Re: [Cbor] An Information-based CBOR schema language?

David Kemp <dk190a@gmail.com> Wed, 21 August 2019 16:59 UTC

Return-Path: <dk190a@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017E3120BFB for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.998
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rl4h5muIbIek for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0951C1201DC for <cbor@ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id q8so1847198oij.5 for <cbor@ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KucKwCUyzlMobxetfPaQX35d/cxK8kDkWKYS7L3dxxc=; b=TzSL11bplL7JKHnngFdjWbGEsGX1p1ck+E4zmQALhM8aJ0u/M6g/dLBem3yGdfLIVB +OaajUvYonmY1MvAJMrPYF3iMbx68ODCI6ajti/DXMXe3JTU/vWLQtEV7SXcbp+SVzf8 ib3SlzBK74hjscgEYYdvghJj3NhSoegEvElVwrlByYyuB1gdMhhjAHd1+JfLimpa2pkY ulGveeL2LFCsroAlAbVDpznUal2qwony128bjKQvh2Ks1okhNizI/BLEL2vXiWp1xWhG yPIyqCsxW0EeT1PcllQFdaepJjuMUY5Wy6Nh7ThB8Y99YsdlYImTg1faXPlwcvVhZXXe jPmg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KucKwCUyzlMobxetfPaQX35d/cxK8kDkWKYS7L3dxxc=; b=tuKeQWIiGzk6JZaSKDDZlZ83UkmrSR7+gQ9SENb0shOf6OY5CgBT1TCXC690QJwewl +uvjPZZOcJ6a8OX1ZBFNYEmj1LCqSeqHQmbnK22pEeBSHzgXQsJyxvPwS10m1Nh4Ffim E4qmSkMyICaXYg681da/5By/MxmciFa4ZTcyqid5e16buvixAikhXs+XHa5QhttI59c8 1yUhQj7qjZoubqTO1MbAtfLW5ofls9AVN8cTrs6rlDpdnKoPqcAuCa9pO8Z/+Xkaj8kh 0Mn6/VAA1AyqAw3ZouNke0CeFi/0T6k6ovkRlyvB8uaZa2YcNjvi28XIxlhjh+IAmY0i VITw==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVKOZ7DceleJvy1/wowtdWGkqPOzWp1v3gtDAPzlLniYBC2bLZy /uabLUyJZe1fBFr82VzL/mTRXkVpMKS1ODR2S3Q=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTqLvaK9YjbLcR1shNjDAIy38cpY/N/RK2xv0oKNUBgIyPotWszQXjf+xqyHwuaCRoluNyHNWvBXNnntXMVyQ=
X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec81:: with SMTP id k123mr717706oih.123.1566406785242; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:45 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAE5tNmpeZh6UA0Uz6QBJNZ4HwmAyyh_2ZvQTZTUBTRYonEwrgA@mail.gmail.com> <099E6A89-2930-451F-A380-FE969826A434@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <099E6A89-2930-451F-A380-FE969826A434@tzi.org>
From: David Kemp <dk190a@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:57:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CAE5tNmp5q48YjYYDRz-LbQUD72f9FtYXSQBJiQBO2UDi5Fh3GQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: cbor@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000021a300590a380c7"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cbor/o3ZtFKpntEgP_tJqr0hlcWGgqqQ>
Subject: Re: [Cbor] An Information-based CBOR schema language?
X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" <cbor.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/cbor>, <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cbor/>
List-Post: <mailto:cbor@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor>, <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:59:48 -0000

>
> Hi Carsten,
>

Thank you for the information and kind words; I look forward to learning
about cddl-freezer.  A script to translate JADN to JSON Schema is
surprisingly brief, about 300 lines of Python, because JSON Schema is
JSON.  I shied away from doing the same for CDDL because of the many
inconveniences of working with text, but using freezer format should make
the job much easier.

> Since the boundary between information and data models is not strict ...

Unfortunately the English language is ambiguous and easily overloaded.
Fortunately Shannon provides a more rigorous definition of information than
Webster:

"My greatest concern was what to call it. I thought of calling it
> 'information,' but the word was overly used, so I decided to call it
> 'uncertainty.' When I discussed it with John von Neumann, he had a better
> idea. Von Neumann told me, 'You should call it entropy, for two reasons. In
> the first place your uncertainty function has been used in statistical
> mechanics under that name, so it already has a name. In the second place,
> and more important, no one really knows what entropy really is, so in a
> debate you will always have the advantage.'"


There may be a large gray area between information models and data models,
but there is a sharp dividing line between information and data: RFC 791
defines the information in an IPv4 address - a network with 2^32
addressable hosts can be addressed using no more than 32 bits of
information regardless of how many bits of data are used for that purpose.
JADN is more than an "Information Model" language in Webster's sense, it is
a "Model of Information" language in the Shannon sense.   I believe
modeling Shannon information is the critical key to addressing:

>  Having a single model that maps to both idiomatic JSON and concise
CBOR.

Respectfully,
Dave