not convinced that when we send an iCalendar object to another CUA, that it cares why we elected to select that length of time or end time. The chances are that it will convert it to its favorite way (DURATION or LENGTH) anyway. > >>In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so >>would DURATION be sufficient? > > > Yes, that's a good argument. I also had a long discussion over this with Helge > Hess (from OpenGroupware.org). > As long as no recurrences are involved, DTSTART and DURATION is the right > solution in our eyes. In particular, if you move an event, you only have to > adjust the DTSTART and the end date will be correct. If you used DTSTART and > DTEND, you'll have to adjust both if you want to move the event. > Additionally, if you just use the same offset to the DTSTART and the DTEND, > you'll again run into the same problems when the time zone shift appears > between these two times... Unless someone comes up with a reason iCal-Basic-01 will drop DTEND. > > I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in > iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference > with recurring event). I am still not convinced that it results in any different block of time to the ATTENDEEs that got your iCalendar object. Everyone would still show up at the same time and expect to leave at the same time relative to each other. If your talking about an appointment for which there is never going to be a PUBLISH or REQUEST sent, then the point is moot as you are always free to store your data that is not going to be sent to someone else any way you wish. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms020807020902040908070106 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:58:24 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:58:06 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.91 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart9794832.JYhHsSTT6x"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501090158.11108.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:58:30 -0000 --nextPart9794832.JYhHsSTT6x Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 23:46 schrieb Doug Royer: > Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)?=20 Sure, why not? The example I gave was really just meant as an example where= =20 it's easy to see the difference. I'm sure there are lots of events that are= =20 defined by their end date, not their duration. E.g. if you need to catch th= e=20 train every morning, and you enter your sleeping time as a recurring event = in=20 your calendar (because during that time you want your f/b list to show you = as=20 busy, or for some other reason).=20 > In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so > would DURATION be sufficient? Yes, that's a good argument. I also had a long discussion over this with He= lge=20 Hess (from OpenGroupware.org). As long as no recurrences are involved, DTSTART and DURATION is the right=20 solution in our eyes. In particular, if you move an event, you only have to= =20 adjust the DTSTART and the end date will be correct. If you used DTSTART an= d=20 DTEND, you'll have to adjust both if you want to move the event.=20 Additionally, if you just use the same offset to the DTSTART and the DTEND,= =20 you'll again run into the same problems when the time zone shift appears=20 between these two times... I think it's really best to have DTSTART+DURATION in iCal-Basic, and in=20 iCal-Extended we need to allow DTSTART+DTEND (since it makes a difference=20 with recurring event).=20 Cheers, Reinhold =2D-=20 =2D----------------------------------------------------------------- Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna, Austria email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org/, KOrganizer / KPilot maintain= er --nextPart9794832.JYhHsSTT6x Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4IGiTqjEwhXvPN0RAiaQAJ9u48Syd5iW2M6YglgJdx26z1/JigCeOcIi ECa9It2M54escZwGmoIAI2c= =FPGZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart9794832.JYhHsSTT6x-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j08Mkeaa018314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:46:41 -0800 Received: from Royer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j08MkZeW011386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:46:36 -0800 Message-ID: <41E062CB.10609@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:46:35 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> In-Reply-To: <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060809090908040503010208" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:46:43 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060809090908040503010208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are two effects - I agree. Does anyone really need the first one (#1 below)? Or did they really want a DURATION ? Having worked 3rd shift in he past, I still only worked 8 hours, no more, no less. Do people have their 3rd shift work one hour shorter/longer? I'll bet they still work DTSTART + DURATION and just make sure everyone knows what time the clock will say at the end. In addition - iCal-Basic does not have recurring rules, so would DURATION be sufficient? Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 18:39 schrieb Doug Royer: > >>I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION >>and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying >>to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? >> >> DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) >>or >> DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) > > > There's a small difference between these two. They are identical most of the > time, except for those two times a year when DST switches occur. If you have > a recurring event that falls on these switch times, you can easily see the > difference: > > 1) You have nightshifts from 22:00 until 06:00 every day, so when the DST > switch happens, your nightshift will be one hour longer/shorter than the > usual 8 hours. => DTSTART and DTEND needed > > 2) On the other hand, if you need to operate a machine or some other > mechanical process for, say, 15 hours over night, then the date end needs to > differ for the night when the DST switch occurs. => DTSTART and DURATION > needed > > Cheers, > Reinhold > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-calsify mailing list > Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org > http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | 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X-Envelope-From: reinhold@kainhofer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.51.99]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j08IScaa014767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:28:40 -0800 Received: from ip6-localhost (doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at [127.0.0.1]) by doob.fam.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.2/8.13.2/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j08ISaS6002575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:28:37 +0100 From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com> Organization: Vienna University of Technology To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:28:27 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.91 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1746318.8LJWONkWeH"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200501081928.31046.reinhold@kainhofer.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:28:45 -0000 --nextPart1746318.8LJWONkWeH Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Am Samstag, 8. Januar 2005 18:39 schrieb Doug Royer: > I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION > and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying > to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? > > DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) > or > DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) There's a small difference between these two. They are identical most of th= e=20 time, except for those two times a year when DST switches occur. If you hav= e=20 a recurring event that falls on these switch times, you can easily see the= =20 difference: 1) You have nightshifts from 22:00 until 06:00 every day, so when the DST=20 switch happens, your nightshift will be one hour longer/shorter than the=20 usual 8 hours. =3D> DTSTART and DTEND needed 2) On the other hand, if you need to operate a machine or some other=20 mechanical process for, say, 15 hours over night, then the date end needs t= o=20 differ for the night when the DST switch occurs. =3D> DTSTART and DURATION= =20 needed Cheers, Reinhold --nextPart1746318.8LJWONkWeH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4CZOTqjEwhXvPN0RAlORAKC1XqB+5LhMDHP1oW9/Fi3t6+00qgCg3T/E CuFBPgnDQe7e4VP5/fItAsw= =LOrG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1746318.8LJWONkWeH-- X-Envelope-From: Doug@Royer.com X-Envelope-To: <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j08HdAaa025347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:39:11 -0800 Received: from Royer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id j08Hd3eW007803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:39:05 -0800 Message-ID: <41E01AB6.3020905@Royer.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:39:02 -0700 From: Doug Royer <Doug@Royer.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 References: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> In-Reply-To: <41D36722.6040505@Royer.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090007060100090304020706" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 127.0.0.1 X-BeenThere: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org List-Id: ietf-calsify.osafoundation.org List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify> List-Post: <mailto:ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify>, <mailto:ietf-calsify-request@osafoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:39:15 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090007060100090304020706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that there was a large debate on having both DURATION and DTEND years ago that resulted in 2445. Now that we are trying to simplify down to the basics. Can we pick just one? DTSTART and optionally DURATION (no DTEND in spec) or DTSTART and optionally DTEND. (no DURATION in spec) This is an data format for exchanging calendar information, it has nothing to do with how any implementation stores the data. Is the reason that both existed because the WG could not decide? Or was there another reason? -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)612-4638 http://Royer.com | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms090007060100090304020706 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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- [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 Doug Royer
- [Ietf-calsify] iCal-Basic - draft 00 Doug Royer