Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT
Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl> Sat, 31 March 2007 21:34 UTC
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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:23:40 +0200
From: Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
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To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT
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Hello Adrian, You wondered: > Huub, Kam, > > Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? > > Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should > get it? Since you already know that both Q14 and Q11 are involved you may as well direct the liaison to both questions. Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:26:59 +0000 Message-ID: <460ED15C.9040404@chello.nl> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:23:40 +0200 From: Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> CC: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adrian, You wondered: > Huub, Kam, > > Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? > > Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should > get it? Since you already know that both Q14 and Q11 are involved you may as well direct the liaison to both questions. Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:13:01 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>, Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Dave Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Scott Bradner <sob@harvard.edu>, CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com> From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Subject: New Liaison Statement, "New CCAMP RFCs Published" Reply-To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Message-Id: <E1HXLYU-00054A-MM@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:10:30 -0400 Title: New CCAMP RFCs Published Submission Date: 2007-03-30 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=310 From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: ITU-T SG15(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>) Cc: Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com> Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com> Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> Dave Ward <dward@cisco.com> Scott Bradner <sob@harvard.edu> CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com> Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com> Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com> Purpose: For information Body: The CCAMP working group of the IETF would like to inform you of the publication of three new RFCs (Request for Comment) that may be relevant to your work. RFC 4801 Title Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Abstract This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS- related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. RFC 4802 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. RFC 4803 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). All IETF RFCs can be downloaded for free from http://www.ietf.org/rfc.html The current work plan and progress status of the CCAMP working group can be viewed at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ccamp-charter.html As always, the CCAMP working group welcomes questions and discussion about all of its work from individuals or organisations. The CCAMP mailing list is open to anyone. Details of subscription can be found on the CCAMP charter page. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Attachment(s): No document has been attached Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:38:57 +0000 Message-ID: <0fe601c77252$cb85d960$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:36:30 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I think we may have reached closure on the security issues with the Call I-D. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu> To: <iesg@ietf.org> Cc: <ccamp-chairs@tools.ietf.org> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call > Discuss: > [This discuss does actually have its roots in my previous discuss. I > realize it is not obvious. There have been a lot of side discussions] > > One use case of the call concept raises security concerns. In > particular, calls are being proposed so that you can authenticate to a > call server using an end-to-end notify, get some policy goop and that > goop can be used for policy decisions like whether to accept your > call. The problem is that this creates a situation where new security > associtaions are required that for the most part typically do not come > up in RSVP today even though end-to-end notify is already supported. > That triggers RFC 4107 analysis and a very high probability that > mandatory automated key management is required. We don't want to > block this document on that. > > > I propose the following: > > old: > Note, additionally, that the process of independent Call > establishment, where the Call is set up separately from the LSPs, may > be used to apply an extra level of authentication and policy for the > end-to-end LSPs above that which is available with Call-less, > hop-by-hop LSP setup. > > new: Note, additionally, that it would be desirable to use the process > of independent Call establishment, where the Call is set up > separately from the LSPs, to apply an extra level of authentication > and policy for the end-to-end LSPs above that which is available > with Call-less, hop-by-hop LSP setup. However doing so will > require additional work to set up security associations between the > peer and the call manager that meet the requirements of RFC 4107. > The mechanism described in this document is expected to meet this > use case when combined with this additional work. Application of > this mechanism to the authentication and policy use case prior to > standardization of a security solution is inappropriate and outside > the current applicability of the mechanism. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:44:44 +0000 Message-ID: <0f3d01c77219$0606db50$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>, "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu> Subject: Another draft liaison to SG15: Call/Connection Separation Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:53:41 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, A small liaison just to close down on a technical point. Comments by end of Tuesday 3rd April, please. Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Ross Callon; Dave Ward; Scott Bradner Subject: Call/Connection Separation in ASON and GMPLS For Comment Deadline: 11th May 2007 The CCAMP working group of the IETF thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" (Q14/15 - LS 1 - E) dated March 2007. This liaison continues a discussion on the logical separation of calls and connections. The substance of this conversation is as follows: SG15 to CCAMP COM 15 - LS 126 - E dated November 2006 1. Call/Connection architecture and realization approaches Attachment 2 below provides further elaboration of application scenarios that illustrate G.8080 call/connection control component interactions. The G.8080 architecture may be employed to support various call control realization approaches. It should be noted that the architecture does not dictate any particular implementation and we would request that any solution not impose such limitations. We observe that Section 3.2 of <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-01.txt> explicitly prohibits logical call/connection control separation; i.e., call communications "piggy-backing" on connection communications. CCAMP to SG15 Dated 21st February 2007 Regarding your comments on 2.0 It is important to recognize that [this draft] introduces Call mechanisms into GMPLS as a generic tool. As noted in Section 2, while the mechanisms of this document meet the requirements in RFC 4139, they are intended to have wider applicability than ASON. RFC 4139 details the requirements for ASON. The application of the GMPLS Call to the ASON architecture in order to satisfy the requirements for conveying ASON Call information across a GMPLS interface and for managing ASON Calls at a GMPLS UNI or GMPLS ENNI will require a new Applicability Draft. Thus, section 3.2 of this document does not imply anything about ASON, and certainly not that ASON requires full and logical call/connection separation. We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct. SG15 to CCAMP Q14/15-LS1-E dated March 2007 Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: "We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct." ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. We would like to complete this discussion by reiterating that draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt defines mechanisms that provide full and logical Call/Connection separation. Your initial interpretation of section 3.2 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-01.txt was incorrect and the text states now (and stated then) that "Full and logical Call and Connection separation is required." If you have any further concerns about how call and connection separation is achieved in this work, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP working group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:50:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0eef01c77211$1b034c80$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <hhelvoort@chello.nl>, "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:46:09 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Huub, Kam, Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should get it? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: <hhelvoort@chello.nl> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>; "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu>; "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>; "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:40:21 +0000 Message-ID: <0eab01c771f6$f7e10040$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <hhelvoort@chello.nl>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:39:36 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Huub, I will make changes accordingly. A ----- Original Message ----- From: <hhelvoort@chello.nl> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>; "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu>; "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>; "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:34:33 +0000 Message-ID: <0e5101c771f5$bf431800$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>, "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu> Subject: Draft liaison to ITU SG15 on process Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:21:43 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One of the larger issues raised by a recent liaison from ITU-T Study Group 15 is on process and how we can continue to build a better relationship between SG15 and CCAMP. Here is a draft response. Comments please by end of April 5th. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Yoichi Maeda, Stephen Trowbridge, Kam Lam, Scott Bradner, Ross Callon, Dave Ward For Action Deadline: 25th June 2007 Subject: Cooperative Relationship between ITU-T SG15 and CCAMP CCAMP thanks you for your liaison entitled "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007". The last paragraphs of your liaison discuss the cooperative relationship between ITU-T SG15 and the IETF's CCAMP working group and we would like to respond to these issues separate from the technical discussions. Over the last few years we have seen an increase in cooperation between our organisations, and we believe that this is to the considerable benefit of the industry. CCAMP has regularly sent a liaison representative to ITU plenary and interim meetings, and useful comments and feedback have been received from these meetings as a result of review of IETF Internet-Drafts in progress. Additionally, Mr. Lyndon Ong has been allocated a regular slot on the CCAMP meeting agenda at each IETF meeting to update the working group on the progress of the ITU-T in areas of interest to CCAMP. While we consider that the free flow of information and the review feedback on CCAMP work to be very valuable, we are also conscious that the mechanisms of the ITU-T and IETF are very different. Therefore we make every attempt to avoid wasting your precious meeting time, and only ask for review when we consider the material to be stable and pertinent. In your liaison, you say: ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. We appreciate your engagement with this process and we believe that it is to the best interests of the industry and to all participants in both bodies. In order to crystallise this process, the IETF has recently published RFC 4775 ("Procedures for Protocol Extensions and Variations") and has just consented for publication draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change-08.txt ("Change Process for Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Protocols and Procedures"). The net effect of these documents is to give the ITU-T clear access into the IETF process and to commit the IETF to work with the ITU-T to develop solutions to requirements that originate in the ITU-T. You state further: However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We agree that there is always room for improvements on both sides. Some issues will arise from differences in established behaviour within the two bodies, and we are always grateful when you point out opportunities to improve the mechanisms that we have in place. Although neither the ITU-T nor the IETF is likely to make a major change to its operational procedures, there are doubtless very many small areas where improvements could be made. One such area of improvement might be to relax the communication style and mechanisms allowing a more free and rapid exchange of technical opinions amongst the participants. Although this cannot replace the liaison relationship as a means for exchanging the official and consented views of each body, we could gain a lot from increasing the level of discussion rather than relying on the relatively infrequent use of liaison statements. We would welcome your suggestions on how to achieve this - the CCAMP mailing list remains open and might be a suitable vehicle for this type of communication. As you go on to say: We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. We understand the points you make. Nevertheless, we would like to continue to encourage individual participation. Individuals who are interested in the development rather than the review of protocol solutions would be well advised to bring their ideas to CCAMP early in the process. In the same way, we would advise individuals interested in the work of the ITU-T to become involved there and not to wait for the opportunity to review the material when it is liaised to the IETF as it nears completion. You cite a specific area for improvement in your liaison, and we are grateful for your attempt to isolate specifics since it is far more easy to learn from examples than from general statements. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. We are disturbed by your identification of these specific concerns at this time in our communication. Due to the time that has lapsed since the events that you mention, it is hard to provide appropriate and definitive discussion. We believe that the discussion of RFC 4258 and lack of response refers to a liaison received from SG15 in February 2004. Although the issues received full discussion on an open mailing list and included comments from no fewer than seven regular Q14/15 participants, and although the design team that produced the final text of the RFC included Q14/15 participants who could have reported the agreement and rationale back to Q14/15, we agree that it would have been helpful to liaise the outcome of these discussions to you direct. In a subsequent liaison (COM15-LS18) in April 2004, where you stated: Q.14/15 would like to thank the IETF CCAMP WG and especially the members of the ASON Routing Requirements Design Team for their efforts to understand and capture ASON Routing Requirements for the future work in IETF. Q.14/15 would like to continue cooperative work with IETF, extending this to the application of routing protocols to support the ASON requirements. We interpreted these sentences to mean that you were aware of the completion of RFC4258 and that you were satisfied with the results. Review of the material that led to RFC 4652 was first liaised to CCAMP by SG15 in May 2005 (COM 15-LS57-E) in response to a request for review issued by CCAMP earlier that same month. The liaison from SG15 was marked "For Information" and our understanding of this label (as noted in section 2.2.1.1.6 of RFC 4053) is that "The liaison statement is to inform the addressee of something, and expects no response." In the light of the current situation it would have been wise for the chairs to have confirmed that this was really the intended purpose of the liaison, but we should note that 50% of the author team for RFC 4652 were regular Q14/15 attendees who could have reported the status and decisions (albeit informally) to the Question. Subsequent liaisons on the material of RFC 4652 included: November 2005 (Q12-14 Interim meeting-LS006-E) "Q.14/15 ... strongly supports CCAMP's continued work to address ASON requirements in the routing protocols." Your recent liaison concludes: ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. While we cannot promise to send every piece of work that is potentially applicable to ASON, we can and will liaise all work where there is a definitive intention of applicability to ASON. CCAMP continues to be grateful to SG15 for its efforts to ensure that the ASON architecture and requirements are correctly interpreted, and appreciates that this will lead to protocol solutions that are of value to the industry. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:34:25 +0000 Message-ID: <0e5301c771f5$c1cb97a0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <Ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>, "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu> Subject: Update: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:27:17 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone more awake than I has noticed that a liaison from SG15 in February 2004 appeared to say that MLN was not of interest to ASON. Although things have probably moved on since then, we should check to find out the current situation. So the draft changes as follows... To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. We note that in a liaison dated February 2004 discussing the signaling requirements for ASON and reviewing draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-reqts-05.txt you said: 11. G.8080 defines the ASON control plane as applying to a single layer. Some examples in the draft involve multiple layers. While not precluded by implementations, a suggested replacement example is contained in the marked up copy that is single layer. Could you please confirm your current view of the definition of the ASON control plane in G.8080. Does the ASON control plane now apply to more than one layer? Could you please provide references to the appropriate sections of your Recommendations. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:39:02 +0000 Message-ID: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 7:37:34 +0000 From: <hhelvoort@chello.nl> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Cc: Scott Bradner <sob@harvard.edu>, Dave Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sensitivity: Normal Hello Adrian, I agree with what you propose, apart from a small editorial change, see in-line [hvh] Cheers, Huub. ------------------------------ > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN VCAT in G.709. G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not necessary to repeat the typo) > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:26:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:24:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT From: Monique Morrow <mmorrow@cisco.com> To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Dave Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Scott Bradner <sob@harvard.edu> Message-ID: <C230D3E3.406FB%mmorrow@cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Thread-Index: AcdxyutlKeDJ9d2+EduENQANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1775; t=1175149476; x=1176013476; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20<mmorrow@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG=2015=20=3A=20VCAT |Sender:=20; bh=pIRX/5N3dA6+MWGi9vmGFlz5Vb7O3OIvqM/S3rFPXwU=; b=G2Ttjr77rRynzodpuGeLyKqMuNKPlCJNZi45KV6wCvZWeQZz5YdMHn4z1Ls7OsjEjKV+w3Jf ydGJrWDSGis8FGpqHTCY83luWsHrmfGSbe30ZxS1ox324mbMzNuBJiDS; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Looks fine - thanks again! /m On 28/3/07 3:26 pm, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:25:57 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:23:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work From: Monique Morrow <mmorrow@cisco.com> To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <Ccamp@ops.ietf.org> CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Dave Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Scott Bradner <sob@harvard.edu> Message-ID: <C230D3B4.406FA%mmorrow@cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Thread-Index: Acdxys9iDfA8Nt2+EduENQANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1964; t=1175149430; x=1176013430; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20<mmorrow@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG15=20=3A=20MLN=20wor k |Sender:=20; bh=RXwKsF4p0LBMhiXMEnXpbkHC5GknMxiqphBm6bUdKB8=; b=EaO4U0n16D5xj3fC0IFUdBu2az/l+MM7FhRn6eEPu9/u6qZViWH2n4Cxn+oHnujDvOHrKhvY XEaCS4kWwRMsZp0Hgq8jhKeekXPsm0q8pEnE7Lbs32BxhysiRqJUghLI; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Looks ok Adrian! /m On 28/3/07 3:22 pm, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. > > Please comment by end of business 3rd April. > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > ==== > To: ITU-T SG15 > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP > For Action > Deadline: 18th May 2007 > > The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer > Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP > responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. > > We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and > our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you > review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or > before the deadline marked above. > > The requirements work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt > The protocol evaluation is at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt > > In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to > understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use > some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. > > The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to > fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An > individual submission on this subject may be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extens > ions-03.txt, > but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept > this as the basis for the work. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:54:05 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779" Subject: Draft minutes - Session II Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE4F342@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Draft minutes - Session II Thread-Index: Acdxcqx8wpWu6N5DTrymWL2znGo4cw== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g. liaisons). =20 Thanks, Deborah and Adrian =20 -------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eight IETF, Prague, March 2007 Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session II =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, Tomonori Takeda =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5, 5/120] Slides =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Agenda agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30, 35/120] Slides Background reading - draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt - draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Don - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft. Tracking IEEE work on data plane. Project will be approved imminently in IEEE. Done in appendix as data plane is IEEE-defined. IETF just defining how to use GMPLS for control. Loa - Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. Not just doc of an experimental implentation (not impl. this version yet). Use GMPLS for "all" modes of connection types (where "all" is P2P - not using yet for P2MP though have soln). Variance with Fedyk is have more than one label type. Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE data plane. IEEE doing 802.1Qay. IEEE projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will be rolled up into Q spec. Loa - Acreo did 802.1Q-based implementation. Describes certain conditions that we operate under. Works for 802.1Q. Don - trying to define superset that will work for other defined switching paradigms. Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and then "Configured Ethernet Bridging" where STP is removed and configure connections instead. So now have data plane and management plane. Finally GELS - where GMPLS is used to add back the missing control plane... Loa - I looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until I slept on it! Don - there is a std for partitioning the VLAN space as part of existing project on shortest path bridging... So will be an official way to do it. Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle" diagrams. Issue is we have some 802.1 impacts. Cross-correlation in terms of what you can do even if you segment the VLAN space. That will be the major points in terms of getting this accepted by IEEE. Loa - yes, agree is important to record interactions. But what has happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a problem and tell the IEEE guys they tell me there's an ongoing project that will fix the problem... that also needs to be part of documentation... Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is part of an IEEE project... Don - back to GELS motives. Dave Allen has draft on PW interworking with PBT. Loa - we have draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of L2 Ethernet and optical L1. Takes about an hour to learn to configure all 3 layers. If you want to run different layers in "augmented" mode where can request services from lower layers you have good automatic support here with GMPLS. Don - We separated components so could e.g. use management plane with signalling. So limited IP control plane for signalling. Loa - need to be careful not to get packet forwarding through the control plane! Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link management. So can leverage AB and use LMP. Stewart - did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the data plane"? Loa - no the reverse. Stewart - well we mix the two all the time in the IP world Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to handle data plane traffic. If you don't get costs on links you'll advertise the CP links into the data plane. Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic down control " channel", not control "plane" Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is out-of-band, MPLS is in-band CP. Zafar - how do you solve this? In GMPLS we normally have completely separated CP network and data network. So no way data can get into control network. Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely different". Is totally separated in that no other IP connectivity between Ethernet LSRS than control plane but rides on same wavelengths etc. Adrian - could use one fibre for control and one for data? Alternative seems to be to implement the LSRs correctly so they don't forward data on control channel. Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + inexperience setting up IP networks. Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility as to how to route the IP traffic. Not been work in CCAMP since inception. Something unintelligable... Loa - model we used for other data planes works quite well... Don - GELS axioms. Some discussion on list on asymmetric b/w reservation. Idea is to fully exploit what Ethernet data plane can do - hence choice of VID configuration or VID+MAC configuration... Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE. Not speaking about labels in IEEE? Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in IEEE. Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging. Are we forward looking about what IEEE will do? Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, partly because is not an official project yet. Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say we've started on a CP to control this sort of switching and they say "no", then we'll stop. Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it mean this sort of config is acceptable for bridging. Loa - yes you can do this from a management station. Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers. It was only in IETF that we talked about ATM labels. Dimitri - we know PBB is operating. We don't know about PBB-TE at this point. Would like more info on how their initial framework is detailed. Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we won't alter the semantics of MAC addresses. Don - pretty far along. Point is taken that we're not defining a data plane here but are using a defined one. Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work. Will be amendments to .1Q. If we expect something new to turn up we have to consider that now. But according to IEEE credo all new standards will be backwards-compatible. Dimitri - are we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to make these steps now? Don - yes. Don - (Types of LSPs). Been looking at P2P and P2MP in our draft. Loa can talk to the other aspects. Terminology differences. Loa - there is shared forwarding in .1Q. Rely on source address to have an identity that is extended to exactly where things are going. In our mindset we drop the source address (not sure is right thing to do). So then have a MP2P LSP. Is largely overlapping with what Don talks about as P2P. We have done experiments on MP2MP LSP. Standard IEEE VLAN. Same VLAN configured on multiple ports and turn on learning/STP etc. once set up. But basically a standard VLAN. Possible to configure it pretty quickly with scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day). Igor - my understanding of PBB is single source. Loa - not implemented PBT. What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of deltas we find in most switches. Igor - so don't require single source for the connection... Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to an LSP. George - When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider Bridges? Are you doing QinQ? Loa - no. Just using one Q tag. Though the next step is QinQ. Behaves the same way as the start of an MPLS tunnel. Set it up and put traffic in. Kireeti - what signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP LSPs? Signalling or provisioning? Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up with a script - mgmt plane). Kireeti - so what signalling do you use for MP2P? Do you swap VLANs? Loa - no, same VLAN through LSP. That's one of the differences with what we did earlier. Don - changes we need in Gen label request for Ethernet. Dimitri - Quesiton on MP2P techniques. Is Loa's implemantation compatible with Don's? Loa - need to compare and clarify. We can do P2P with MAC and dest addr and then allow or not allow merging. Need to sort out terminology for shared forwarding. Don - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding. Two independent LSPs that share the same label at the merge point. No difference signalling-wise if they don't share the label. Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is multiple P2P LSPs that happen to share the last few hops. Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same destination. Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs sharing same tail-end label. George - do all sources use same dest address? And how do you avoid paths that criss-cross? Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing protocol. Once you merge you merge. George - so not sending explicit path in RSVP message. Loa - send explicit path to merge point, but once resolve is same as an existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that you can't do it. Adrian - George and I need to work on this. MP2P-TE needs to be solved in a generalised way for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS. George - this sounds a little non-standard as compared to what RSVP-TE does at the moment. Loa - I admit to that. George - so you have full ERO and then if you hit a merge point and merge is allowed then you merge? Loa - yes. And don't have b/w reservations. If TSPEC is the same can merge. Don - shared forwarding is a limited version of merging. No merging of b/w etc. More definition required around this term in the documentation. Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE in an LDP fashion. We admit this is not standard. We are building our experimental platform. If what we do is good then fine, of not will change it... Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not changes. Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting point. Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is applicable: 1) PBB net with edge and core bridges offering a native Ethernet VLAN over the top. Looks like VPLS but is all native Ethernet. 2) case like a PW for aggregation. Loa - my comparible picture shows network from "above" and "the side". Yellow part is GELS. So have MPLS over GELS over X? X !=3D = optical switches in this testbed. Igor - you said GELS could help for optical networks. Loa - was a bit more careful than that. When we get people into our network we want to do test incorporation. Want to help people understand the idea. The operational paradigms of the layers are very close. If you want inter-layer signalling that works over UNI. Igor - so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration. Loa - yes, helps operational side at least. Igor - so people need to learn less? If familiar with optical CP can learn Ethernet CP? Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork configured Ethernet with MPLS. What did you mean? I read it as it helps by removing MPLS. Is that correct? Don - is interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network. Igor - I don't see MPLS here. Don - is in the WAN. Dimitri - Where does the LSP start and finish in these diagrams? Is it an S-PVC mode or an SVC mode. Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet I/F of the IP router. Optical LSP starts on Optical interface of Ethenret switch. Dimitri - is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE? Don - in this case would have a PW that could be terminated or stitched. You can always choose to terminate and then ? Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI deployments today. Do we gain something by only having a switched mode that goes router to router, or do we need a mode that goes edge to edge. So from ingress PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the IP routers (S-PVC mode rather than SVC mode). When I look at usage of GMPLS we may need to consider both modes. Adrian - don't see anything in protocol that prohibits either mode. If something shows up then should flag it as we need to keep both modes available. Dimitri - asking other way round. If we only have switched mode then can only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to do it. I'm stating about our experience of deployment... That's a concern. Let's look at today's access nodes... Loa - I've kind of lost the Q? I suggest you write the Q down and put it on the list... Don - we don't need to add that much to GMPLS. Next step is to add a milestone for WG charter for experimental GELS spec (Loa's suggestion). Add milestone to develop a spec for GELS signalling/routing (combined suggestion). Adrian - at all future meets GELS will be at end of agenda and you can carry on in your own time. Think we're premature for milestone requests. Both of you can continue experimental work, but doesn't come into WG quite yet. Rules still apply as to how to bring stuff into WG. Consider yourselves lucky that you were allowed to present this. Rules say that if you believe you have an IEEE-conformant data plane then we liase to IEEE and say that we wish to control it, is that ok? Loa - brought 802.1Q. Adrian - just say "please" ;-) let's talk offline, I need to understand the dataplane we're liasing a request about... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120] Slides Background reading - draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Zafar went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a WG I-D. Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request. Lou - Why is it different from other p-to-p link between routers? Zafar - This is ethernet, so need ARP. Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is your solution applicable to those spaces? Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical address, this is what you see in GMPLS. Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router vendors? Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. The second point is that we typically don't use two addresses. Lou - The first point is just unnumbered ethernet, and some vendors don't understand it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue. Zafar - Why? We are using signaling. Lou - That is the second problem. Lou - The second problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just a broken implementation. Zafar - It is unclear implementation. Lou - What category do you intend for this I-D? Zafar - BCP. Igor - Where does the optical LSP start and end? Zafar - Between routers. Igor - Where is the ethernet connection? Zafar - It is also netween routers Igor - What type of connection? Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over optical LSP, so need to be sure whether we want to say framing etc. Deborah - Good discussion. Igor raised a good question - is the connection optical or ethernet. Take it to the list. Adrian - (To Zafar) Please drive the discussion so we get progress before the next IETF. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS TE (Mach Chen) [10, 55/120] Slides Background reading - draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mach went over the slides, explaining motivations and protocol extensions. Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery in L1VPN. Encourage you to look at L1VPN WG. JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify in which case you may need it. Can you also make sure you do a cut and paste of the "not to do" slide into the draft. The draft is fine. Want to make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do to prevent people coming up with silly ideas. Are you writing down in the document that not doing TE aggregation? Mach - Yes. Acee - Could you replace extensions to OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE? Add OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable to both, but need to define if that is the case. Also not sure I agree that it should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery. Stewart Bryant - The reason for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info hiding. Can we make sure that you are not feeding private information? Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't share TE info outside AS? Stewart- Yes, but need to be v. strict... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements (Attila) [10, 65/120] Slides Background reading - draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Attila went over the slides explaining motivations, options for achieving this, and futher works. Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to follow the same route? Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do that for management and a couple of other issues. Zafar - think Q is back to requirements of draft. I think you need to spell out more on the application why you need same path. Julien - I agree that co-routed asymmetrical services is needed. But you may have missed possible scenario where you could associate bidirectional LSP at ingress. Lou - I think Zafar has a good point. Before we jump into implementation need to say that this is a needed service and that what we have today is not sufficient. We did bidirectional symmetric service because the transport network needed it. if we don't have such a transport network then what we have here may be sufficient. Attila - this extension is an optional optimisation. Not a requirement Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's useful and what the benefit is. Rowen Soloman - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing low level config of egress traffic management is complex. but want to see a relationship between this new object and CAC funtionality. When do you go to CAC to reserve b/w for the alternate direction? When is error sent if there's insufficient b/w. Attila - this is implementation Q. Rowen - would like to see recommendation. Igor - like to see whether we need such service. If have service that is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might be reasonable. The reason for bidirectional LSP wasn't just driven by technology but also by benefits in setup time and recovery. Much easier to handle one bidirectional LSP than a combination of two LSPs. Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case for this? Need mailing list discussion. Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an application. Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP about? Lucy - Discuss offline. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, 75/120] Slides Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dan went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol extensions Adrian - We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on this draft. Who in the room read this? -> 5 Any strong feeling against? None, but... Zafar - Raised some concern Dan - Have you read this I-D? Zafar - Some comments. Personally not sure about requirements. Not sure if the group has enough interest to solve this problem. Adrian- we do have to be sure we're solving a problem that needs solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean they intend to implement and deploy. Would like feedback from carriers as to whether this is a real problem and whether they'd look to LMP to solve it. Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real problem. Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to solve. This may be specific to transmission devices. Not really issue for packet networks. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS Networks (Guoying Zhang) [10, 85/120] Slides Background reading - draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Guoying went over the slides, explaining motivations and open issues. Adrian - is this project alive, or complete? Is the draft + the research finished? Guoying - project is still going. Want to do work on e.g. multipoint LSPs and rerouting. Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, also what else the group would like measured? Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is useful. Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on list. Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - why graceful, or why release? Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - release delay is important as both setup and release impact the application performance. if release is not good then won't meet requirements. So need to define performance for release. Only looking at graceful release here as forced release will cause problems anyway... Lucy - when you talk about control plane management, is that just signalling or also data plane setup? Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues with control/data sync. hard to measure the sync. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services (Lucy Yong) [10, 95/120] Slides Background reading - draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Lucy went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the group whether this is interesting. Dimitri - what shall we standardise here? Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle reservation. Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you using this model? What do we need to standardise here (where we work on protocols)? Adrian - yes, we do protocols. In order to decide if we need a protocol we need to see what architecture we're trying to build. If we can solve the architecture with existing protocols then we're done. If we need new protocol then we need to do it (either in CCAMP or elesewhere). But before we even define the arch we need to answer Lucy's Q of whether this is something we need to solve. Lucy - I don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you do this. Dimitri - what prevents us today from saying we'd establish a connection at a given point in time? Lucy - all three options today don't work. Zafar - can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides. Lucy - your connection request doesn't have a future time in it. Zafar - there are so many ways you could do it. Nothing to do with protocol. Lucy - carriers currently rely on management plane to do it. If we have a CP then how do we combine them? Zafar - local decision? Lucy - A network resource you need to reserve. Signalling doesn't let you know time. Zafar - can take offline... Rowen - you do signalling to future allocate resources? So do you keep full state of future services? Lucy - we can work that out in implementation. Rowen - do you keep states in network for services that aren't running? That's a major scaling issue. Lucy - that's an implementation issue. George - It's a major scaling issue in building a switch. Also issues in terms of recovering stuff in event of failure. Better to leave stuff in the mgmt system and have CP as a slave. Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so don't need to embed this in the nodes George - when pull out of network, it is mgmt plane. Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP. George - PCE isn't part of GMPLS CP. Not suggesting we put this in routing and signalling? E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead of time? Lucy - there are different ways to implement this, not suggesting one here. George - don't think is good idea to put this in the switches. Topology may change between making request and reserving it. So not very useful to embed the info too close to where you're going to deploy it. Lucy - I agree. George - two things need to happen before we consider this. (1) need to hear from SPs that it's a real need. Not many SPs want to keep dark fibre around to light up instantaneously. (2) need to clarify the architecture in terms of what is control and what is management... Gert - we have application like this running for two years. Never had req. from service provider to put anything in the control plane. So doubt if this is useful... Dimitri - I have one question. where shall I put the resource management state. If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio which is better than what we do today then won't do it. There is a temptation to make the control plane have all the features of the management plane - really dangerous as end up with a distributed management plane... Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put mgmt plane in CP. I think I heard Lucy say that too. So we all agreed... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120] - OIF Signaling for MEF Requirements - OIF VLAN ID Requirements - OIF Interworking Cookbook - SG15 Related Slides Background reading - CCAMP incoming correspondence =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dropped from the agenda due to lack of time. Adrian - please look at slides on liaison work. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D335084319-28032007>Here's = the minutes=20 of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, = Julien=20 Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items = or=20 corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g.=20 liaisons).</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D335084319-28032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D335084319-28032007>Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D335084319-28032007>Deborah and=20 Adrian</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D335084319-28032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D335084319-28032007>--------------------------------</SPAN></FONT>= </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D335084319-28032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D335084319-28032007>Sixty-eight IETF,=20 Prague, March 2007<BR><BR>Tuesday, March 20, 2007<BR>1300-1500 Afternoon = Session=20 I<BR>RTG ccamp Common = Control=20 and Measurement Plane WG<BR><BR>CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session=20 II<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 <ADRIAN@OLDDOG.CO.UK><BR> = Deborah=20 Brungard <DBRUNGARD@ATT.COM><BR><BR>Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien = Meuric,=20 Tomonori = Takeda<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>0. Administrivia (chairs) [5,=20 5/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>Agenda=20 agreed.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>1.=20 Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30,=20 35/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background reading<BR> -=20 draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt<BR> -=20 draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>Don=20 - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft. Tracking IEEE work=20 on<BR> data plane. Project will be = approved=20 imminently in IEEE. Done in<BR> = appendix as=20 data plane is IEEE-defined. IETF just defining how=20 to<BR> use GMPLS for control.<BR><BR>Loa - = Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. =20 Not<BR> just doc of an experimental = implentation=20 (not impl. this version<BR> yet). = Use GMPLS=20 for "all" modes of connection types (where=20 "all"<BR> is P2P - not using yet for P2MP = though=20 have soln). Variance with<BR> Fedyk = is have=20 more than one label type.<BR><BR>Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE = data=20 plane. IEEE doing = 802.1Qay.<BR> IEEE=20 projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will=20 be<BR> rolled up into Q spec.<BR><BR>Loa - = Acreo=20 did 802.1Q-based implementation. Describes=20 certain<BR> conditions that we operate=20 under. Works for 802.1Q.<BR><BR>Don - trying to define superset = that will=20 work for other defined<BR> switching=20 paradigms.<BR><BR>Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and = then=20 "Configured<BR> Ethernet Bridging" where = STP is=20 removed and configure connections<BR> = instead. So=20 now have data plane and management plane. =20 Finally<BR> GELS - where GMPLS is used to = add back=20 the missing control<BR> = plane...<BR><BR>Loa - I=20 looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until=20 I<BR> slept on it!<BR><BR>Don - there is a = std for=20 partitioning the VLAN space as part of=20 existing<BR> project on shortest path=20 bridging... So will be an official = way<BR> =20 to do it.<BR><BR>Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle"=20 diagrams. Issue is we=20 have<BR> some = 802.1=20 impacts. Cross-correlation in terms of what=20 you<BR> can do = even if you=20 segment the VLAN space. That will be=20 the<BR> major = points in=20 terms of getting this accepted by IEEE.<BR><BR>Loa - yes, agree is = important to=20 record interactions. But what = has<BR> =20 happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a=20 problem<BR> and tell the IEEE guys they = tell me=20 there's an ongoing project<BR> that will = fix the=20 problem...<BR> that also needs to be part = of=20 documentation...<BR><BR>Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is = part of an=20 IEEE project...<BR><BR>Don - back to GELS motives. Dave Allen has = draft on=20 PW interworking<BR> with PBT.<BR><BR>Loa - = we have=20 draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of=20 L2<BR> Ethernet and optical L1. = Takes about=20 an hour to learn to<BR> configure all 3=20 layers. If you want to run different layers=20 in<BR> "augmented" mode where can request = services=20 from lower layers you<BR> have good = automatic=20 support here with GMPLS.<BR><BR>Don - We separated components so could = e.g. use=20 management plane with<BR> = signalling. So=20 limited IP control plane for signalling.<BR><BR>Loa - need to be careful = not to=20 get packet forwarding through the<BR> = control=20 plane!<BR><BR>Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link = management. So=20 can<BR> leverage AB and use = LMP.<BR><BR>Stewart -=20 did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the=20 data<BR> =20 plane"?<BR><BR>Loa - no the reverse.<BR><BR>Stewart - well we mix the = two all=20 the time in the IP world<BR><BR>Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to = handle data=20 plane traffic. If you<BR> don't get = costs on=20 links you'll advertise the CP links into = the<BR> =20 data plane.<BR><BR>Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic = down=20 control "<BR> channel", = not=20 control "plane"<BR><BR>Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is = out-of-band, MPLS=20 is in-band CP.<BR><BR>Zafar - how do you solve this? In GMPLS we = normally=20 have completely<BR> separated = CP=20 network and data network. So no way data can=20 get<BR> into control=20 network.<BR><BR>Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely=20 different". Is<BR> totally separated = in that=20 no other IP connectivity between<BR> = Ethernet LSRS=20 than control plane but rides on same=20 wavelengths<BR> etc.<BR><BR>Adrian - could = use one=20 fibre for control and one for data? =20 Alternative<BR> seems to = be to=20 implement the LSRs correctly so they=20 don't<BR> forward data = on=20 control channel.<BR><BR>Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + = inexperience setting up<BR> IP=20 networks.<BR><BR>Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility = as to=20 how to<BR> route = the IP=20 traffic. Not been work in CCAMP since=20 inception.<BR> = Something=20 unintelligable...<BR><BR>Loa - model we used for other data planes works = quite=20 well...<BR><BR>Don - GELS axioms. Some discussion on list on = asymmetric=20 b/w<BR> reservation. Idea is to = fully=20 exploit what Ethernet data plane<BR> can = do -=20 hence choice of VID configuration or = VID+MAC<BR> =20 configuration...<BR><BR>Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE. Not = speaking=20 about labels in IEEE?<BR><BR>Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in=20 IEEE.<BR><BR>Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging. Are we = forward=20 looking<BR> about = what=20 IEEE will do?<BR><BR>Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, = partly=20 because is not<BR> an official project=20 yet.<BR><BR>Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say = we've=20 started<BR> on a CP to = control=20 this sort of switching and they say=20 "no",<BR> then we'll=20 stop.<BR><BR>Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it = mean this=20 sort<BR> of config = is=20 acceptable for bridging.<BR><BR>Loa - yes you can do this from a = management=20 station.<BR><BR>Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers. It was = only in=20 IETF that we<BR> talked about ATM=20 labels.<BR><BR>Dimitri - we know PBB is operating. We don't know = about=20 PBB-TE at this<BR> = point.=20 Would like more info on how their initial framework=20 is<BR> =20 detailed.<BR><BR>Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we = won't=20 alter the<BR> semantics of MAC=20 addresses.<BR><BR>Don - pretty far along. Point is taken that = we're not=20 defining a data<BR> plane here but are = using a=20 defined one.<BR><BR>Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work. = Will be=20 amendments to .1Q.<BR> If we expect = something new=20 to turn up we have to consider that<BR> = now. =20 But according to IEEE credo all new standards will=20 be<BR> = backwards-compatible.<BR><BR>Dimitri - are=20 we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to=20 make<BR> these = steps=20 now?<BR><BR>Don - yes.<BR><BR>Don - (Types of LSPs). Been looking = at P2P=20 and P2MP in our draft. Loa<BR> can = talk to=20 the other aspects. Terminology differences.<BR><BR>Loa - there is = shared=20 forwarding in .1Q. Rely on source address to=20 have<BR> an identity that is extended to = exactly=20 where things are going.<BR> In our mindset = we drop=20 the source address (not sure is right = thing<BR> to=20 do). So then have a MP2P LSP. Is largely overlapping=20 with<BR> what Don talks about as = P2P. We=20 have done experiments on MP2MP<BR> = LSP. =20 Standard IEEE VLAN. Same VLAN configured on multiple=20 ports<BR> and turn on learning/STP etc. = once set=20 up. But basically a<BR> standard = VLAN. =20 Possible to configure it pretty quickly = with<BR> =20 scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day).<BR><BR>Igor = - my=20 understanding of PBB is single source.<BR><BR>Loa - not implemented = PBT. =20 What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of<BR> = deltas=20 we find in most switches.<BR><BR>Igor - so don't require single source = for the=20 connection...<BR><BR>Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to = an=20 LSP.<BR><BR>George - When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider=20 Bridges? Are = you<BR> =20 doing QinQ?<BR><BR>Loa - no. Just using one Q tag. Though = the next=20 step is QinQ. Behaves<BR> the same = way as=20 the start of an MPLS tunnel. Set it up and=20 put<BR> traffic in.<BR><BR>Kireeti - what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP=20 LSPs?<BR> = Signalling or=20 provisioning?<BR><BR>Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up = with a=20 script - mgmt<BR> plane).<BR><BR>Kireeti - = so what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P? Do you swap VLANs?<BR><BR>Loa - = no, same=20 VLAN through LSP. That's one of the differences=20 with<BR> what we did earlier.<BR><BR>Don - = changes=20 we need in Gen label request for Ethernet.<BR><BR>Dimitri - Quesiton on = MP2P=20 techniques. Is Loa's=20 implemantation<BR> = compatible with Don's?<BR><BR>Loa - need to compare and clarify. = We can do=20 P2P with MAC and dest addr<BR> and then = allow or=20 not allow merging. Need to sort out=20 terminology<BR> for shared = forwarding.<BR><BR>Don=20 - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding. Two independent LSPs=20 that<BR> share the same label at the merge = point. No difference<BR> = signalling-wise if=20 they don't share the label.<BR><BR>Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is = multiple=20 P2P LSPs that happen=20 to<BR> share the = last few=20 hops.<BR><BR>Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same=20 destination.<BR><BR>Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs = sharing=20 same tail-end<BR> = label.<BR><BR>George - do=20 all sources use same dest address? And how do you=20 avoid<BR> paths that=20 criss-cross?<BR><BR>Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing = protocol. =20 Once you merge you<BR> = merge.<BR><BR>George - so=20 not sending explicit path in RSVP message.<BR><BR>Loa - send explicit = path to=20 merge point, but once resolve is same as = an<BR> =20 existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that=20 you<BR> can't do it.<BR><BR>Adrian - = George and I=20 need to work on this. MP2P-TE needs to be=20 solved<BR> in a = generalised way=20 for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS.<BR><BR>George - this sounds a little = non-standard as=20 compared to what = RSVP-TE<BR> =20 does at the moment.<BR><BR>Loa - I admit to that.<BR><BR>George - so you = have=20 full ERO and then if you hit a merge point=20 and<BR> merge is allowed = then=20 you merge?<BR><BR>Loa - yes. And don't have b/w = reservations. If=20 TSPEC is the same can<BR> = merge.<BR><BR>Don -=20 shared forwarding is a limited version of merging. No merging=20 of<BR> b/w etc. More definition = required=20 around this term in the<BR> =20 documentation.<BR><BR>Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE = in an LDP=20 fashion. We<BR> admit this is not=20 standard. We are building our=20 experimental<BR> platform. If what = we do is=20 good then fine, of not will change<BR> =20 it...<BR><BR>Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not=20 changes.<BR><BR>Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting=20 point.<BR><BR>Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is=20 applicable:<BR> 1) PBB net with edge and = core=20 bridges offering a native=20 Ethernet<BR> VLAN over = the=20 top. Looks like VPLS but is all native=20 Ethernet.<BR> 2) case like a PW for=20 aggregation.<BR><BR>Loa - my comparible picture shows network from = "above" and=20 "the side".<BR> Yellow part is GELS. = So have=20 MPLS over GELS over X? X !=3D = optical<BR> =20 switches in this testbed.<BR><BR>Igor - you said GELS could help for = optical=20 networks.<BR><BR>Loa - was a bit more careful than that. When we = get=20 people into our<BR> network we want to do = test=20 incorporation. Want to help = people<BR> =20 understand the idea. The operational paradigms of the layers=20 are<BR> very close. If you want = inter-layer=20 signalling that works over<BR> = UNI.<BR><BR>Igor -=20 so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration.<BR><BR>Loa - = yes, helps=20 operational side at least.<BR><BR>Igor - so people need to learn = less? If=20 familiar with optical CP can<BR> = learn=20 Ethernet CP?<BR><BR>Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork = configured=20 Ethernet with<BR> MPLS. What did you = mean? I read it as it helps by removing=20 MPLS.<BR> Is that = correct?<BR><BR>Don - is=20 interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network.<BR><BR>Igor - I don't see = MPLS=20 here.<BR><BR>Don - is in the WAN.<BR><BR>Dimitri - Where does the LSP = start and=20 finish in these diagrams? Is=20 it<BR> an S-PVC = mode or an=20 SVC mode.<BR><BR>Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet = I/F of the=20 IP<BR> router. Optical LSP starts on = Optical=20 interface of Ethenret<BR> = switch.<BR><BR>Dimitri -=20 is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE?<BR><BR>Don - in this = case=20 would have a PW that could be terminated or=20 stitched.<BR> You can always choose to = terminate=20 and then ?<BR><BR>Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI = deployments=20 today. = Do<BR> we=20 gain something by only having a switched mode that=20 goes<BR> router to = router,=20 or do we need a mode that goes edge to=20 edge.<BR> So from = ingress=20 PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the=20 IP<BR> routers = (S-PVC mode=20 rather than SVC mode). When I look=20 at<BR> usage of = GMPLS we=20 may need to consider both modes.<BR><BR>Adrian - don't see anything in = protocol=20 that prohibits either mode. =20 If<BR> something shows = up then=20 should flag it as we need to keep=20 both<BR> modes=20 available.<BR><BR>Dimitri - asking other way round. If we only = have=20 switched mode = then<BR> can=20 only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to=20 do<BR> it. = I'm=20 stating about our experience of deployment... =20 That's<BR> a=20 concern. Let's look at today's access nodes...<BR><BR>Loa - I've = kind of=20 lost the Q? I suggest you write the Q down and=20 put<BR> it on the list...<BR><BR>Don - we = don't=20 need to add that much to GMPLS. Next step is to add=20 a<BR> milestone for WG charter for = experimental=20 GELS spec (Loa's<BR> suggestion). = Add=20 milestone to develop a spec for GELS<BR> =20 signalling/routing (combined suggestion).<BR><BR>Adrian - at all future = meets=20 GELS will be at end of agenda and you=20 can<BR> carry on in your = own=20 time. Think we're premature for=20 milestone<BR> = requests. =20 Both of you can continue experimental work,=20 but<BR> doesn't come = into WG=20 quite yet. Rules still apply as to how=20 to<BR> bring stuff into=20 WG. Consider yourselves lucky that you=20 were<BR> allowed to = present=20 this. Rules say that if you believe=20 you<BR> have an = IEEE-conformant=20 data plane then we liase to IEEE=20 and<BR> say that we wish = to=20 control it, is that ok?<BR><BR>Loa - brought 802.1Q.<BR><BR>Adrian - = just say=20 "please" ;-) let's talk offline, I need to=20 understand<BR> the = dataplane=20 we're liasing a request=20 about...<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>2.=20 ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background=20 reading<BR> -=20 draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D<BR><BR>Zafar=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a<BR>WG = I-D.=20 Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request.<BR><BR>Lou - = Why is it=20 different from other p-to-p link between routers?<BR><BR>Zafar - This is = ethernet, so need ARP.<BR><BR>Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is = your=20 solution applicable to<BR> those=20 spaces?<BR><BR>Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical = address, this<BR> is what you = see in=20 GMPLS.<BR><BR>Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router=20 vendors?<BR><BR>Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. = The=20 second point<BR> is that we = typically=20 don't use two addresses.<BR><BR>Lou - The first point is just unnumbered = ethernet, and some vendors<BR> don't = understand=20 it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue.<BR><BR>Zafar - Why? We are using=20 signaling.<BR><BR>Lou - That is the second problem.<BR><BR>Lou - The = second=20 problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just=20 a<BR> broken implementation.<BR><BR>Zafar = - It is=20 unclear implementation.<BR><BR>Lou - What category do you intend for = this=20 I-D?<BR><BR>Zafar - BCP.<BR><BR>Igor - Where does the optical LSP start = and=20 end?<BR><BR>Zafar - Between routers.<BR>Igor - Where is the ethernet=20 connection?<BR><BR>Zafar - It is also netween routers<BR><BR>Igor - What = type of=20 connection?<BR><BR>Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over = optical=20 LSP, so need<BR> = to be=20 sure whether we want to say framing etc.<BR><BR>Deborah - Good = discussion. Igor=20 raised a good question - is=20 the<BR> connection = optical=20 or ethernet. Take it to the list.<BR><BR>Adrian - (To Zafar) Please = drive the=20 discussion so we get=20 progress<BR> before the = next=20 IETF.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>3.=20 Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS = TE<BR>(Mach Chen)=20 [10, 55/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background reading<BR> -=20 draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>= <BR>Mach=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and=20 protocol<BR>extensions.<BR><BR>Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery = in=20 L1VPN. Encourage you to = look<BR> at=20 L1VPN WG.<BR><BR>JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify = in=20 which case<BR> you may need it. Can you also = make sure=20 you do a cut and paste of<BR> the "not to do" = slide into=20 the draft. The draft is fine. Want = to<BR> =20 make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do=20 to<BR> prevent people coming up with silly = ideas. Are=20 you writing down in<BR> the document that not = doing TE=20 aggregation?<BR><BR>Mach - Yes.<BR><BR>Acee - Could you replace = extensions to=20 OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE?<BR> = Add=20 OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable=20 to<BR> both, but need to define if = that is=20 the case. Also not sure I<BR> agree = that it=20 should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery.<BR><BR>Stewart Bryant - The = reason=20 for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info=20 hiding.<BR> &n= bsp; =20 Can we make sure that you are not feeding=20 private<BR> &n= bsp; =20 information?<BR><BR>Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't = share TE=20 info<BR> outside=20 AS?<BR><BR>Stewart- Yes, but need to be v.=20 strict...<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>4.=20 Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements<BR>(Attila) = [10,=20 65/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background reading<BR> -=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>Attila=20 went over the slides explaining motivations, options for<BR>achieving = this, and=20 futher works.<BR><BR>Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to = follow=20 the same route?<BR><BR>Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do = that for=20 management and a<BR>couple of other issues.<BR><BR>Zafar - think Q is = back to=20 requirements of draft. I think you need=20 to<BR> spell out more on the=20 application why you need same path.<BR><BR>Julien - I agree that = co-routed=20 asymmetrical services is needed. =20 But<BR> you may have = missed=20 possible scenario where you could=20 associate<BR> = bidirectional LSP=20 at ingress.<BR><BR>Lou - I think Zafar has a good point. Before we = jump=20 into<BR> implementation need to say that = this is a=20 needed service and that<BR> what we have = today is=20 not sufficient. We did = bidirectional<BR> =20 symmetric service because the transport network needed it. if=20 we<BR> don't have such a transport network = then=20 what we have here may be<BR> =20 sufficient.<BR><BR>Attila - this extension is an optional = optimisation. =20 Not a requirement<BR><BR>Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's = useful=20 and what the<BR> benefit is.<BR><BR>Rowen = Soloman=20 - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing=20 low<BR> = =20 level config of egress traffic management is=20 complex.<BR> &= nbsp; =20 but want to see a relationship between this new=20 object<BR> &nb= sp; =20 and CAC funtionality. When do you go to CAC to=20 reserve<BR> &n= bsp; =20 b/w for the alternate direction? When is error sent=20 if<BR> &= nbsp; =20 there's insufficient b/w.<BR><BR>Attila - this is implementation = Q.<BR><BR>Rowen=20 - would like to see recommendation.<BR><BR>Igor - like to see whether we = need=20 such service. If have service = that<BR> =20 is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might=20 be<BR> reasonable. The reason = for=20 bidirectional LSP wasn't just = driven<BR> by=20 technology but also by benefits in setup time and=20 recovery.<BR> Much easier to handle = one=20 bidirectional LSP than a combination = of<BR> =20 two LSPs.<BR><BR>Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case = for=20 this? Need<BR> = mailing=20 list discussion.<BR><BR>Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an=20 application.<BR><BR>Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP=20 about?<BR><BR>Lucy - Discuss=20 offline.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>5.=20 Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, = 75/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background=20 reading<BR> -=20 draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>= <BR>Dan=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol = extensions<BR><BR>Adrian -=20 We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on=20 this<BR> draft. Who in = the room=20 read this? -> 5<BR> = Any=20 strong feeling against? None, but...<BR><BR>Zafar - Raised some=20 concern<BR><BR>Dan - Have you read this I-D?<BR><BR>Zafar - Some = comments.=20 Personally not sure about requirements. Not=20 sure<BR> if the group has = enough=20 interest to solve this problem.<BR><BR>Adrian- we do have to be sure = we're=20 solving a problem that = needs<BR> =20 solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean=20 they<BR> intend to implement = and=20 deploy. Would like feedback=20 from<BR> carriers as to = whether this=20 is a real problem and whether=20 they'd<BR> look to LMP to = solve=20 it.<BR><BR>Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real=20 problem.<BR><BR>Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to = solve. This=20 may be<BR> specific to=20 transmission devices. Not really issue for=20 packet<BR> =20 networks.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>6.=20 LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS = Networks<BR>(Guoying=20 Zhang) [10, 85/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background reading<BR> -=20 draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>Guoying=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and open = issues.<BR><BR>Adrian - is=20 this project alive, or complete? Is the draft +=20 the<BR> research =20 finished?<BR><BR>Guoying - project is still going. Want to do work = on e.g.=20 multipoint<BR> = LSPs and=20 rerouting.<BR><BR>Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, = also what=20 else the<BR> group would = like=20 measured?<BR><BR>Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is=20 useful.<BR><BR>Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on = list.<BR><BR>Zafar -=20 why is graceful release delay important?<BR><BR>Guoying - why graceful, = or why=20 release?<BR><BR>Zafar - why is graceful release delay = important?<BR><BR>Guoying=20 - release delay is important as both setup and release=20 impact<BR> the = application=20 performance. if release is not good=20 then<BR> won't = meet=20 requirements. So need to define performance=20 for<BR> = release. =20 Only looking at graceful release here as=20 forced<BR> release = will=20 cause problems anyway...<BR><BR>Lucy - when you talk about control plane = management, is that just<BR> = signalling or=20 also data plane setup?<BR><BR>Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues = with=20 control/data = sync.<BR> =20 hard to measure the=20 sync.<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>7.=20 Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services<BR>(Lucy = Yong)=20 [10, 95/120]<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background reading<BR> -=20 draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR= >Lucy=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the = group<BR>whether=20 this is interesting.<BR><BR>Dimitri - what shall we standardise=20 here?<BR><BR>Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle=20 reservation.<BR><BR>Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you = using=20 this model?<BR> = What do we=20 need to standardise here (where we work=20 on<BR> =20 protocols)?<BR><BR>Adrian - yes, we do protocols. In order to = decide if we=20 need a protocol<BR> we = need to=20 see what architecture we're trying to build. If=20 we<BR> can solve the=20 architecture with existing protocols then=20 we're<BR> done. If = we need=20 new protocol then we need to do it (either=20 in<BR> CCAMP or=20 elesewhere). But before we even define the arch=20 we<BR> need to answer = Lucy's Q=20 of whether this is something we need=20 to<BR> = solve.<BR><BR>Lucy - I=20 don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you=20 do<BR> this.<BR><BR>Dimitri - what = prevents=20 us today from saying we'd establish a=20 connection<BR> at = a given=20 point in time?<BR><BR>Lucy - all three options today don't = work.<BR><BR>Zafar -=20 can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides.<BR><BR>Lucy - your = connection=20 request doesn't have a future time in it.<BR><BR>Zafar - there are so = many ways=20 you could do it. Nothing to do=20 with<BR> protocol.<BR><BR>Lucy = -=20 carriers currently rely on management plane to do it. If we=20 have<BR> a CP then how do we combine = them?<BR><BR>Zafar - local decision?<BR><BR>Lucy - A network resource = you need=20 to reserve. Signalling doesn't = let<BR> =20 you know time.<BR><BR>Zafar - can take offline...<BR><BR>Rowen - you do=20 signalling to future allocate resources? So do you=20 keep<BR> full state of future=20 services?<BR><BR>Lucy - we can work that out in = implementation.<BR><BR>Rowen -=20 do you keep states in network for services that aren't=20 running?<BR> That's a major = scaling=20 issue.<BR><BR>Lucy - that's an implementation issue.<BR><BR>George - = It's a=20 major scaling issue in building a switch. Also=20 issues<BR> in terms of=20 recovering stuff in event of failure. Better=20 to<BR> leave stuff in = the mgmt=20 system and have CP as a slave.<BR><BR>Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so = don't=20 need to embed this in the nodes<BR><BR>George - when pull out of = network, it is=20 mgmt plane.<BR><BR>Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP.<BR><BR>George = - PCE=20 isn't part of GMPLS CP. Not suggesting we put this=20 in<BR> routing and=20 signalling? E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead=20 of<BR> time?<BR><BR>Lucy = - there=20 are different ways to implement this, not suggesting=20 one<BR> here.<BR><BR>George - don't = think is=20 good idea to put this in the switches. =20 Topology<BR> may change = between=20 making request and reserving it. So=20 not<BR> very useful to = embed the=20 info too close to where you're=20 going<BR> to deploy=20 it.<BR><BR>Lucy - I agree.<BR><BR>George - two things need to happen = before we=20 consider this. (1) need=20 to<BR> hear from SPs = that it's a=20 real need. Not many SPs want to=20 keep<BR> dark fibre = around to=20 light up instantaneously. (2) need=20 to<BR> clarify the = architecture=20 in terms of what is control and=20 what<BR> is=20 management...<BR><BR>Gert - we have application like this running for = two=20 years. Never had<BR> req. from = service=20 provider to put anything in the control=20 plane.<BR> So doubt if this is=20 useful...<BR><BR>Dimitri - I have one question. where shall I put = the=20 resource<BR> = management=20 state. If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio=20 which<BR> is = better than=20 what we do today then won't do it. There is=20 a<BR> temptation = to make=20 the control plane have all the features=20 of<BR> the = management=20 plane - really dangerous as end up with=20 a<BR> distributed=20 management plane...<BR><BR>Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put = mgmt plane=20 in CP. I think = I<BR> heard=20 Lucy say that too. So we all=20 agreed...<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>8.=20 CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120]<BR> - OIF Signaling = for MEF=20 Requirements<BR> - OIF VLAN ID Requirements<BR> - OIF = Interworking=20 Cookbook<BR> - SG15 Related<BR><BR>Slides<BR><BR>Background=20 reading<BR> - CCAMP incoming=20 correspondence<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>Dropped=20 from the agenda due to lack of time.<BR>Adrian - please look at slides = on=20 liaison work.<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:27:19 +0000 Message-ID: <0da801c7716f$0f071760$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>, "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu> Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:26:49 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP For Comment Deadline: 25th June 2007 The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. We are not sure that the Internet-Draft draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an ASON network. The current published version of this work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become available. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:26:56 +0000 Message-ID: <0d9901c7716e$8529f850$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <Ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "Dave Ward" <dward@cisco.com>, "Scott Bradner" <sob@harvard.edu> Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:22:56 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. Please comment by end of business 3rd April. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah ==== To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:32:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09" Subject: Draft minutes Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE0D9D0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Draft minutes Thread-Index: AcdxRRCdqUTCXW4MTA6kyWZeoSa+ig== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David McWalter and Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian --------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007 Monday, March 19, 2007 0900-1130 Morning Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in Prague. These minutes cover the Monday am meeting. Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150] Slides=20 Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150] Slides=20 --0905 Adrian gave draft status. Plenty of work, progressing well. 6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been sent to the RFC editor. Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in IESG review, both on security questions. 3 drafts in WGLC. gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian believes the latter is already implemented and deployed). ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable 10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline. Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result of OIF liaison. Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline, Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting. --0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change, which has just been approved as a BCP. Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes. The idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp. Deborah went through charter milestones. We're 'only just behind'. --0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress. This will make up the first 30 minutes of tomorrow's agenda. GMPLS enhancements are required, and will happen in ccamp. Dataplane enhancements will not happen at the IETF. Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane for a clearly specified dataplane. IEEE is just starting work on this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE. Adrian said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it). Dimitri at mic sought to clarify. Adrian replied that there is work that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for example the traffic parameters we have already started on. Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work. Adrian replied that we should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150] Slides=20 Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon. --0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison. Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing. Two liaisons: #1 Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point about call/connection separation. There was also a concern about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation. ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was valuable. Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS management. Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an action to look at this. #2 Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts before they get to RFC. --0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status. E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress. Again, two liaisons. #1 VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as part of an RSVP signaling message. OIF members accept that possibly this information isn't really part of a label. The EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just an attribute of that collection. Lyndon said OIF was open to looking at what was the best solution from a protocol standpoint. #2 OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 documents. OIF will send an update when these documents are approved and stable. Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft a liaison back to OIF. Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority. Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in touch with Lyndon. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt --0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67. Dimitri stressed that there is no implied relationship in these documents between MLN and multi-level routing. This is a problem for implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific extensions; these will go in separate documents. The main document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda, etc. If any more specific information is defined, then an extension document can be written. Also discussed resiliency and policy. Dimitri sought to exclude some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific technologies or additional functions/management. Next steps: ready for last call? what review process? Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may require changes. Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by closing technical discussions. Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router IDs or routable addresses. Dimitri replied that this document wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today. This has been discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago. Dimitri stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a new suggestion. Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification. Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable he's just trying to understand. Dmitri replied they could be. Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable? Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630. Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an objection to the case where router IDs were not routable. Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued. Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a routable IP address. Dimitri says this is just one interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this draft is introducing. Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?' Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630. --0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern. Dimitri took an action to do this and bounce it off Igor. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150] - Analysis of requirements - First proposal for solutions Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt --0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to him, he gets to present this draft. This has been taken on as a working group draft. Notes, there has been a long ad hoc mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main editor, but he could not make it to this meeting. Also there is a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen before this meeting. (Adrian will hit people if there is not a new revision soon). Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are in agreement on this, so should make progress. CCAMP will need to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses. To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all members of VCG are co-routed. Now hardware allows VCG components to follow different paths. Need to associate LSPs to form a single group, with defined capabilities. Need a pool of 'spare' LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice. Determine ports/ interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on hardware capabilities. There are two options for associating LSPs. Can either use the association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call. The latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the association. The VCG properties become call parameters, which works quite nicely. The problem that arises is management of the spare pool. It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in order to work. Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing function, but doesn't scale well. So perhaps only basic node and link properties should be advertised via routing, with other properties negotiated as part of call setup. Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM. Does this mean that a separate signaling or routing layer is needed? This is confusing people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead. Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering. Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11. It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own. Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated and delivered to it as a service. So all that we have talked about is within a layer, but with something above it that says 'I want VCAT'. Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14. Lyndon was unsure but agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150] - Strategy and plans to complete this work Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt --1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set. Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs. There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present. (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the dataplane, and (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but properties are exchanged between FA endpoint. These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for the management plane. Comments have also been received about directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei felt there was no ambiguity. Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to WGLC. The solution doc is proposed as a WG document. Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should allow them to respond in time for the end of last call. The timescales for the requirements drafts look about right. We'll poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after this meeting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend. Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS. Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific objects, and renames several objects. Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt --1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here. He explained how this responds to the WG charter item. It is also an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements. Kenichi summarized a set of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides). Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document proposed? Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work and stated what was relevant and how they were extended. Loa Andersson: okay Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting, and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future. Adrian: I don't know. We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is not our business. But maybe there are questions of co-ordination of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help with. Control plane OAM is clearly ours. Adrian is struggling with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues, and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is really some work here. Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a single document. Adrian: Good advice. Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri. When it says 'requirements', you need to have a technology in mind. It's good to have a list that says what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the technology. Adrian agreed. Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane. Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a look at it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections (Diego) [10, 90/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt --1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments from Dimitri on the list. Main problems are with failure scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after this IETF. Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the solution we want for this problem space. Any questions? . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt --1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00. Note that this draft now targets Informational status. Draft is stable, seeks WG acceptance. Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were questions of whether this was needed at all. But there was a feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent needless development of protocol extensions already supported by GR. Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7). Any objections (0). Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than just an informational clarification. Document needs to be consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined. This is just an educational document, not a BCP. Adrian: Understand. We'll discuss on the list. Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from providers. Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed: One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate path. Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested. This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions about applying FRR. Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane. The document has been updated with a solution about these and for the case of bundled links. Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes. This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this handling to other branch nodes on the path. Wording is difficult here; anyone with objections should let authors know. Next steps, need to address a nit. Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about how something or other applies to a link. Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will be ready for last call. Adrian: Do we know of any implementations? Zaar: No. Adrian: Okay, I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need to. Zafar: Thank-you. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions 11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt --1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st slide). We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest. The design team then formed. -00 draft was issued before this meeting. Will be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP. Why did we start a security framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already? The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been adequately addressed in the past. Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and fundamental parts of GMPLS. Ross and others asked for a single draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues. Any other drafts in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework. Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address them themselves. Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as possible. Will address security implementation implications for several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs, PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS. However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will reference existing security drafts). Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft. Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that has gone into this draft in a short time. Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort. Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr. Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing protocols but this is not the focus. Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the draft state the modes of operation under which the network is assumed to run. Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make it less secure. Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being employed in particular deployments being considered by this security draft. Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably. Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG. George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me. Adrian: He wouldn't dare. Loa: Agree with George. Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP. Can last call it in both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others object. Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific. Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work. Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by IPSphere. Monique (from floor): No. 11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt 11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt -1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented. There are two major questions about the GR draft. #1 What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or as a result of downstream node being subverted. #2 What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data plane as a result of such a bogus message? Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list. Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are exchanged are authenticated. This isn't about attacks from strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes. Adrian questions why this is of particular reference to GR? Surely any subverted node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol (for example, corrupting routes in path messages). Adrian also points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on the restarting node. There was also a discussion about falsified EROs, and what the consequences might be. On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which are end-to-end communication; a new concept? How are keys established with Notify recipients? Is Notify processing a necessary part of call processing? This leads to a question of whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required. Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify processing is not specific to calls. Either RSVP-TE security or IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify messages. Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as above. For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced, and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message was spoofed. This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work. For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for. Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in future. Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust domain). Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy with this because he is talking about node subversion which could be in a domain. Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted? Adrian: I don't know. Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs) Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'. Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here. ADs are welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to make a working protocol to address all this. We should push back very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work. Adrian: Thanks. Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were. Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say. I don't want to get shot. I have mixed feelings. When my laptop boots up, it says 'you might be infected'. Actually I know my laptop is infected. Routers might be too. It's not hard to infect routers; administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to bring down the network. However, no vendor is going to implement the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'. The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to define something that no-one has any interest in buying. That's one view. Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be. But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it. In the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of the security directorate. Perhaps we don't need to do anything about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be detected? We could try to figure out what an implementation would do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and put that in the draft. That might be enough for this draft, I hope. Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message. There's something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would be more like a PathErr message. Could you specify what you mean? Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out a way to do security is hop-by-hop. Zafar: Has concerns with this. Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e security. Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it. It's presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good for everyone. The IETF needs to address this problem. Adrian: Watch this space. Ross and I will report back to the mailing list after we've held our side-meetings. Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO. If every node does that (I think implementations do), much of the information passed by the neighbor is checked. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it. We're done, see you tomorrow. *********************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D694390714-28032007>Here's = the minutes=20 of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David = McWalter and=20 Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, = and=20 start to work on the items identified.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D694390714-28032007>Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D694390714-28032007>Deborah and=20 Adrian</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D694390714-28032007>----------------------------------------------= -----------------</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D694390714-28032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D694390714-28032007><PRE><FONT = size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007 Monday, March 19, 2007 0900-1130 Morning Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel <ADRIAN@OLDDOG.CO.UK> Deborah Brungard <DBRUNGARD@ATT.COM> Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in Prague. These minutes cover the Monday am meeting. Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-0.ppt> Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-0.ppt> --0905 Adrian gave draft status. Plenty of work, progressing well. 6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been sent to the RFC editor. Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in IESG review, both on security questions. 3 drafts in WGLC. gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian believes the latter is already implemented and deployed). ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable 10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline. Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result of OIF liaison. Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline, Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting. --0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change, which has just been approved as a BCP. Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes. The idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp. Deborah went through charter milestones. We're 'only just behind'. --0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress. This will make up the first 30 minutes of tomorrow's agenda. GMPLS enhancements are required, and will happen in ccamp. Dataplane enhancements will not happen at the IETF. Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane for a clearly specified dataplane. IEEE is just starting work on this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE. Adrian said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it). Dimitri at mic sought to clarify. Adrian replied that there is work that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for example the traffic parameters we have already started on. Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work. Adrian replied that we should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-1.ppt> Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon. --0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison. Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing. Two liaisons: #1 Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point about call/connection separation. There was also a concern about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation. ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was valuable. Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS management. Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an action to look at this. #2 Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts before they get to RFC. --0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status. E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress. Again, two liaisons. #1 VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as part of an RSVP signaling message. OIF members accept that possibly this information isn't really part of a label. The EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just an attribute of that collection. Lyndon said OIF was open to looking at what was the best solution from a protocol standpoint. #2 OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 documents. OIF will send an update when these documents are approved and stable. Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft a liaison back to OIF. Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority. Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in touch with Lyndon. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-2.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt --0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67. Dimitri stressed that there is no implied relationship in these documents between MLN and multi-level routing. This is a problem for implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific extensions; these will go in separate documents. The main document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda, etc. If any more specific information is defined, then an extension document can be written. Also discussed resiliency and policy. Dimitri sought to exclude some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific technologies or additional functions/management. Next steps: ready for last call? what review process? Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may require changes. Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by closing technical discussions. Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router IDs or routable addresses. Dimitri replied that this document wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today. This has been discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago. Dimitri stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a new suggestion. Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification. Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable he's just trying to understand. Dmitri replied they could be. Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable? Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630. Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an objection to the case where router IDs were not routable. Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued. Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a routable IP address. Dimitri says this is just one interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this draft is introducing. Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?' Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630. --0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern. Dimitri took an action to do this and bounce it off Igor. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150] - Analysis of requirements - First proposal for solutions Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-3.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt --0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to him, he gets to present this draft. This has been taken on as a working group draft. Notes, there has been a long ad hoc mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main editor, but he could not make it to this meeting. Also there is a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen before this meeting. (Adrian will hit people if there is not a new revision soon). Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are in agreement on this, so should make progress. CCAMP will need to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses. To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all members of VCG are co-routed. Now hardware allows VCG components to follow different paths. Need to associate LSPs to form a single group, with defined capabilities. Need a pool of 'spare' LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice. Determine ports/ interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on hardware capabilities. There are two options for associating LSPs. Can either use the association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call. The latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the association. The VCG properties become call parameters, which works quite nicely. The problem that arises is management of the spare pool. It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in order to work. Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing function, but doesn't scale well. So perhaps only basic node and link properties should be advertised via routing, with other properties negotiated as part of call setup. Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM. Does this mean that a separate signaling or routing layer is needed? This is confusing people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead. Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering. Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11. It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own. Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated and delivered to it as a service. So all that we have talked about is within a layer, but with something above it that says 'I want VCAT'. Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14. Lyndon was unsure but agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150] - Strategy and plans to complete this work Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-4.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt --1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set. Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs. There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present. (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the dataplane, and (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but properties are exchanged between FA endpoint. These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for the management plane. Comments have also been received about directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei felt there was no ambiguity. Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to WGLC. The solution doc is proposed as a WG document. Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should allow them to respond in time for the end of last call. The timescales for the requirements drafts look about right. We'll poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after this meeting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-5.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend. Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS. Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific objects, and renames several objects. Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-6.ppt> Background reading - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt --1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here. He explained how this responds to the WG charter item. It is also an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements. Kenichi summarized a set of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides). Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document proposed? Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work and stated what was relevant and how they were extended. Loa Andersson: okay Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting, and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future. Adrian: I don't know. We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is not our business. But maybe there are questions of co-ordination of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help with. Control plane OAM is clearly ours. Adrian is struggling with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues, and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is really some work here. Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a single document. Adrian: Good advice. Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri. When it says 'requirements', you need to have a technology in mind. It's good to have a list that says what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the technology. Adrian agreed. Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane. Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a look at it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections = (Diego) [10, 90/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-7.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt --1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments from Dimitri on the list. Main problems are with failure scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after this IETF. Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the solution we want for this problem space. Any questions? <NONE>. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-8.ppt> Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt --1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00. Note that this draft now targets Informational status. Draft is stable, seeks WG acceptance. Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were questions of whether this was needed at all. But there was a feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent needless development of protocol extensions already supported by GR. Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7). Any objections (0). Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than just an informational clarification. Document needs to be consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined. This is just an educational document, not a BCP. Adrian: Understand. We'll discuss on the list. Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from providers. Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-9.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed: One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate path. Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested. This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions about applying FRR. Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane. The document has been updated with a solution about these and for the case of bundled links. Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes. This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this handling to other branch nodes on the path. Wording is difficult here; anyone with objections should let authors know. Next steps, need to address a nit. Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about how something or other applies to a link. Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will be ready for last call. Adrian: Do we know of any implementations? Zaar: No. Adrian: Okay, I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need to. Zafar: Thank-you. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions 11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-10.ppt> Background reading - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt --1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st = slide). We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest. The design team then formed. -00 draft was issued before this meeting. Will be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP. Why did we start a security framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already? The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been adequately addressed in the past. Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and fundamental parts of GMPLS. Ross and others asked for a single draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues. Any other drafts in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework. Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address them themselves. Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as possible. Will address security implementation implications for several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs, PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS. However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will reference existing security drafts). Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft. Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that has gone into this draft in a short time. Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort. Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr. Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing protocols but this is not the focus. Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the draft state the modes of operation under which the network is assumed to run. Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make it less secure. Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being employed in particular deployments being considered by this security draft. Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably. Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG. George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me. Adrian: He wouldn't dare. Loa: Agree with George. Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP. Can last call it in both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others object. Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific. Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work. Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by IPSphere. Monique (from floor): No. 11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-11.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt 11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150] Slides <HTTP: www3.ietf.org proceedings 07mar slides ccamp-11.ppt> Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt -1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented. There are two major questions about the GR draft. #1 What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or as a result of downstream node being subverted. #2 What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data plane as a result of such a bogus message? Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list. Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are exchanged are authenticated. This isn't about attacks from strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes. Adrian questions why this is of particular reference to GR? Surely any subverted node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol (for example, corrupting routes in path messages). Adrian also points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on the restarting node. There was also a discussion about falsified EROs, and what the consequences might be. On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which are end-to-end communication; a new concept? How are keys established with Notify recipients? Is Notify processing a necessary part of call processing? This leads to a question of whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required. Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify processing is not specific to calls. Either RSVP-TE security or IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify messages. Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as above. For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced, and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message was spoofed. This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work. For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for. Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in future. Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust domain). Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy with this because he is talking about node subversion which could be in a domain. Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted? Adrian: I don't know. Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs) Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'. Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here. ADs are welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to make a working protocol to address all this. We should push back very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work. Adrian: Thanks. Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were. Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say. I don't want to get shot. I have mixed feelings. When my laptop boots up, it says 'you might be infected'. Actually I know my laptop is infected. Routers might be too. It's not hard to infect routers; administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to bring down the network. However, no vendor is going to implement the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'. The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to define something that no-one has any interest in buying. That's one view. Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be. But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it. In the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of the security directorate. Perhaps we don't need to do anything about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be detected? We could try to figure out what an implementation would do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and put that in the draft. That might be enough for this draft, I hope. Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message. There's something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would be more like a PathErr message. Could you specify what you mean? Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out a way to do security is hop-by-hop. Zafar: Has concerns with this. Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e security. Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it. It's presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good for everyone. The IETF needs to address this problem. Adrian: Watch this space. Ross and I will report back to the mailing list after we've held our side-meetings. Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO. If every node does that (I think implementations do), much of the information passed by the neighbor is checked. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it. We're done, see you tomorrow. ***********************************************************</FONT> </FONT></PRE></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:57:27 +0000 Message-ID: <097501c77077$6b92f240$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:53:02 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The Rapporteur of Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T has indicated that we have a little more time to generate responses to their recent liaisons. Nevertheless, we will try to do what we can to get response out quickly where the actions are simple. Cheers, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Cc: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Dear Adrian and Deborah, Slides 9, 10, & 11 indicate that the Q14/15 liaisons are just in and requesting response from ccamp by April 6th/2nd. Usually we set the expected responding date so that Q14/15 can consider the reply at the next meeting. This time, the Darmstadt meeting and the Chicago meeting are so close. I agree the notice is too short. So for these two Q14/15 liaisons, please take your time to have sufficient discussion within ccamp. If we can have the ccamp response by May 28 (Monday), we will be able to address it at the next SG15 Geneva meeting, which is June 4 - 15. Best Regards, Kam > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:39 AM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi, > > Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and > correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides > Deborah and I wrote at > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > > Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as > Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if > your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. > > Thanks, > Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:54:42 +0000 Message-ID: <087b01c76fe8$a12c0160$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Planned liaison responses to ITU-T SG15 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:51:24 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Thanks for the various conversations on and off list. In order to separate out the issues and avoid future confusion I plan to spawn a bunch of liaison responses to SG15. So far I have identified the following... 1. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Action List of current RFCs for inclusion by reference in the work plan. 2. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Information Current plans and rules of engagement for GELS work. 3. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of RSVP-TE Call I-D Explain current status Explain how I-D does not provide an ASON solution without additional work Give plans for additional work 4. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of VCAT/LCAS I-D Explain that a new revision that firms up requirements and starts on solutions is likely soon Promise to liaise the new revision when available 5. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Response to the issues of process raised. 6. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Responses to questions about ASON routing solution Liaise the latest copy of the I-D This item may also generate multiple liaisons if we find that there are too many retailed issues to respond to 7. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Close down the issue related to call/connection separation 8. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Liaise the latest versions of the MLN I-Ds as requested 9. Unsolicited New RFCs For Information I will start generating some draft text for these soon. Regards, Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:59:47 +0000 Message-ID: <05f101c76f95$c5bb86c0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from ["Italo Busi" <italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it>] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:58:57 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it Fri Mar 23 14:37:09 2007 > To: "Monique Morrow" <mmorrow@cisco.com>, > "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>, > "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > Subject: RE: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work > > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented > by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl> wrote: >> >> > Hello Lyndon, >> > >> > You wrote: >> > >> >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >> > >> > To avoid more confusion: >> > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >> > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >> > >> > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >> > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >> > >> >> I received the >> >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >> > >> > Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:49:54 +0000 Message-ID: <059601c76f91$26c42bc0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" <KenY@gridpointsystems.com>] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:53 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 21:47:49 2007 > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be>, > "Lyndon Ong" <lyong@ciena.com> > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:49:46 +0000 Message-ID: <059701c76f91$5f23a0e0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" <KenY@gridpointsystems.com>] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:27:29 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 22:23:34 2007 > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, > "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be> > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, > > Lyndon, > > I believe your response was prompted by my first statement. I placed > that in the mail as a suggestion to Dimitri on how to progress the > discussion. He specifically stated: "do we want to progress on the > topic inline with MEF expectations?". I wanted to throw in my 2 cents > that I thought this was not a bad way to proceed. > > Since we seem to be in agreement, no worries. Sorry if I caused any > confusion. > > On your second statement, I would like to see the liason exchange with > the MEF. A pointer would be awesome. > > Thanks! > Ken > > ________________________________ > > From: Ong, Lyndon [mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com] > Sent: Thu 3/22/2007 18:12 > To: Ken Young; Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi Ken, > > We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any > question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only > how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). > > Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year > and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you > want I can point you to this exchange. > > Cheers, > > Lyndon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM > To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:35:07 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:32:43 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow <mmorrow@cisco.com> To: Italo Busi <italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it>, Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> CC: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Message-ID: <C22CFD6B.4019A%mmorrow@cisco.com> Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdvgVKQkOS7L9t0EduEQwANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1911; t=1174897969; x=1175761969; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20<mmorrow@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=6/MXteuIETo7KvkVysRUPTtzTpiO9fGtxB8YOVSdo6o=; b=dMloxekaS462NRzKWzIRZ6tzmojE4QYBqaJwTlc20rnGtMzILlUwrldBHrH8+5zh6tBrv0vL N9k3Ye79rKJmosmwhJlZDorVkOgMSB171KDM3CHOGJ8zcLoFZO1V45Jb; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Italo, Was precisely my question in the context of network management as per his report. Lyndon has since cross checked with the rapporteur of Q.14. /m On 23/3/07 10:37 am, "Italo Busi" <italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it> wrote: > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl> wrote: >> >>> Hello Lyndon, >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>>> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >>>> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >>>> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >>> >>> To avoid more confusion: >>> The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >>> and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >>> >>> Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >>> system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >>> >>>> I received the >>>> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >>>> >>>> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >>>> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >>>> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >>> >>> Cheers, Huub. >> >> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:17:54 +0000 To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: GELS slides - comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF6DBB3A68.0125CEE6-ONC12572A5.006ACC7C-C12572A8.003847C7@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:14:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" o) slide 2 - draft-andersson (rev.01) " o Routing Protocol - OSPF-TE, we are running the OSPF-TE exactly as implemented by the Dragon project." -> are there more details available ? more importantly which TE information are carried that are of use for explicit route (computation, selection, etc.) section 3.3 suggest to make use of the LSP ATTRIBUTE object (that provides the flexibility of adding vectors of flags) - resource affinity can be still used per 3209 section 3.4 not sure to understand the purpose of using the suggested label as described o) slide 9 - bw reservation i would suggest parking this item in the more general context (to prevent specialization) o) slide 13 and slide 14 - clearly indicate the need supporting edge to edge ethernet LSP provisioning (explicit label control on the egress LSR) o) more generically for all mechanisms put in place for 802.1q and related (B, PB, and PBB) there is a wider question is GMPLS appropriate for the support of "domain wide" labels - i am not arguing in favor or against - i am just trying to solicit discussion on implications thanks, -d. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:16:00 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:12:10 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015E4583@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: Acdsyam9ETLP1rayQeOLs9/dSAh7iwAA0vKA From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: "Ken Young" <KenY@gridpointsystems.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Dimitri Papadimitriou" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Ken, We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you want I can point you to this exchange. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Adrian / Dimitri, =20 I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. =20 Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct understanding of the problem". =20 Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. =20 Cheers, Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:18:37 +0000 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:16:20 +0100 To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Cc: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "JONES Jim D" <Jim.d.Jones@alcatel-lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <E1HURqM-0009gL-Ar@psg.com> A way to handle the MTU issue is to signal multiple independent LSPs. The LSPs could be bound together into a single logical connection (EVC) using the association object. This approach could be used with either the VID per LSP or the multi-VID per LSP approach. The difference is one of scaling and optimization; i.e., (a) the first has lots of LSPs, but has simple/standard VID change/add/drop procedures while (b) the second has few LSPs but will require specific procedures to handle VID changes/adds/drops. While intuition leads me to believe that (b) is the better way to go, we may want to get the feedback of those presenting the requirements. Lou At 08:49 AM 3/21/2007, Ong, Lyndon wrote: >Hi Folks, > >I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I >think >we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case >of >very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri >mentions). > >Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know >that this >was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and >not >beyond this. > >Cheers, > >Lyndon > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM >To: Adrian Farrel >Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > >adrian > >o) VLAN I-D > >i don't think this is a Call functionality > >"No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of >C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" > >i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct > >"Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" > >rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 ><vc/session,label/session attr.> and 1:N <vc/session,set of >labels/session attr.> we can cover base cases as long as msg size >doesn't exceed MTU size >- the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of >the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF >expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is >proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) > >o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring >what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate >interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?) > >"Our comments are solicited >Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, >ASON)" > >o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to >GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a >"profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around > >o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all >about but to the question > >"- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the >point is that such exchange informative ? > >o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? > >yes > >o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise >draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an >RFC" and by April 2nd >- I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? > >that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability >I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing >charter milestones here > >o) routing > >"Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop >prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We >could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? >We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues >with our choice and received no answer." > >isn't the answer obvious ? > >"Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be >advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised >by one Ri at a time."" > >i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained >an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open >pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) > >"Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the >inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to >be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text >We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" > >ok > >"Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this >especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have >last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to >multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" > >at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU >meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real >concern ? > >"Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? >Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when >a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" > >done > >o) call i-d > >no, i think we're done > >note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of >those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from >informational aspects > >thanks, >-d. > > > > > >"Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> >Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >20/03/2007 16:39 >Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > cc: > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > >Hi, > >Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and >correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and >I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > >Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and >I > >try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on >the CCAMP list rather than in private. > >Thanks, >Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:02:56 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:01:28 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow <mmorrow@cisco.com> To: Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> CC: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Message-ID: <C227CC38.3FDEE%mmorrow@cisco.com> Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsaQ7bTatj4thcEduKxwANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1063; t=1174557694; x=1175421694; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20<mmorrow@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=i5BLD7ealVAzanaGyPooHTVVrJTCy6Jdf949jpWVtnU=; b=p3pFQSyALFSx6rQ8N0OMDFoBeTMyO8p0W7BVtZQWIq/xXtoo90Jn5hSiH3JnrNIWMJscL74X gdljk4SdA+AiSkAdtbY3DQdFEFD6+EIBcBr0T+FbEr0elidcxuT5pNHw; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as presented by Lyndon in his liaison report Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? Monique On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl> wrote: > Hello Lyndon, > > You wrote: > >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > > To avoid more confusion: > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. > > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > >> I received the >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:21:30 +0000 Message-ID: <46024A55.5070500@chello.nl> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:20:21 +0100 From: Huub van Helvoort <hhelvoort@chello.nl> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> CC: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lyndon, You wrote: > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in > ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with > the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. To avoid more confusion: The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > I received the > following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in > particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM > functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). Cheers, Huub. -- ================================================================ http://www.van-helvoort.eu/ ================================================================ Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:58 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:53:08 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow <mmorrow@cisco.com> To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Message-ID: <C227BC34.3FDD9%mmorrow@cisco.com> Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtgABLbFq Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3257383988_178552" DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2476; t=1174553593; x=1175417593; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20<mmorrow@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=7Gof8kjls3kfrysbhMNmRY0lyufIRxRa3JPGE4Q74Yg=; b=f9dtT20F7dj+upljCVa47mFDF4OZpS3n0rZsaGLHVdZTPNWYTjL3ZOfsyVwydvlf6d7uBd4+ DPbGSAZiFHTcJh/JMjROfp5UBgbIhqPMrsdkYMi+kUaUlfRilb7pu+yy; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks Lyndon! /m On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on > Ethernet-over-Transport > and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > I received the following > response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, > with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms > for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, > > L. Ong > --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Thank= s Lyndon!<BR> <BR> /m<BR> <BR> <BR> On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:<= BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"= >Hi Folks,<BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Monique had asked if the equipment specifications= work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport<BR> and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subject= s. I received the following<BR> response from the Rapporteur for Q.14:<BR> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The EoT and T-MPLS works in= SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS M= echanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networ= ks).<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">L. Ong<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> </FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda= na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> </FONT></SPAN> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3257383988_178552-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:23:06 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131" Subject: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work thread-index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtg== From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, =20 Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. I received the following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: =20 The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). =20 Cheers, =20 L. Ong ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007>Hi=20 Folks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D557501508-22032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D557501508-22032007>Monique had asked if=20 the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on=20 Ethernet-over-Transport</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007>and = T-MPLS was in=20 alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. I = received the=20 following</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D557501508-22032007>response from the=20 Rapporteur for Q.14:</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D557501508-22032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with = Q5/13,=20 <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D773024415-20032007>in = particular, with=20 Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms = for=20 Ethernet based networks).</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D773024415-20032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV= > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D773024415-20032007>Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DI= V> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D773024415-20032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV= > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D557501508-22032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D773024415-20032007>L.=20 Ong</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:54:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015461AB@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: AcdrXqzoDTPnbCTBS+mDOA+WbTrexwALghQg From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "JONES Jim D" <Jim.d.Jones@alcatel-lucent.com> Hi Folks, I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I think we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case of very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri mentions). Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know that this was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and not beyond this. =20 Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM To: Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses adrian o) VLAN I-D i don't think this is a Call functionality=20 "No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct "Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 <vc/session,label/session attr.> and 1:N <vc/session,set of labels/session attr.> we can cover base cases as long as msg size doesn't exceed MTU size - the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?)=20 "Our comments are solicited Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, ASON)" o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a "profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all about but to the question=20 "- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the=20 point is that such exchange informative ? o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? yes o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise=20 draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an RFC" and by April 2nd=20 - I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing charter milestones here o) routing "Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues with our choice and received no answer." isn't the answer obvious ? "Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised by one Ri at a time."" i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) "Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" ok "Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real concern ? "Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" done o) call i-d no, i think we're done note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from informational aspects thanks, -d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 20/03/2007 16:39 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc:=20 Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I=20 try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:08:50 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF6C48767E.0B9467B6-ONC12572A5.00082066-C12572A5.000B82E8@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:05:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 YWRyaWFuDQoNCm8pIFZMQU4gSS1EDQoNCmkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyBhIENhbGwgZnVu Y3Rpb25hbGl0eSANCg0KIk5vIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHByb3ZpZGVkIG9uIFVOSSBUU1BFQyBleHBl Y3RhdGlvbnMgKGUuZy4gZ3JhbnVsYXJpdHkgb2YgDQpDLVZMQU4gd2l0aGluIEVWQykgaW4gTGlh aXNvbiINCg0KaSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGhhcyBiZWVuIGNsYXJpZmllZCBvbiB0aGlzIGxpc3QgaWYg bXkgcmVjb3JkIGlzIGNvcnJlY3QNCg0KIkFueSBvdXRjb21lIG9mIGFkIGhvYyBkaXNjdXNzaW9u cyB5ZXN0ZXJkYXk/Ig0KDQpyc3YgaXMgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB0byB0aGUgdmMgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGFy 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<CD6C3694-7AC0-49AE-882C-5B6CDF9A2AA7@cisco.com> Cc: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: JP Vasseur <jvasseur@cisco.com> Subject: Re: My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:30:44 +0100 To: zhangrenhai 18605 <zhangrenhai@huawei.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=510; t=1174411889; x=1175275889; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20<jvasseur@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Re=3A=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas -te-extension-01.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20zhangrenhai=2018605=20<zhangrenhai@huawei.com>; bh=d9pyAIUsn8ieL3ee5IIgqwq4l92xjQePrK1bj9DVVmo=; b=a39piHjWa67S7demJJv/9kXxdYHa0qYW0W2H8EvhmdmiTTlSB7mlINm45K+2qz2HF2STb4PE EWSrOvAwRH04r2XooorzG0ZQGy7y/G0Clojo+jgpDnjwCNCp2dvhB/wh; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Thanks. JP. On Mar 20, 2007, at 5:25 PM, zhangrenhai 18605 wrote: > > Hi, JP > > Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next > version of the draft. > > Best regards, > Zhang Renhai > >> Hi, >> >> Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out >> in >> the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related >> information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS >> number >> and link type ? >> >> Thanks. >> >> JP. >> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:33:46 +0000 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:25:31 +0800 From: zhangrenhai 18605 <zhangrenhai@huawei.com> Subject: Re:My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt To: JP Vasseur <jvasseur@cisco.com> Cc: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <2e867162e88200.2e882002e86716@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Hi, JP Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next version of the draft. Best regards, Zhang Renhai > Hi, > > Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out > in > the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related > information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS > number > and link type ? > > Thanks. > > JP. > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:56 +0000 Message-ID: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:37:31 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2134E46C-9EF8-44C8-97C4-7F7E2DA73307@cisco.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: JP Vasseur <jvasseur@cisco.com> Subject: My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:34:21 +0100 To: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>, Zhang Renhai <zhangrenhai@huawei.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=253; t=1174404876; x=1175268876; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20<jvasseur@cisco.com> |Subject:=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-exte nsion-01.txt |Sender:=20; bh=LCjxVUttc0Zj/EBkl9C4Ove5R/81ZVfCsEqLUhrHTJU=; b=dbWLZmy/QBW4MfDqDtpqszcr0nKLWug4cMLncb4KFN3S373Fej8LagD/mGBcElgoE+DYBrHE ftncjiY+sGCZJEdDt65Yd7vXeix7YoGwG9TGqrZMbDd087OpSFRHlbm6; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Hi, Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out in the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS number and link type ? Thanks. JP. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 Message-ID: <047501c76a30$261f2be0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:08:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, We have received a second liaison statement from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the IETF. This can be seen at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm We are asked to respond by 2nd April 2007 > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=306 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file407.doc) We understand that IETF ccamp is currently progressing towards RFC status: Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) RSVP-TE Signaling Extensions in support of Calls - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt Section 2.1 of this draft states: â2.1 Applicability to ASON [RFC4139] details the requirements on GMPLS signaling to satisfy the ASON architecture described in [G.8080]. The mechanisms described in this document meet the requirements for Calls as described in Sections 4.2 and 4.3 of [RFC4139] and the additional Call-related requirements in Sections 4.4, 4.7, 5 and 6 of [RFC4139]. [ASON-APPL] describes the applicability of GMPLS protocols to the ASON architecture.â Since ITU-T SG 15 has responsibility for the ASON architecture, we would appreciate the opportunity to review this draft and provide our comments before it is published as an RFC. We would also appreciate a view from IETF ccamp on how this draft would be applied in the context of an ASON network, in particular how the ASON requirements are supported. Additionally, we observe with interest the progress on the draft: Operating Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) and the Link Capacity Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) with Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt This draft uses mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042 and is also applicable to an ASON network. Therefore, we would appreciate having an opportunity to review and provide input on this draft from an architectural perspective before it is published as an RFC. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/wd38r4_ls_ccamp.doc Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:11:08 +0000 Message-ID: <047401c76a30$25ef9060$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:04:46 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, We have received the following liaison from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T. A response is requested by 6th April 2007. As usual, you can find the details at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Thanks, Adrian > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 > February 2007 > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=305 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file406.doc) Thank you for your response to our previous liaison statement on the current ASON work in ccamp. With respect to the current liaison statement we have the following comments: On the selection of a loop prevention mechanism the liaison statement indicates that âthe choice was made after careful evaluation in cooperation with IETF's OSPF Working Group.â We would appreciate further details of these considerations to allow us to fully understand the thought going into this decision and evaluate any impacts on the transport network. In the context of an n:1or m:n relationship between Routing Controllers (RCs) and Transport Nodes the liaison states âwe have yet to hear from anyone who wishes to implement or deploy in this ratioâ. While there may have not been direct input from CCAMP participants on this, the ITU-T liaison clearly expressed interest in these scenarios on the part of ITU-T participants. We would appreciate understanding further the concerns in IETF ccamp with the wording change that was proposed in our last liaison to replace âLiâ with âTE Linkâ in section 5.1. Please note that in our previous liaison that the abbreviation SC refers to Signalling Controller (e.g. a RSVP instance). Please note that the ASON terms and abbreviations are defined in ITU-T Recommendation G.8081 (available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Regarding the use of âoptionalâ in the draft for timeslot accounting, we believe âMUSTâ to be more appropriate to meet the requirements defined in G.7715.1, whereas âoptionalâ implies that ASON requirements can be met without providing this level of accounting detail. We agree that WDM systems do not have timeslots. ASON is not specific to TDM networks, it may be applied to any network technology that can be modelled using G.805. To achieve this ASON manages link connections. Time slots and wavelengths are examples of link connections. Therefore, routing announcements for ASON must contain link connection accounting information. For the Local TE Router ID, we believe that âSHOULD only be includedâ¦if the Router_ID is advertising on behalf of more than one TE_Router_ID â is overly constrained, and âMUST be includedâ is necessary since identifier separation is an ASON requirement. This allows for the case of multiple Li per Ri (a common case for ASON). This also allows separation of the identifiers used in the information being distributed from the identifiers used by the protocol supporting the distribution. We do not require inter-operability with legacy OSPF routers in an ASON context. The liaison states âPlease keep us informed as you evolve ASON to include multi-layer networks and any related GMPLS protocol requirements.â It should be noted that ITU-T work has been addressing multi-layer networks for ASON for some time. The results of this multi-layer work are reflected in G.7715.1 (2004) section 9.5, G.8080 amendment 2 (2005) sections 6.5 and 6.6, with further detail in G.8080 version 2 (2006) sections 6.5, 6.6 and 8.5 (Available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Previous ITU-T liaison statements have shared the drafts in progress and the final results. We request that you liaise any work that you have under way on multi-layer networks. The liaison states: âWith regard to "speedy recovery", can you clarify your concern on LS MAX Age and the implications for recovery? Are you saying that your concern is the continued behavior of upward dissemination of routing information in the event that the selected RC performing the dissemination fails?â. Our expectation is that the parent/child redistribution of information will be continuous even when a redistribution point has failed. Could you explain how the mechanism that has been proposed behaves under this condition. Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: âWe understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct.â ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore continues to request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/rd29r6_ls_ccamp.doc Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:31:26 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:28:42 -0400 Message-ID: <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B0703C54724@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdhGKiQbRcfK8vLRvqqzdcmiwKIGQIl0Sdg From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4491; t=1174267731; x=1175131731; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20<zali@cisco.com> |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-s hutdown-01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20<Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; bh=+Ar5Tpzogh8pf8e5GdXOrJcoN6VwmgNGnkzzHnhIKYw=; b=Id2sRJbR/3u8c7k3M69yD+Rdy6vG+hWvhmbnSE7ApK2AeKCD8oWPTXBxHp4L77Y6ctnSyOve 7Y5Uxei1R3OxETsPMhr3bQy6cC705d4JFbL+blApCoJU735dso1vEkMK; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Dear Dimitri-=20 Thanks for your comments and sorry for the delay in replying. Please see in-line.=20 Thanks Regards... Zafar =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:28 PM > To: Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Adrian Farrel; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20 > Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Jean Philippe Vasseur (jvasseur);=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 > zafar - >=20 > o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been=20 > provided since so far ? >=20 Dimitri-=20 The delta was to mainly addresses comments received. The major comments were (quoting from respective email):=20 "- not sure to understand why the PathErr/Notify can be processed by the head-end only (what about segment recovery and stitching case) - why only=20 MBB is possible upon reception (pls use E2E recovery/Segment recovery=20 capabilities as you address GMPLS networks)". How this comment is addressed: Re: segment recovery and stitching case, definition of the node that can perform GS procedure has been extended to include Ingress LSR of an S-LSP. See enclosed slides for details. Re: why only MBB is possible upon reception.=20 Text in the new version is modified such that it allows the following-=20 - Graceful shutdown may be exercised using make-before-break or FRR/ segment recovery procedure.=20 - When PLR/ branch node receive a Path Error with Graceful Shutdown indication,=20 o It MUST forward the Path Error to the Ingress node. O Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery. "- in case shutdown of a protected component link (of a bundle) is=20 initiated why can't link protection be used ?" How this comment is addressed: Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery to recover from failure of a component link.=20 "- compared to path-reopt, error description is identical for the TE link=20 case which leads to the following point - if errors code/value are the=20 same how to distinguish them" This ID inherits the Ingress behavior from RFC 4736, which says, "Upon receiving an RSVP PERR message with Error code 25 and Error sub- code 7 (Local link maintenance required) or 8 (Local node maintenance required), the Head-end LSR SHOULD perform a TE LSP reoptimization".=20 This drafts extends the handling of this error code/ sub-code at PLR/ branch node (which includes the case where ingress node is PLR/ branch node). IMO no need for adding a new perr subcode. =20 > o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement >=20 > "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs=20 > spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " >=20 > afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? This is correct. We will change the wording to make it clear.=20 >=20 > thanks, > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com> > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 02/03/2007 00:41 > =20 > To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,=20 > "Brungard, Deborah=20 > A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, Dimitri=20 > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Jean Philippe Vasseur=20 > \(jvasseur\)"=20 > <jvasseur@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com> > Subject: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 >=20 > Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers-=20 > =20 > As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting,=20 > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.ht > m, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the=20 > following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should=20 > you have any further comment, please share.=20 > =20 > The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this=20 > ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a=20 > new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be=20 > standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 > =20 > The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the=20 > closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards... Zafar =20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:19:19 +0000 From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org> Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, ccamp mailing list <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, ccamp chair <ccamp-chairs@tools.ietf.org> Subject: Protocol Action: 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <E1HSrV1-0006hd-UK@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:23 -0400 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE ' <draft-ietf-ccamp-crankback-06.txt> as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-crankback-06.txt Technical Summary In a distributed, constraint-based routing environment, the information used to compute a path may be out of date. This means that Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineered (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) setup requests may be blocked by links or nodes without sufficient resources. Crankback is a scheme whereby setup failure information is returned from the point of failure to allow new setup attempts to be made avoiding the blocked resources. Crankback can also be applied to LSP recovery to indicate the location of the failed link or node. This document specifies crankback signaling extensions for use in MPLS signaling using RSVP-TE as defined in "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP Tunnels", RFC3209, and GMPLS signaling as defined in "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signaling Functional Description", RFC3473. These extensions mean that the LSP setup request can be retried on an alternate path that detours around blocked links or nodes. Working Group Summary No dissent. There was some comment that the document contains too many sub-TLVs for conveying crankback information , but for each individual TLV the consensus was to retain it (see PROTO writeup in comments in ID tracker). Protocol Quality Ross Callon reviewed this for the IESG. The spec has been updated in response to comments from the AD (Ross) as well as Security Directorate comments. The document was also liaisoned and reviewed by ITU-T's SG15. Note to RFC Editor There are a few typos, particularly in documents referenced, that need to be corrected. The set of corrections (provided by Adrian Farrel): ==== Section 2.1 s/[RC3473]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 4.5, point 4) s/[RFC4373]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 13 DELETE [G8080] ITU-T Recommendation G.808/Y.1304, Architecture for the Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON), November 2001. For information on the availability of this document, please see http://www.itu.int. === Section 13 ADD [RFC4201] Kompella, K., Rekhter, Y., and Berger, L. "Link Bundling in MPLS Traffic Engineering (TE)", RFC 4201, October 2005. === Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:27:18 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <12c43ba1e2f27c8872cc708ab1000dbf@cn.kddilabs.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: OGAKI Kenichi <ke-oogaki@cn.kddilabs.jp> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf-constraints-05.txt Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:28 +0900 Hello All, Please find the new revision (05) of "Considering Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering Attributes During Path Computation". http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf- constraints-05.txt The document provides guidelines for the consideration of Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic-Engineering (TE) attributes for computation of routes for Label Switched Paths (LSPs) in a GMPLS network. We have made a number of changes to make the document clearer and added some new sections including security. We would welcome your feedback and thoughts. Regards, Tomo, Kenichi, & Dan Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:19:22 +0000 Message-ID: <008b01c76757$ff6e68b0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Don't forget to send me your slides! Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:12:48 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, It is really helpful to everyone and especially the non-native English speakers if we can get the slides posted before the meeting, so don't forget to send them to us. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:24:08 +0000 From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org> Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, ccamp mailing list <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, ccamp chair <ccamp-chairs@tools.ietf.org> Subject: Protocol Action: 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <E1HQrz4-0006WN-0f@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:23:10 -0400 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership ' <draft-ietf-ccamp-automesh-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-automesh-04.txt Technical Summary The set up of a full mesh of Multi-Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSP) among a set of Label Switch Routers (LSR) is a common deployment scenario of MPLS Traffic Engineering either for bandwidth optimization, bandwidth guarantees or fast rerouting with MPLS Fast Reroute. Such deployment may require the configuration of potentially a large number of TE LSPs (on the order of the square of the number LSRs). This document specifies Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP) routing extensions for Intermediate System-to-Intermediate System (IS-IS) and Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) so as to provide an automatic discovery of the set of LSRs members of a mesh in order to automate the creation of such mesh of TE LSPs. Working Group Summary No dissent reported. There has been some discussion of the wisdom of putting this information in an IGP (rather than BGP or somewhere else) within the routing directorate and a few other relevant folks (eg, chairs of IS-IS and/or OSPF WGs). The consensus is clearly to go ahead with this draft as specified. Based on this discussion, appropriate text was added to the document that discusses this issue briefly. The document was last called in the IS-IS and OSPF working groups in addition to the CCAMP WG. Protocol Quality Ross Callon has reviewed this for the IESG. According to the PROTO writeup there are implementations and at least some deployment. IANA Note The -03 and -04 versions of the draft contains an updated IANA considerations section which is intended to respond to the IANA questions entered into the tracker on Sept 27, 2006. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:52:14 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Message-Id: <E1HQqWw-0004e2-69@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing Author(s) : D. Papadimitriou Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2007-3-12 The Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) suite of protocols has been defined to control different switching technologies as well as different applications. These include support for requesting TDM connections including SONET/SDH and Optical Transport Networks (OTNs). This document provides the extensions of the OSPFv2 Link State Routing Protocol to meet the routing requirements for an Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON) as defined by ITU-T. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt". 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Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say. See you soon, Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630 "The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear exactly once." " The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor." you wrote "TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID)." this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for numbered TE links in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID rather than the Router ID) thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin 10/03/2007 14:10 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link âââ‰â¬Å remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆâ"Ãâât understand why the Remote Te Router ID? IsnÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆâ"Ãâât this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Â¦"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Å¡ÃâàIn G.8080 I read: ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Â¦".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Å¡ÃâàWhy is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,<br><br>I probably do not make myself clear, but you don't seem to see what I am saying. Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say.<br><br>See you soon,<br>Igor<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor <br><br>the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630 <br><br>"The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear <br>exactly once."<br><br>" The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br> point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor."<br><br><br>you wrote<br><br>"TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered <br>(combination of TERtrID and LinkID)."<br><br>this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for <br>numbered TE links<br><br>in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow <br>identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID <br>rather than the Router ID)<br><br><br>thanks,<br>-d.<br><br><br> <br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>10/03/2007 14:10<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It <br>must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several <br>TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE <br>graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE <br>links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered <br>(combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by <br>separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no <br>importance.<br><br>Igor<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br>not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, <br>an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition <br><br>of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) <br><br>-d<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>09/03/2007 22:36<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br>, "Ong, Lyndon" , <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not <br>unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build<br>of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not <br><br>unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you <br>suggest we put in each of these two fields?<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor <br><br>but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and <br>processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be <br>associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping <br>id spaces (to identify the "links") <br><br>for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a <br>new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and <br><br><br>latter takes the TE Router ID as value)<br><br>it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial <br>e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing <br>protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they <br><br><br>can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 20:29<br><br>To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri <br>PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Lyndon,<br><br>Let me try to explain my point. <br><br>Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the <br>relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes <br><br><br>or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple <br><br><br>TE routers.<br><br>Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):<br><br>Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. <br><br><br>In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.<br><br>Solution 2 (mine)<br><br>The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs <br>controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE <br>Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there <br>is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the <br>function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote <br>end of the advertised TE link âââ‰â¬Å remote TE Router ID.<br><br>Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to <br><br><br>answer is:<br><br>Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?<br><br>The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. <br>For example, if the network<br>is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will <br>contain<br>path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable <br>solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned <br>path..<br>If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs <br>should be advertised within Router Address TLV<br>Hope that this helps.<br><br>Igor<br><br><br><br><br>"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:<br>Hi Dimitri,<br><br>That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Lyndon <br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf <br><br><br>Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be<br>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM<br>To: Igor Bryskin<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf <br><br>igor<br><br>the drafts says<br><br>"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. <br><br><br><br>Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly <br>once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. <br><br><br><br>" <br><br>which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the <br>remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is <br>associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the <br><br><br>remote RC..."<br>in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not <br>apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -<br><br>concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple <br><br><br>associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?<br><br>thanks,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 16:05<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br><br>no<br><br>> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br><br>no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case <br>the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br><br>IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the<br>RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br><br>In RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.5.2. Link ID<br><br><br><br>The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br><br>point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br><br>"<br><br>Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br><br>(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the<br>neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end <br>of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not <br>advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.<br><br>Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.4.1. Router Address TLV<br><br>The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<br>advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<br>connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<br>address". The key attribute is that the address does not become<br>unusable if an<br>interface is down. In other protocols, this is known<br>as the "router ID"<br><br>I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is <br>advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to <br>advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is <br>the TE Router ID.<br><br>The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID <br><br><br><br>of the remote TE node. <br><br>The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs <br>supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be <br>proposed in your draft<br><br>ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br><br><br><br><br>real difference)<br><br>IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br>am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br>support G.8080 <br><br>Igor<br><br>pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br>your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>09/03/2007 00:03<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br><br>You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br><br>Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br>difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br><br><br><br><br>why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br>may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br>identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br>Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br><br>BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br>to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br>it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br>from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br>to make.<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br><br>pls use version (or 03 <br>when available to make comments)<br><br>in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br><br>" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br>(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br>appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br>defined in [RFC3630]. "<br><br>now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br><br><br><br><br><br>par.5.2<br>but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>08/03/2007 22:11<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br>I have a couple questions wrt the <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br>local and remote TE Router ID:<br><br>0 1 2 3 <br>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| 17 | Length | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Local TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Remote TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br><br>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br>Router ID, I donÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆâ"Ãâât understand why the Remote Te <br>Router ID? <br>IsnÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆâ"Ãâât <br>this is <br>the same<br>information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br>In 6. you write:<br><br>ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Â¦"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by <br>links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br>a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single <br>link.ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ<br><br>In G.8080 I read:<br>ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Â¦".... A routing area is defined by a set of <br>subnetworks, the <br>SNPP <br>links <br><br>that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br>links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br>routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br>results in a routing area that contains ]one <br>subnetwork.ÃÆÃâÃââÃÆâ'ÃâìÃÆââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ<br><br>Why is the discrepancy?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Igor<br><br><br>[<br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br><br><br><br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br><br>Get your own web address.<br>Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<br><br><br>8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time<br>with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.<br><br><br> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast <br>with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.<br><br></Lyong@Ciena.com></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>TV dinner still cooling?<br><a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49979/*http://tv.yahoo.com/">Check out "Tonight's Picks"</a> on Yahoo! TV. --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:44 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFB35EA62A.911CB291-ONC125729A.004A8D27-C125729A.004B70FB@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:44:01 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciANCg0KdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGlzIHRoZSBkaXNjb25uZWN0LCBwZXIgMzYzMCAN Cg0KIlRoZSBMaW5rIFR5cGUgYW5kIExpbmsgSUQgc3ViLVRMVnMgYXJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSwgaS5l LiwgbXVzdCBhcHBlYXIgDQpleGFjdGx5IG9uY2UuIg0KDQoiIFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYg aWRlbnRpZmllcyB0aGUgb3RoZXIgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBsaW5rLiAgRm9yDQogIHBvaW50LXRvLXBv 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b=OGGbQJpfmJg1bRGLPgjH0kSqw9kpguwlwq4NN1dM3VcSl/tFHId/abk5QUBEfHKdQu82Jo0P9ym2Y/bG1YCwg+FTyg/N3uk5UwZtdemmgVQ+uwo1uEYP8UPwD//AF2lS8TWfC+rEa99cZDOmw6ObCLvm/wWdqSNOoa1oRWzFik0= ; Message-ID: <20070310131046.30815.qmail@web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-914139335-1173532245=:30300" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link ââ¬â remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donÃÆââ'ìâ"ât understand why the Remote Te Router ID? IsnÃÆââ'ìâ"ât this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ÃÆââ'ìÃâ¦"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ÃÆââ'ìÃâàIn G.8080 I read: ÃÆââ'ìÃâ¦".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ÃÆââ'ìÃâàWhy is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,<br><br>But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance.<br><br>Igor<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor<br><br>not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, <br>an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition <br>of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) <br><br>-d<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>09/03/2007 22:36<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not <br>unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build<br>of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not <br>unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you <br>suggest we put in each of these two fields?<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor <br><br>but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and <br>processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be <br>associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping <br>id spaces (to identify the "links") <br><br>for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a <br>new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and <br><br>latter takes the TE Router ID as value)<br><br>it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial <br>e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing <br>protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they <br><br>can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 20:29<br><br>To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri <br>PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Lyndon,<br><br>Let me try to explain my point. <br><br>Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the <br>relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes <br><br>or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple <br><br>TE routers.<br><br>Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):<br><br>Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. <br><br>In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.<br><br>Solution 2 (mine)<br><br>The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs <br>controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE <br>Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there <br>is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the <br>function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote <br>end of the advertised TE link ââ¬â remote TE Router ID.<br><br>Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to <br><br>answer is:<br><br>Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?<br><br>The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. <br>For example, if the network<br>is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will <br>contain<br>path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable <br>solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned <br>path..<br>If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs <br>should be advertised within Router Address TLV<br>Hope that this helps.<br><br>Igor<br><br><br><br><br>"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:<br>Hi Dimitri,<br><br>That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Lyndon <br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf <br><br>Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be<br>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM<br>To: Igor Bryskin<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf <br><br>igor<br><br>the drafts says<br><br>"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. <br><br><br>Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly <br>once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. <br><br><br>" <br><br>which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the <br>remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is <br>associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the <br><br>remote RC..."<br>in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not <br>apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -<br><br>concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple <br><br>associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?<br><br>thanks,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 16:05<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br><br>no<br><br>> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br><br>no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case <br>the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br><br>IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the<br>RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br><br>In RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.5.2. Link ID<br><br><br><br>The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br><br>point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br><br>"<br><br>Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br><br>(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the<br>neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end <br>of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not <br>advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.<br><br>Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.4.1. Router Address TLV<br><br>The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<br>advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<br>connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<br>address". The key attribute is that the address does not become<br>unusable if an<br>interface is down. In other protocols, this is known<br>as the "router ID"<br><br>I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is <br>advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to <br>advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is <br>the TE Router ID.<br><br>The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID <br><br><br>of the remote TE node. <br><br>The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs <br>supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be <br>proposed in your draft<br><br>ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br><br><br><br>real difference)<br><br>IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br>am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br>support G.8080 <br><br>Igor<br><br>pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br>your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>09/03/2007 00:03<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br><br>You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br><br>Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br>difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br><br><br><br>why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br>may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br>identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br>Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br><br>BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br>to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br>it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br>from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br>to make.<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br><br>pls use version (or 03 <br>when available to make comments)<br><br>in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br><br>" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br>(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br>appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br>defined in [RFC3630]. "<br><br>now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br><br><br><br><br>par.5.2<br>but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>08/03/2007 22:11<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br>I have a couple questions wrt the <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br>local and remote TE Router ID:<br><br>0 1 2 3 <br>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| 17 | Length | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Local TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Remote TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br><br>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br>Router ID, I donÃÆââ'ìâ"ât understand why the Remote Te Router ID? <br>IsnÃÆââ'ìâ"ât <br>this is <br>the same<br>information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br>In 6. you write:<br><br>ÃÆââ'ìÃâ¦"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br>a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single <br>link.ÃÆââ'ìÃâÃÂ<br><br>In G.8080 I read:<br>ÃÆââ'ìÃâ¦".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the <br>SNPP <br>links <br><br>that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br>links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br>routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br>results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ÃÆââ'ìÃâÃÂ<br><br>Why is the discrepancy?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Igor<br><br><br>[<br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br><br><br><br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br><br>Get your own web address.<br>Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<br><br><br> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time<br>with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.<br><br></Lyong@Ciena.com></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1> Don't get soaked. Take a<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news"> quick peek at the forecast </a><br> with the<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news">Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.</a> --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:12:07 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFCC724319.EECB5F6C-ONC125729A.000AC73B-C125729A.000BC955@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:08:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQpub3QgYW4gaXNzdWUgb2YgVEUgcm91dGVyIElEIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MsIHdpdGhvdXQg dGhpcyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHN1Yi1UTFYsIA0KYW4gdW5udW1iZXJlZCBsb2NhbCBpZCBtYXkgbm90 IGJlIHVuaXF1ZSBwZXIgcm91dGVyX2lkLCBoZW5jZSB0aGUgYWRkaXRpb24gDQpvZiB0aGlzIHN1 Yi1UTFYgKFRFIFJvdXRlciBJRCBiZWluZyB1bmlxdWUgcGVyIHJvdXRlcl9pZCkgDQoNCi1kDQoN 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YWhvbyEgU21hbGwgQnVzaW5lc3MuDQoNCg0KIDg6MDA/IDg6MjU/IDg6NDA/IEZpbmQgYSBmbGlj ayBpbiBubyB0aW1lDQp3aXRoIHRoZVlhaG9vISBTZWFyY2ggbW92aWUgc2hvd3RpbWUgc2hvcnRj dXQuDQoNCg== Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:37:50 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=kZRQHi11Gpso93OkfkLA7HWigvJQks6KMUA+AJ6BiShBlPCytrjEowax+S51hSy+n0jv6VJAIV4TcGZija5K6h7SZx5o0r5s09LjtJxC9IKGAfLD7Z/8M7goLnZyX3RVY22TVnJXD1bR+5IhUZ9nmD/xdnHpgiIUbLwXG/I3pkI=; Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <587929.26675.qm@web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link â remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'‰"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'‰"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'ˆ "A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Ã In G.8080 I read: ââ'ˆ ".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Ã Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,<br><br>I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build<br>of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields?<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor <br><br>but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and <br>processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be <br>associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping <br>id spaces (to identify the "links") <br><br>for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a <br>new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and <br>latter takes the TE Router ID as value)<br><br>it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial <br>e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing <br>protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they <br>can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 20:29<br> <br> To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, Dimitri <br>PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><dbrungard@att.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> Subject: RE: Two questions on <br>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf<br><br><br>Lyndon,<br> <br>Let me try to explain my point. <br> <br>Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the <br>relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes <br>or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple <br>TE routers.<br> <br>Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):<br> <br>Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. <br>In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.<br> <br>Solution 2 (mine)<br> <br>The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs <br>controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE <br>Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there <br>is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the <br>function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote <br>end of the advertised TE link â remote TE Router ID.<br> <br>Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to <br>answer is:<br> <br>Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?<br> <br>The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. <br>For example, if the network<br> is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will <br>contain<br> path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable <br>solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned <br>path..<br>If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs <br>should be advertised within Router Address TLV<br>Hope that this helps.<br> <br>Igor<br> <br> <br><br><br>"Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:<br>Hi Dimitri,<br><br>That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Lyndon <br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf <br>Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be<br>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM<br>To: Igor Bryskin<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; <br>owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf <br><br>igor<br><br>the drafts says<br><br>"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. <br><br>Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly <br>once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. <br><br>" <br><br>which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the <br>remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is <br>associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the <br>remote RC..."<br>in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not <br>apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -<br><br>concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple <br>associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?<br><br>thanks,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 16:05<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br><br>no<br><br>> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br><br>no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case <br>the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br><br>IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the<br>RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br><br>In RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.5.2. Link ID<br><br><br><br>The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br><br>point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br><br>"<br><br>Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br><br>(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the<br>neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end <br>of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not <br>advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.<br><br>Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.4.1. Router Address TLV<br><br>The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<br>advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<br>connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<br>address". The key attribute is that the address does not become<br>unusable if an<br>interface is down. In other protocols, this is known<br>as the "router ID"<br><br>I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is <br>advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to <br>advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is <br>the TE Router ID.<br><br>The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID <br><br>of the remote TE node. <br><br>The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs <br>supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be <br>proposed in your draft<br><br>ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br><br><br>real difference)<br><br>IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br>am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br>support G.8080 <br><br>Igor<br><br>pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br>your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>09/03/2007 00:03<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br><br>You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br><br>Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br>difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br><br><br>why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br>may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br>identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br>Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br><br>BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br>to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br>it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br>from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br>to make.<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br><br>pls use version (or 03 <br>when available to make comments)<br><br>in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br><br>" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br>(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br>appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br>defined in [RFC3630]. "<br><br>now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br><br><br><br>par.5.2<br>but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>08/03/2007 22:11<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br>I have a couple questions wrt the <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br>local and remote TE Router ID:<br><br>0 1 2 3 <br>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| 17 | Length | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Local TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Remote TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br><br>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br>Router ID, I donââ'‰"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? <br>Isnââ'‰"¢t <br>this is <br>the same<br>information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br>In 6. you write:<br><br>ââ'ˆ "A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br>a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single <br>link.ââ'¬ÃÂ<br><br>In G.8080 I read:<br>ââ'ˆ ".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP <br>links <br><br>that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br>links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br>routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br>results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬ÃÂ<br><br>Why is the discrepancy?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Igor<br><br><br>[<br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br><br><br><br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br> <br> Get your own web address.<br>Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<br><br></Lyong@Ciena.com></dbrungard@att.com></Lyong@Ciena.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>8:00? 8:25? 8:40? <a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news"> Find a flick</a> in no time<br> with the<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news">Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.</a> --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:59:44 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF58D4C5DE.CDC9E541-ONC1257299.006EC3BE-C1257299.0073421E@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:58:55 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciANCg0KYnV0IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc29sdmUgdGhlIGlzc3VlIChhbmQgaW50cm9kdWNlcyBk aWZmZXJlbnQgc2V0dGluZyBhbmQgDQpwcm9jZXNzaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBsaW5rIGlkIHZhbHVlIGZy b20gcmZjIDM2MzApIGluZGVlZCwgaW4gQVNPTiBSQyBjYW4gYmUgDQphc3NvY2lhdGVkIHRvIG11 bHRpcGxlICJub2RlcyIsIGVhY2ggb2YgdGhlc2Ugbm9kZXMgY2FuIGhhdmUgb3ZlcmxhcHBpbmcg 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<julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFB03B8A39.2025E9CA-ONC1257299.006F11F4-C1257299.00721C8F@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:46:24 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" lyndon a C-Type 3 label can help here with a VLAN bundle ID note that in this case, you will have the possibility to optionally list (set of) intervals hope this will help you, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> 09/03/2007 19:29 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs, then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:30:48 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lH59bw17hSOdsoDVeP/CH+0UZxQ22Ym/rxH7bWhHdw/NaVrjZmMAK4Tothr91TMI3Z2y1/IdxO3BTtlUnvoqEEzSQp6k84X+pcOt5K/GZ7T/jOJXitzLEUBzwToSqoHQJdUbp1vg24s6CFCqrj/GbOlrrtkrLGtj7gP0v0MYpOM=; Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <953108.45458.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div class="MsoNormal">Lyndon,</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Let me try to explain my point. </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers.</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Solution 2 (mine)</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is:</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <pre><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";">The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network<br> is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path..<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";">If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";">Hope that this helps.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><br> <br> <b><i>"Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Hi Dimitri,<br> <br> That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.<br> <br> Cheers,<br> <br> Lyndon <br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be<br> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM<br> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName><br> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf <br> <br> igor<br> <br> the drafts says<br> <br> "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. <br> Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. <br> " <br> <br> which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..."<br> in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -<br> <br> concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple <Router_ID, te="" router_id="">associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?<br> <br> thanks,<br> -d.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> <br> <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> 09/03/2007 16:05<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br> <br> <dbrungard@att.com>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br> <br> <br> Dimitri,<br> <br> > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br> <br> no<br> <br> > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br> <br> no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br> <br> IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the<br> RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br> <br> In RFC 3630 we read:<br> "<br> 2.5.2. Link ID<br> <br> <br> <br> The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br> <br> point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br> <br> "<br> <br> Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br> <br> (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the<br> neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end <br> of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not <br> advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.<br> <br> Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:<br> "<br> 2.4.1. Router Address TLV<br> <br> The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<br> advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<br> connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<br> address". The key attribute is that the address does not become<br> unusable if an<br> interface is down. In other protocols, this is known<br> as the "router ID"<br> <br> I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is <br> advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to <br> advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is <br> the TE Router ID.<br> <br> The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID <br> of the remote TE node. <br> <br> The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs <br> supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be <br> proposed in your draft<br> <br> ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br> <br> real difference)<br> <br> IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br> am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br> support G.8080 <br> <br> Igor<br> <br> pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br> your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br> <br> hope this helps,<br> -d.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> <br> 09/03/2007 00:03<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br> <br> Subject: Re: Two questions on <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br> <br> <br> Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br> <br> You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br> <br> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br> difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br> <br> why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br> may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br> identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br> Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br> <br> BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br> <br> Igor<br> <br> PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br> to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br> it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br> from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br> to make.<br> <br> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br> igor<br> <br> <br> pls use version (or 03 <br> when available to make comments)<br> <br> in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br> <br> " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br> (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br> appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br> defined in [RFC3630]. "<br> <br> now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br> <br> <br> par.5.2<br> but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br> <br> hope this helps,<br> -d.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> <br> 08/03/2007 22:11<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br> <br> Subject: Two questions on <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br> <br> <br> Dimitri,<br> I have a couple questions wrt the <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br> In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br> local and remote TE Router ID:<br> <br> 0 1 2 3 <br> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | 17 | Length | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Local TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Remote TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> <br> Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br> Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? <br> Isnââ'¬â"¢t <br> this is <br> the same<br> information <br> that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br> In 6. you write:<br> <br> ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br> The limit of the subdivision results in<br> a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single <br> link.ââ'¬Â<br> <br> In G.8080 I read:<br> ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP <br> links <br> <br> that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br> links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br> routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br> results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â<br> <br> Why is the discrepancy?<br> <br> Thanks,<br> Igor<br> <br> <br> [<br> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br> <br> <br> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br> <br> <br> <br> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br> <br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></Router_ID,></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <p>  <hr size=1> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL"> Get your own web address.</a><br> Have a HUGE year through <a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL">Yahoo! Small Business.</a> --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:57 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:29:03 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455B9@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdhGJs8Q55rjPcBQRqgAiexB0313AAwUGQg From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by=20 the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs,=20 then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as=20 a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution"=20 reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC=20 o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID"=20 relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward)=20 the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs)=20 note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship=20 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 =20 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>,=20 "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN"=20 <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome.=20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:20 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:22:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455AE@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf thread-index: AcdiZJayIrbSAqAIRcuA2I0DinCWSgAEzKwg From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly = once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the = remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is = associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not = apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple <Router_ID, TE Router_ID> associations in different LSAs i = don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:14:28 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xAvc16ICVSJxTcxRnwZ2xwHf17WAB5aKMWWHM8DP90bD303K8yaM7cJMxnG1GCM8s3edHi1Oh18Nx5vVL0dKHNsYLUoh4D1lP8BwUxsoQYjxdObhJpwRezrLvRfrfEySiJP7KrIG2rOMH5IH+4+o1Q26TTLdzTlkCazyzL+Lrhs= ; Message-ID: <20070309181319.55625.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-635280490-1173463999=:55319" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear. Igor "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> wrote: Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link. In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear.<br><br>Igor<br><br><b><i>"BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Hi Igor,<br><br>To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask:<br>"In 6. you write:<br>A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.<br> <br>In G.8080 I read:<br>.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork.<br>Why is the discrepancy?"<br><br>And you continued to say in your follow up mail:<br>"IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br>am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br>support G.8080"<br><br>CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated.<br><br>Deborah <br> <br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] <br>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM<br>To: Igor Bryskin<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf <br><br>igor<br><br>the drafts says<br><br>"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. <br>Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly <br>once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. <br>" <br><br>which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the <br>remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is <br>associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the <br>remote RC..."<br>in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not <br>apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -<br><br>concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple <br><Router_ID, te="" router_id=""> associations in different LSAs i don't where the <br>problem is ?<br><br>thanks,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>09/03/2007 16:05<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><dbrungard@att.com><br> Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br><br>no<br><br>> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br><br>no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case <br>the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br><br>IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the <br>RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br><br>In RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.5.2. Link ID<br><br><br><br> The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For<br><br> point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br><br>"<br><br>Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br><br>(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the<br> neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end <br>of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not <br>advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.<br> <br>Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:<br>"<br>2.4.1. Router Address TLV<br> <br> The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<br> advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<br> connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<br> address". The key attribute is that the address does not become<br> unusable if an<br> interface is down. In other protocols, this is known<br> as the "router ID"<br> <br>I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is <br>advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to <br>advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is <br>the TE Router ID.<br> <br>The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID <br>of the remote TE node. <br> <br>The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs <br>supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be <br>proposed in your draft<br> <br>ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br><br>real difference)<br> <br>IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I <br>am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to <br>support G.8080 <br> <br>Igor<br><br>pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br>your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>09/03/2007 00:03<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br><br>You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br><br>Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br>difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br><br>why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br>may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br>identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br>Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br><br>BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br>to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br>it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br>from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br>to make.<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br><br>pls use version (or 03 <br>when available to make comments)<br><br>in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br><br>" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br>(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br>appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br>defined in [RFC3630]. "<br><br>now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br><br><br>par.5.2<br>but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>08/03/2007 22:11<br><br>To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><br>Subject: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br>I have a couple questions wrt the <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br>local and remote TE Router ID:<br><br>0 1 2 3 <br>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| 17 | Length | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Local TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br>| Remote TE Router Identifier | <br>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br><br>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br>Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? <br>Isnââ'¬â"¢t <br>this is <br>the same<br>information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br>In 6. you write:<br><br>ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br>a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single <br>link.ââ'¬Â<br><br>In G.8080 I read:<br>ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP <br>links <br><br>that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br>links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br>routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br>results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â<br><br>Why is the discrepancy?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Igor<br><br><br>[<br>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br><br><br> <br> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br><br></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></Router_ID,></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>Now that's room service! <a href="http://travel.yahoo.com/hotelsearchpage;_ylc=X3oDMTFtaTIzNXVjBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BF9zAzI3MTk0ODEEcG9zAzIEc2VjA21haWx0YWdsaW5lBHNsawNxMS0wNw-- ">Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel</a> to find your fit. --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:35:12 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:33:42 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC83A1D@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Thread-Index: AcdiY4pW+jwPHP13TKWVfZ98DTSzMQABfzOw From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd = question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the = subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks = interconnected by a single link. =20 In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links = that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP = links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller = routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision = results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition = in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's = Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used = the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by = an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did = not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be = [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly=20 once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the=20 remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is=20 associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the=20 remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not=20 apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple=20 <Router_ID, TE Router_ID> associations in different LSAs i don't where = the=20 problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the=20 RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:57:19 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF0C52175B.67E7473E-ONC1257299.00567647-C1257299.00579190@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:56:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQp0aGUgZHJhZnRzIHNheXMNCg0KIk5vdGU6IFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYgdGhh dCBpZGVudGlmaWVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIGxpbmsgKGkuZS4gDQpSb3V0ZXIgSUQg b2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yIGZvciBwb2ludC10by1wb2ludCBsaW5rcykgTVVTVCBhcHBlYXIgZXhh Y3RseSANCm9uY2UgcGVyIExpbmsgVExWLiBUaGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYgTVVTVCBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQg YXMgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiBbUkZDMzYzMF0uIA0KIiANCg0Kd2hpY2ggaXMgZXhhY3RseSB3aGF0IHlv 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a2VyLXB1bmNoIHNwYW0gd2l0aCBhd2FyZC13aW5uaW5nIHByb3RlY3Rpb24uDQpUcnkgdGhlIGZy ZWUgWWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4NCg0KDQpOb3cgdGhhdCdzIHJvb20gc2VydmljZSEgQ2hvb3Nl IGZyb20gb3ZlciAxNTAsMDAwIGhvdGVscyANCmluIDQ1LDAwMCBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbnMgb24gWWFo b28hIFRyYXZlbCB0byBmaW5kIHlvdXIgZml0Lg0KDQoNCiANCiBTdWNrZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3 aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJlZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBC ZXRhLg0KDQo= Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:07:33 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Y9KUu5NBZ5aqMZp+atovJzV27nS9W9Sq82gqbwp4aD2TAMmUR5S8zlNo1yEv0Ari6qe2ZgD4Bymcm1pX0vbeXdqw9hGO8GVVsRKv9ZwsMv4n9TST96AyB0H4cBP3Yf56+OX5EygEHdzzI1/G9z+sf0jmrrZuMQUTYXsckfCYD8s= ; Message-ID: <20070309150502.93330.qmail@web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-421440143-1173452702=:92923" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: “ 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ¬â¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ¬â¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ¬ÅA RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ¬Å.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><br> > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? <br> <br> no<br> <br> > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,<br> <br> no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case <br> the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"<br> <br> IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.<br> <br> In RFC 3630 we read:<br> "<o:p></o:p></div> <pre>2.5.2.<span style=""> </span>Link ID<br><br><br><br><span style=""> </span>The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link.<span style=""> </span>For<br><br><span style=""> </span>point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.<br><br>"<br><br>Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID <br><br>(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:</pre><pre>“</pre><pre>2.4.1.<span style=""> </span>Router Address TLV<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>advertising router that is always reachable if there is any<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>address".<span style=""> </span>The key attribute is that the address does not become<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>unusable if an interface is down.<span style=""> </span>In other protocols, this is known<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>as the "router ID"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID.</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. </pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre> <div class="MsoNormal">ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no <br> real difference)</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Igor<br> <br> pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing <br> your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable <br> <br> hope this helps,<br> -d.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Igor Bryskin <br> <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>09/03/2007 00:03<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br> <br> <dbrungard@att.com>Subject: Re: Two questions on <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br> <br> <br> Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br> <br> You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br> <br> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the <br> difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain <br> why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router <br> may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly <br> identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of <br> Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br> <br> BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br> <br> Igor<br> <br> PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding <br> to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view <br> it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece <br> from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying <br> to make.<br> <br> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br> igor<br> <br> <br> pls use version (or 03 <br> when available to make comments)<br> <br> in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br> <br> " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br> (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br> appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br> defined in [RFC3630]. "<br> <br> now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br> <br> par.5.2<br> but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br> <br> hope this helps,<br> -d.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Igor Bryskin <br> 08/03/2007 22:11<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br> <br> Subject: Two questions on <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br> <br> <br> Dimitri,<br> I have a couple questions wrt the <br> draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br> In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br> local and remote TE Router ID:<br> <br> 0 1 2 3 <br> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | 17 | Length | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Local TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Remote TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> <br> Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br> Router ID, I donââ¬â¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ¬â¢t <br> this is <br> the same<br> information <br> that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br> In 6. you write:<br> <br> ââ¬ÅA RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br> The limit of the subdivision results in<br> a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ¬Â<br> <br> In G.8080 I read:<br> ââ¬Å.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links <br> <br> that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br> links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br> routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br> results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ¬Â<br> <br> Why is the discrepancy?<br> <br> Thanks,<br> Igor<br> <br> <br> [<br> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br> <br> <br> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.<br> <br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <p>  <hr size=1><a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html">Sucker-punch spam</a> with award-winning protection.<br> Try the <a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html">free Yahoo! Mail Beta.</a> --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 06:54:30 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:51:49 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB6066806BF@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdh2m3ujezg3B6pRb6aq4HognxrVgAMF+3Q From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Dimitri, =20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Sent: 08 March 2007 23:34 >=20 > igor=20 >=20 > "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must=20 > consider=20 > mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." >=20 > this statement is fundamentally incorrect, NH=3D> You are correct, but for a different reason that you seem to talk about below. GMPLS is a suite of control-plane protocols...a server layer control-plane does not support/create client layer network topology, it is the server layer *data-plane* that does that job. I attempted to explain a few days ago why a p2p bidirectionally congruent server layer *data-plane* construct is THE atomic building block for client topology creation (any client)...and I tried to show an example here from fault management (eg OAM, prot-sw) considerations why this is important. As a thought experiment try constructing a client layer topology from anything other than p2p server layer building blocks. The way native cl-ps mode Ethernet works however makes this (bidirectionally congruent server requirement) rather obvious/important anyway IMO....which is the point Igor is making above, so he is actually correct in this respect. And this has nothing to do with whether one uses a GMPLS control-plane in the server layer network or not, it is only relevant to the server layer data-plane. regards, Neil > the association of control=20 > plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet=20 > constraints, > one may device control plane techniques that are=20 > facilitating=20 > operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the=20 > way nodes are=20 > performing such association >=20 > as i wrote a couple of days ago >=20 > "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. > these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 07/03/2007 15:34 > =20 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL,=20 > Adrian Farrel=20 > <adrian@olddog.co.uk> > cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,=20 > ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>,=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay"=20 > <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was:=20 > Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri. >=20 > See in-line. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for=20 > asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 >=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 >=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 >=20 >=20 > IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet > functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional=20 > service is mapped=20 > on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I=20 > hear from our=20 > local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by=20 > GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional=20 > LSPs. This=20 > is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion.=20 > Bi-directional=20 > LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical=20 > layers. But I do=20 > agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples=20 > presented=20 > just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services.=20 >=20 > Igor >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" ,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > cc:=20 > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure=20 > what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in=20 > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one=20 > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a=20 > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of=20 > control plane state in one direction must cause the removal=20 > of control plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling)=20 > obviously=20 > makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 > signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it=20 > just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not=20 > guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail.=20 > This issue=20 > is=20 > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 > directions=20 > can=20 > be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a=20 > failure might=20 > only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and=20 > seem=20 > to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the=20 > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > Cc:=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one=20 > better uses separate sessions for the two directions since=20 > all the benefits of having a single session (like fate=20 > sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 > only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of=20 > the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if=20 > one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 > direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the=20 > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating=20 > a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point,=20 > the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a=20 > single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a=20 > requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as=20 > Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case=20 > asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 > session. Several people have pointed out this is also=20 > achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at=20 > each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I=20 > will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind=20 > more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data=20 > forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are=20 > efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On=20 > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to=20 > specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros=20 > and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already=20 > a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 > separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE=20 > session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at=20 > each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a=20 > bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at=20 > one end and/or force the paths to align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding=20 > rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The=20 > requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback=20 > and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in=20 > the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 > granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 > resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes=20 > from the fact that both direction have common resources and=20 > if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:35:13 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF70AD2A6B.37E1C0F3-ONC1257298.008043DD-C1257298.008179EC@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:34:13 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" igor "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." this statement is fundamentally incorrect, the association of control plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet constraints, one may device control plane techniques that are facilitating operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the way nodes are performing such association as i wrote a couple of days ago "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" -d. Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 07/03/2007 15:34 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:10:53 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFFD93731B.C8EDB717-ONC1257298.007EB707-C1257298.007F4BB5@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:10:24 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciwNCg0KPiBJcyB0aGUgTGlua0lEIGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzIFJlbW90ZSBURSBSb3V0ZXIg SUQ/IA0KDQpubw0KDQo+IExpbmtJRCB1bmFtYmlndW9zbHkgaWRlbnRpZmllcyByZW1vdGUgZGF0 YSBwbGFuZSBub2RlLA0KDQpubywgaXQgaWRlbnRpZmllcyB0aGUgcmVtb3RlIFJDIG5vdCB0aGUg cmVtb3RlIGRhdGEgcGxhbmUgIm5vZGUiIGluIGNhc2UgDQp0aGUgcmVtb3RlIFJDIGlzIGFzc29j aWF0ZSB0byBuICJub2RlcyINCg0KDQpwczogc2Vjb25kIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzIHRyaXZpYWwsIG1h dGhlbWF0aWNhbCB2cyBuZXR3b3JraW5nIGZvcm11bGF0aW9uIChubyANCnJlYWwgZGlmZmVyZW5j 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IE5vdyB0aGF0J3Mgcm9vbSBzZXJ2aWNlISBDaG9vc2UgZnJvbSBvdmVyIDE1MCwwMDAgaG90ZWxz IA0KaW4gNDUsMDAwIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9ucyBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVHJhdmVsIHRvIGZpbmQgeW91ciBm aXQuDQoNCg== Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:05:29 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=KlPL/d6aZVXn4+8A5//pQokMsWqC3Md2tAuzsYKTvzd7xWe34hdQyiseJLj/Hee3TkttTOzJgibrucoubdBpz7cedH5juXPczi5EUbRiqmqJFr1o3Xy1Z6J8j5FDgNTaxleNRnzN6ontg9CMSzeEbAeT7YoGkSO5XZScyxRyTKk=; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:03:06 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-889844309-1173394986=:23655" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <308090.23655.qm@web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donât understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnât this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: âA RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â In G.8080 I read: â.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help.<br><br>You didn't answer the first question, which is:<br><br>Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious<br><br>BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make.<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor<br><br><br>pls use version <draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02> (or 03 <br>when available to make comments)<br><br>in that version you will see in Section 5.2<br><br>" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link <br> (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST <br> appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as <br> defined in [RFC3630]. "<br><br>now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of <br>par.5.2<br>but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7<br><br>hope this helps,<br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>08/03/2007 22:11<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <br><dbrungard@att.com><br> Subject: Two questions on <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br> I have a couple questions wrt the <br>draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.<br>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising <br>local and remote TE Router ID:<br> <br> 0 1 2 3 <br> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | 17 | Length | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Local TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> | Remote TE Router Identifier | <br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <br> <br>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE <br>Router ID, I donât understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnât this is <br>the same<br> information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?<br>In 6. you write:<br> <br>âA RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br> a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â<br> <br>In G.8080 I read:<br>â.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links <br>that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP <br>links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller <br>routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision <br>results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â<br> <br>Why is the discrepancy?<br> <br>Thanks,<br>Igor<br> <br><br> [<br> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.<br>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.<br><br></dbrungard@att.com></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>Now that's room service! <a href="http://travel.yahoo.com/hotelsearchpage;_ylc=X3oDMTFtaTIzNXVjBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BF9zAzI3MTk0ODEEcG9zAzIEc2VjA21haWx0YWdsaW5lBHNsawNxMS0wNw-- ">Choose from over 150,000 hotels <br>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel</a> to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:24:03 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFC54AAE42.350F555B-ONC1257298.00751CC2-C1257298.00757EB6@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 22:23:21 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoNCnBscyB1c2UgdmVyc2lvbiA8ZHJhZnQtZGltaXRyaS1jY2FtcC1nbXBscy1hc29u LXJvdXRpbmctb3NwZi0wMj4gKG9yIDAzIA0Kd2hlbiBhdmFpbGFibGUgdG8gbWFrZSBjb21tZW50 cykNCg0KaW4gdGhhdCB2ZXJzaW9uIHlvdSB3aWxsIHNlZSBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDUuMg0KDQoiIE5v dGU6IFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYgdGhhdCBpZGVudGlmaWVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBlbmQgb2Yg dGhlIGxpbmsgDQogICAoaS5lLiBSb3V0ZXIgSUQgb2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yIGZvciBwb2ludC10 by1wb2ludCBsaW5rcykgTVVTVCANCiAgIGFwcGVhciBleGFjdGx5IG9uY2UgcGVyIExpbmsgVExW LiBUaGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYgTVVTVCBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQgYXMgDQogICBkZWZpbmVkIGluIFtSRkMz NjMwXS4gIg0KDQpub3cgd2h5IHRoaXMgc3ViLVRMViAxNywgd2VsbCBmb3IgdGhlIHJlYXNvbiBl eHBsYWluZWQgYXQgdGhlIGJlZ2lubmluZyBvZiANCnBhci41LjINCmJ1dCBhbHNvIGluIFJGQyA0 NjUyIFNlY3Rpb24gNS43DQoNCmhvcGUgdGhpcyBoZWxwcywNCi1kLg0KDQoNCg0KDQpJZ29yIEJy eXNraW4gPGlfYnJ5c2tpbkB5YWhvby5jb20+DQowOC8wMy8yMDA3IDIyOjExDQogDQogICAgICAg IFRvOiAgICAgRGltaXRyaSBQQVBBRElNSVRSSU9VL0JFL0FMQ0FURUxAQUxDQVRFTA0KICAgICAg ICBjYzogICAgIGNjYW1wQG9wcy5pZXRmLm9yZywgIkJydW5nYXJkLCBEZWJvcmFoIEEsIEFMQUJT IiANCjxkYnJ1bmdhcmRAYXR0LmNvbT4NCiAgICAgICAgU3ViamVjdDogICAgICAgIFR3byBxdWVz dGlvbnMgb24gDQpkcmFmdC1kaW1pdHJpLWNjYW1wLWdtcGxzLWFzb24tcm91dGluZy1vc3BmIGRy YWZ0DQoNCg0KRGltaXRyaSwNCiBJIGhhdmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHdydCB0aGUgDQpk cmFmdC1kaW1pdHJpLWNjYW1wLWdtcGxzLWFzb24tcm91dGluZy1vc3BmIGRyYWZ0Lg0KSW4gNS4y IGEgVEUgTGluayBzdWItVExWIGlzIGludHJvZHVjZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlIG9mIGFkdmVy dGlzaW5nIA0KbG9jYWwgYW5kIHJlbW90ZSBURSBSb3V0ZXIgSUQ6DQogDQogIDAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgMSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAyICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDMgDQogICAg IDAgMSAyIDMgNCA1IDYgNyA4IDkgMCAxIDIgMyA0IDUgNiA3IDggOSAwIDEgMiAzIDQgNSA2IDcg OCA5IDAgMSANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAgICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxNyAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIHwgICAgICAgICAgICAgTGVuZ3RoICAgICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAg ICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBMb2NhbCBURSBSb3V0ZXIgSWRlbnRpZmllciAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSst Ky0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAgICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFJlbW90ZSBU RSBSb3V0ZXIgSWRlbnRpZmllciAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSst Ky0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyAN CiANCkFsdGhvdWdoIEkgZG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aHkgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBuZWVkIGZvciBhZHZl cnRpc2luZyB0aGUgTG9jYWwgVEUgDQpSb3V0ZXIgSUQsIEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdo eSB0aGUgUmVtb3RlIFRlIFJvdXRlciBJRD8gSXNu4oCZdCB0aGlzIGlzIA0KdGhlIHNhbWUNCiBp bmZvcm1hdGlvbiANCnRoYXQgaXMgY2FycmllZCBpbiB0aGUgTGluayBJRCBzdWItVExWPw0KSW4g Ni4geW91IHdyaXRlOg0KIA0K4oCcQSBSQSBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBzbWFsbGVyIFJBcyBpbnRlci1j b25uZWN0ZWQgYnkgbGlua3MuIA0KVGhlIGxpbWl0IG9mIHRoZSBzdWJkaXZpc2lvbiByZXN1bHRz IGluDQogYSBSQSB0aGF0IGNvbnRhaW5zIHR3byBzdWItbmV0d29ya3MgaW50ZXJjb25uZWN0ZWQg YnkgYSBzaW5nbGUgbGluay7igJ0NCiANCkluIEcuODA4MCBJIHJlYWQ6DQrigJwuLi4uIEEgcm91 dGluZyBhcmVhIGlzIGRlZmluZWQgYnkgYSBzZXQgb2Ygc3VibmV0d29ya3MsIHRoZSBTTlBQIGxp bmtzIA0KdGhhdCBpbnRlcmNvbm5lY3QgdGhlbSwgYW5kIHRoZSBTTlBQcyByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcg dGhlIGVuZHMgb2YgdGhlIFNOUFAgDQpsaW5rcyBleGl0aW5nIHRoYXQgcm91dGluZyBhcmVhLiBB IHJvdXRpbmcgYXJlYSBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBzbWFsbGVyIA0Kcm91dGluZyBhcmVhcyBpbnRlcmNv bm5lY3RlZCBieSBTTlBQIGxpbmtzLiBUaGUgbGltaXQgb2Ygc3ViZGl2aXNpb24gDQpyZXN1bHRz IGluIGEgcm91dGluZyBhcmVhIHRoYXQgY29udGFpbnMgXW9uZSBzdWJuZXR3b3JrLuKAnQ0KIA0K V2h5IGlzIHRoZSBkaXNjcmVwYW5jeT8NCiANClRoYW5rcywNCklnb3INCiANCg0KIFsNCiBTdWNr ZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJl ZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBCZXRhLg0KDQo= Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:13:11 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uTB8zconthTdTG9yhRIgW4n6Y4B0UPdVDs+FRxL9heWjQCTGyslebTm4e/xp9pSXk4vE7j5TqyMDDGblh4XWg6IUU2iMrz/yjgWfRGZguXiEn7y1GuTxVDKFd+PqULlSvVnNNZI00H1UDQUVl1549iafTnbQkH1QCRROd11pOas=; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-988701227-1173388302=:36530" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <632483.36530.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I dont understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnt this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link. In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor --------------------------------- [ --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p>I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.</div> <pre>In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID:</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>0<span style=""> </span>1<span style=""> </span>2<span style=""> </span>3 <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>|<span style=""> </span>17<span style=""> </span>|<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>Length<span style=""> </span>| <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>|<span style=""> </span>Local TE Router Identifier<span style=""> </span>| <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>|<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>Remote TE Router Identifier<span style=""> </span>| <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=""> </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I dont understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnt this is the same information <br>that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?</pre><pre>In 6. you write:</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. <br>The limit of the subdivision results in<br> a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>In G.8080 I read:</pre> <div class="MsoNormal">.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains <span class="MsoCommentReference"><span style="font-size: 8pt;"><!--[if !supportAnnotations]--><a class="msocomanchor" id="_anchor_1" onmouseover="msoCommentShow('_anchor_1','_com_1')" onmouseout="msoCommentHide('_com_1')" href="#_msocom_1" language="JavaScript" name="_msoanchor_1">]</a><span style="display: none;"><span style=""></span></span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(51, 153, 102);">one</span> subnetwork.</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <pre>Why is the discrepancy?</pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Thanks,</pre><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre> <div style=""><!--[if !supportAnnotations]--> <hr class="msocomoff" align="left" size="1" width="33%"> <!--[endif]--> <div style=""><!--[if !supportAnnotations]--> <div id="_com_1" class="msocomtxt" language="JavaScript" onmouseover="msoCommentShow('_anchor_1','_com_1')" onmouseout="msoCommentHide('_com_1')"><!--[endif]--><span style=""><!--[if !supportAnnotations]--><a name="_msocom_1"></a><!--[endif]--></span> <div class="MsoCommentText"><span class="MsoCommentReference"><span style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-GB"><span style=""> <!--[if !supportAnnotations]--><a href="#_msoanchor_1" class="msocomoff">[</a></span></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></div> <!--[if !supportAnnotations]--></div> <!--[endif]--></div> </div> <p>  <hr size=1><a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html">Sucker-punch spam</a> with award-winning protection.<br> Try the <a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html">free Yahoo! Mail Beta.</a> --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:55:10 +0000 Message-ID: <183701c761a2$25815e60$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Draft agenda posted Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:52:15 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One agenda file contains the agendas for both meetings. http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/agenda/ccamp.htm Please comment. Please send us your slides before the end of Friday 16th. Adrian and Deborah Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:06:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:47 +0800 From: Dan Li <danli@huawei.com> Subject: draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt To: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Deborah A. Brungard" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Farrel, Adrian" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Arun Satyanarayana <asatyana@cisco.com> Message-id: <013901c7614f$c7852190$a04d460a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear CCAMPers, A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: - MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft - Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to widen the scope of applicability to single-node & multi-node - Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Regards, Dan Li Advanced Technology Department Wireline Networking Business Unit Huawei Technologies Co., LTD. Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang, Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China Tel: +86-755-28973237 Fax: +86-755-28972935 *************************************************************************************** This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! *************************************************************************************** --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>Dear CCAMPers, <BR><BR>A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published:<BR><A href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt</A></DIV> <DIV><BR>Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: <BR>- <SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft </SPAN><BR>- Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to <SPAN lang=EN-US>widen the scope of applicability to single-node & </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">multi-node</SPAN></DIV> <DIV>- Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author<BR><BR>Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR></DIV> <DIV>Dan Li</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Advanced Technology Department<BR>Wireline Networking Business Unit<BR>Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.<BR>Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,<BR>Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China<BR>Tel: +86-755-28973237<BR>Fax: +86-755-28972935<BR>***************************************************************************************<BR>This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!<BR>***************************************************************************************<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML> --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:31 +0000 To: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com> Cc: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF620E3304.0D5E5D34-ONC1257297.006C25C3-C1257298.00029273@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:28:05 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" zafar - o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been provided since so far ? o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? thanks, -d. "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 02/03/2007 00:41 To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com> Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share. The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this. The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call. Thanks Regards... Zafar Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:23 +0000 To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> Cc: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF0635751C.8C00961F-ONC1257297.0081D0B7-C1257298.00026E52@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:26:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:32:54 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:28:50 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C308E@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbAABHKngA== From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. =20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:29:48 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:28:11 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC3FE4C@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbA= From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:52:32 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Message-Id: <E1HP35I-00033Z-8O@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:04 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Traffic Engineering Database Management Information Base in support of GMPLS Author(s) : T. Nadeau, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2007-3-7 This memo defines the Management Information Base (MIB) objects in order to manage traffic engineering database (TED) information with extension in support of Multi-protocol label switching (MPLS) as well as Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) for use with network management protocols. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:46:36 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:43:49 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DF212AC@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOKamNpQzXbsWS/WkAJ3lHwtNaQAAJ0NQ From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Hi Dimitri=20 Inline [DF] > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 [DF] I agree.=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples [DF] Two points. The GMPLS for Ethernet Provider Backbone Bridges-TE is hardly a micro flow but you are correct that at high bandwidth levels it would likely be symmetric BW.=20 >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) [DF] Sorry I'm missing your point here.=20 >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 [DF] I don't agree on the efficiency point. By any measure of efficiency a single RSVP-TE session that handles both directions and possibly different bandwidths is better that 2 that do 1/2 the job each. If bandwidth is the same, in each direction today we don't need an extension. Igor gave a nice summary. =20 BTW I do believe that there will be an association object to correlate at the very least primary and back-up bi-directional LSP. I agree an association object can manage 2 RSVP-TE uni-directional sessions for a full bi-directional connection, and while there is some merit to not extending current BW semantics there are also a set of new correlation rules that have not been implemented.=20 So if we enumerate the GMPLS LSP building block possibilities I see:=20 Unidirectional LSP with BW (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session=20 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session can be used by existing GMPLS=20 Asymmetric BW bi-directional LSP (not yet defined). - 2 Unidirectional LSPs with BW + an association object need to be used plus a set of extensions to path correlation=20 OR=20 - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP can be used and no BW objects (many MPLS TE sessions have no real BW in the control plane) OR - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP a bi-directional BW object.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 <snip>=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:38:06 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:35:41 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C2F6C@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAg From: "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:51:36 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Message-Id: <E1HOyOw-0006U6-IE@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Graceful Shutdown in GMPLS Traffic Engineering Networks Author(s) : Z. Ali, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2007-3-7 GMPLS-TE Graceful shutdown is a method for explicitly notifying the nodes in a Traffic Engineering (TE) enabled network that the TE capability on a link or on an entire Label Switching Router (LSR) is going to be disabled. GMPLS-TE graceful shutdown mechanisms are tailored towards addressing the planned outage in the network. This document provides requirements and protocol mechanisms so as to reduce/eliminate traffic disruption in the event of a planned shutdown of a network resource. These operations are equally applicable for both MPLS and its GMPLS extensions. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:37:03 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sxAsnJPxy/+rLw4NhUjpKWfcFY6Q1XRBACHcQTFTuhcnXokcNJmua+RHo5UeEC16RZQhkoH3i0Na8glB1cosocVTTuS9rNC2cgNgXX0DDA+Ju651k2JpWWWeRlTRQUmx/3yvB9Rha+xDKBiABVPcHeyO1myAy49S2RNEzJrwyoc= ; Message-ID: <20070307143418.50872.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri.<br><br>See in-line.<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> adrian, all<br><br>the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services"<br>but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" <br><br>when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would <br>surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the <br>network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS <br>is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable <br>devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where <br>mentioning in their examples<br><br>i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several <br>specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not <br>going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether <br>one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability <br>at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is <br>one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)<br><br>hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in <br>favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single <br>signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to <br>hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means <br>if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach <br>would be workable <br><br><br>IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. <br><br>Igor<br><br>-d.<br><br><br> <br><br><br><br><br><br>"Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk><br>Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>06/03/2007 12:05<br>Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"<br> <br> To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <br>"Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <br><dwfedyk@nortel.com><br> cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org><br> Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions <br>on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure <br>what problem we are trying to solve.<br><br>- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one<br> direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?<br><br>- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one<br> direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a<br> switch-over of the other direction, too?<br><br>- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control<br> plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control<br> plane state in the other direction?<br><br>The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) <br>obviously <br>makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated <br>signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs <br>additional message exchanges.<br><br>The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements <br><br>of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not <br>guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue <br>is <br>not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions <br>can <br>be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might <br>only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.<br><br>End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and <br>seem <br>to be beyond this debate.<br><br><br>So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of <br>asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:<br>- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services<br>- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the<br> cost of new signaling objects and procedures?<br><br>Adrian<br><br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com><br>To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" <br><dwfedyk@nortel.com><br>Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org><br>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM<br>Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi Vijay,<br><br>let me answer this.<br><br>If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will<br>need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate<br>sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a<br>single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different<br>routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property<br>of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.<br><br>Regards,<br>Attila<br><br>________________________________<br><br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On<br>Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay<br>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<br>To: Don Fedyk<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br><br>Don,<br><br>The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one<br>direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction<br>probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).<br><br>So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the<br>forward and reverse direction. Am I right?<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Vijay<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<br>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM<br>To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Questions on<br>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi Vijay<br><br><br>________________________________<br><br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay<br>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<br>To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Questions on<br>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>I have some basic questions, primarily trying to<br>understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a<br>requirement.<br><br>1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric<br>Bandwidth requirement?<br><br>The postulation was that GMPLS today supports<br>bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a<br>bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical<br>TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates<br>setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like<br>many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an<br>implementation.)<br><br>So to your question besides bandwidth there is also<br>underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and<br>support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A<br>single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other<br>words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is<br>also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each<br>end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge<br>the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the<br>technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and<br>there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On<br>the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the<br>asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple<br>sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D<br>ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)<br><br>| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP<br>Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?<br><br>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow<br>bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate<br>RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated<br>with the primary bidirectional LSP.<br><br>3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make<br>sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)<br>and eventually signal them independently as well?<br><br><br>Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of<br>the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &<br>LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric<br>path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to<br>align.<br><br>4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse<br>flows to be on the same path?<br><br><br>That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my<br>case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data<br>plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require<br>bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to<br>support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and<br>bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.<br><br>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this<br>in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<br><br><br>Yes it is related. A shared resource link group<br>identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have<br>shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths<br>have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the<br>shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common<br>resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.<br><br>Regards,<br>Don<br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Vijay<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></ccamp@ops.ietf.org></dwfedyk@nortel.com></Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com></Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com></ccamp@ops.ietf.org></dwfedyk@nortel.com></Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com></Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com></adrian@olddog.co.uk></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>8:00? 8:25? 8:40? <a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news"> Find a flick</a> in no time<br> with the<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news">Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.</a> --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:08:21 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:05:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E3BA@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8CgAA/xJ9A= From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com> To: <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> John....tend to agree with these points. The only truly recursive topological construct is p2p.....one can almost consider this as THE topological atomic building block of hierarchy (ie a client/server layer network relationship). This becomes quite evident when we consider the fact that a link connection in layer network N is provided by a trail in layer network N-1...a relationship which is clearly recursive across a stack of nested layer networks. Now a p2mp construct (like a p2p construct) is also a connection (Note - A trail is specific p2p relationship, so in a p2mp connection a trail exists between the root and each leaf). However mp2p and mp2mp constructs are not connections. As previously noted, one can only recursively construct topology with a p2p connection. So if we want to create p2mp connections (and we will) these should only exist at the very top of a network stack in the context of a some service instance, ie we cannot use p2mp connections (and certainly not mp2p and mp2mp constructs) for recursive topology creation. Why is this important?=20 Well, its all about deterministic resource assignment and management....and this plays through to a whole raft of practical considerations (eg OAM/fault management, performance/SLAs, etc) that should be important to operators and their customers (which can be other operators). The key point about a connection is that it must only have a single source and no internal routing once created....this is essentially a definition of a connection, and it comes from information theory considerations of resource determinism. Connections do not (obviously) exist in the cl-ps mode. In the co-cs mode connections can be created using time (eg SDH/PDH), freq (eg WDM) and space (eg per fibre) dimension resource partitions. In the co-ps mode connections can only be practically created by resource partitioning of the time dimension. Note that the key difference between the co-cs and co-ps mode in the time dimension is one of regular or irregular (respectively) partitioning of resource. What this essentially means is that labelling and resource assignment are coupled/fixed processes and always deterministic in the co-cs mode but not in the co-ps mode. This has many immediate practical consequences too, eg one can't create mp2p constructs in the co-cs mode but one can in the co-ps mode. Aside=3D> A practical consideration (but not axiomatic to its = definition) is that once created a connection is only consciously moved by (i) a customer request (most obvious for SVC case), (ii) from failures (eg prot-sw) or (iii) by premeditated planned works. Counter example: If we add nodes/links to a cl-ps mode network than traffic can move at will under the routing rules of the IGP, but this is not true (or should not be true) in co-ps and co-cs mode networks....nothing intrinsically wrong with that, its purely a function of the connection object and how this must be defined wrt BOTH labelling and resource assignment considerations. And a key point to grasp in all this is that the 3 network modes are quite different and it is folly to try and treat them all identically alike. Now, the above was what I was hinting at in my last mail to Igor wrt to the point about the binding of CV OAM messages (forward defect-detection) and BDI OAM messages (backward defect-detection indication) for fault management. It's quite an important point, and its why in a client/server relationship for creating topology we require congruent bidirectional routings of the symmetric atomic p2p connection building block. regards, Neil > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E > Sent: 06 March 2007 22:24 > To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri, >=20 > I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this=20 > application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where=20 > there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with=20 > contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would=20 > be correlated with the Association object. >=20 > This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the=20 > re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable=20 > control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling=20 > is only between the containing LSP endpoints. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > John=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > > To: Adrian Farrel > > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > > adrian, all > >=20 > > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional services"=20 > > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > > LSPs?" > >=20 > > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it > > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > > mentioning in their examples > >=20 > > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are > > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > > whole discussion) > >=20 > > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing > > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be=20 > workable=20 > >=20 > > -d. > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> > > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > 06/03/2007 12:05 > > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > =20 > > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > > <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, > > "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk"=20 > > <dwfedyk@nortel.com> > > cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > > [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I > > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. > >=20 > > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? > >=20 > > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > > switch-over of the other direction, too? > >=20 > > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > > plane state in the other direction? > >=20 > > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > > additional message exchanges. > >=20 > > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide > > some elements=20 > >=20 > > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that > > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. > >=20 > > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different > > level and seem to be beyond this debate. > >=20 > >=20 > > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > > has reduced to: > > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? > >=20 > > Adrian > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> > > To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" > > <dwfedyk@nortel.com> > > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay, > >=20 > > let me answer this. > >=20 > > If you need different protection for each direction then you > > likely will > > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 > different > > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > > bandwidth property > > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Attila > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > > To: Don Fedyk > > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Don, > >=20 > > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one=20 > > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction=20 > > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). > >=20 > > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for=20 > the forward=20 > > and reverse direction. Am I right? > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application > > behind such a > > requirement. > >=20 > > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > > Bandwidth requirement? > >=20 > > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a=20 > > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical=20 > > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates=20 > > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric=20 > LSP. (Like=20 > > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > > implementation.) > >=20 > > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying=20 > > requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and > > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does=20 > today. A > > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > > LSP. In other > > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > > out this is > > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions=20 > (one at each > > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > > acknowledge > > the authors had a single session in mind more as a=20 > requirement of the > > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional=20 > symmetric and > > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > > bi-directional LSP. On > > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) > >=20 > > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? > >=20 > > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate=20 > > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > > associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. > >=20 > > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation=20 > at each end)=20 > > and eventually signal them independently as well? > >=20 > >=20 > > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session &=20 > > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional=20 > symmetric=20 > > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to=20 > > align. > >=20 > > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > > flows to be on the same path? > >=20 > >=20 > > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data=20 > > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both=20 > > require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is=20 > to be able=20 > > to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace=20 > functions and > > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. > >=20 > > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? > >=20 > >=20 > > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared > > paths have > > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. =20 > Disjoint paths > > have none or very few shared resources. For a=20 > bidirectional path the > > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Don > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:25:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:24:06 -0800 Message-ID: <626FC7C6A97381468FB872072AB5DDC8C2E33D@XCH-SW-42.sw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8Cg From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Dimitri, I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would be correlated with the Association object. This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling is only between the containing LSP endpoints. Thanks, John=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > To: Adrian Farrel > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it=20 > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > =20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk"=20 > <dwfedyk@nortel.com> > cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> > To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk"=20 > <dwfedyk@nortel.com> > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:46:14 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFB7138123.4D4580B6-ONC1257296.00711A23-C1257296.00777034@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:44:40 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable -d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:49:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:13 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B5834A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: AcdgB2D9Ae1SUgPlTI+XvANRWuNJWwAF8lHA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor, =20 I think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new example: central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but different bw needs for up/down streams. =20 Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how one defines "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to provide bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co routed LSPs issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20 =20 Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:52 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:=20 Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news>=20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news>=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1589" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Hi=20 Igor,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>I=20 think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine=20 granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new = example:=20 central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it=20 seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but = different bw needs for up/down streams.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how = one defines=20 "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to = provide=20 bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co = routed LSPs=20 issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20 </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D269174218-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Attila</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 4:52=20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, = Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: What is = this=20 fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV>Adrian,<BR><BR>I would define "fate sharing" very simply: = it is the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products:<BR>a) CP states for both directions could be always = combined=20 together with the summary state reduced in size;<BR>b) the management = of both=20 directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling = messages,=20 This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, = re-route<BR>c)=20 number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much<BR><BR>My understanding = is that=20 we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet = switched=20 network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to = migrate=20 from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate = of such=20 migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM = LABEL,=20 UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).<BR><BR>I have just one question to the = authors=20 of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service = requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions = and=20 fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the=20 bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind = a copule=20 of extra signaling objects.<BR><BR>Igor<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Hi,<BR><BR>There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure = <BR>what=20 problem we are trying to solve.<BR><BR>- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one<BR>direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?<BR><BR>- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one<BR>direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a<BR>switch-over of the other direction, too?<BR><BR>- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control<BR>plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control<BR>plane state in the other=20 direction?<BR><BR>The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously <BR>makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated <BR>signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs <BR>additional message exchanges.<BR><BR>The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements <BR>of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 <BR>guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is <BR>not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can <BR>be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might <BR>only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.<BR><BR>End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem <BR>to be beyond this debate.<BR><BR><BR>So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 <BR>asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:<BR>- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services<BR>- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the<BR>cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- = <BR>From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM><BR>To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" <VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMORENET.COM>; "Don Fedyk"=20 <BR><DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM><BR>Cc: <CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG><BR>Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi Vijay,<BR><BR>let me = answer=20 this.<BR><BR>If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will<BR>need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate<BR>sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a<BR>single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different<BR>routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property<BR>of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Attila<BR><BR>_______________________________= _<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On<BR>Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<BR>To: Don=20 Fedyk<BR>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR><BR>Don,<BR><BR>The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one<BR>direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction<BR>probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).<BR><BR>So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the<BR>forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20 Message-----<BR>From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR>Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM<BR>To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject:=20 RE: Questions on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi=20 Vijay<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR>To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: Questions=20 on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to<BR>understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a<BR>requirement.<BR><BR>1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric<BR>Bandwidth requirement?<BR><BR>The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports<BR>bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a<BR>bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical<BR>TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates<BR>setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like<BR>many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an<BR>implementation.)<BR><BR>So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also<BR>underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and<BR>support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A<BR>single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other<BR>words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is<BR>also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each<BR>end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge<BR>the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the<BR>technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and<BR>there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On<BR>the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the<BR>asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple<BR>sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D<BR>ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)<BR><BR>| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP<BR>Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?<BR><BR>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow<BR>bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate<BR>RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated<BR>with the primary bidirectional LSP.<BR><BR>3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make<BR>sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)<BR>and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?<BR><BR><BR>Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of<BR>the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &<BR>LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric<BR>path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to<BR>align.<BR><BR>4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse<BR>flows to be on the same path?<BR><BR><BR>That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my<BR>case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data<BR>plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require<BR>bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to<BR>support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and<BR>bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.<BR><BR>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this<BR>in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?<BR><BR><BR>Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group<BR>identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have<BR>shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths<BR>have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the<BR>shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common<BR>resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Don<BR><BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR>= <BR><BR></CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG></DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM></VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMOR= ENET.COM></ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> <HR SIZE=3D1> Don't get soaked. Take a<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">=20 quick peak at the forecast </A><BR>with the<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">Yahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:39:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:37:14 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE726EB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB1+pVqrAz8IKQMiWxO1Rz8IXUgAAH5qw From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor =20 Good points. Comments in line. ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:52 AM =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:=20 =20 =20 In Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports on the bridge relay. Both direction of the path must pass through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions below this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link objects". =20 =20 a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.=20 =20 We have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging L2 data plane. The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes bi-directionality. Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional relay. IMHO in that context the answer to your question is yes. =20 =20 In fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the fact we have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different).=20 The need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the Ethernet Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this packet layer is different). =20 The use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video which may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the other but even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for video. So the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news>=20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news>=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi Igor</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Good points. Comments in=20 line.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 10:52=20 AM<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Adrian,<BR><BR>I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is = the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products:<SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>In=20 Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports = on the bridge relay. Both direction of the path must = pass=20 through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions = below=20 this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link=20 objects". </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007> </SPAN><BR>a) CP states = for both=20 directions could be always combined together with the summary state = reduced in=20 size;<BR>b) the management of both directions can be accomplished = using a=20 single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route<BR>c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much<BR><BR>My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer. This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).<BR><BR>I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects.<SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>We=20 have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging = L2 data=20 plane. The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes = bi-directionality.=20 Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional = relay. IMHO=20 in that context the answer to your question is yes. =20 </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>In=20 fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the = fact we=20 have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different). = </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>The=20 need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the = Ethernet=20 Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this = packet=20 layer is different). </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>The=20 use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video = which=20 may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the = other but=20 even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for = video. So=20 the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20 </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D103315515-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Don=20 </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT><BR>Igor<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Hi,<BR><BR>There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure = <BR>what=20 problem we are trying to solve.<BR><BR>- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one<BR>direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?<BR><BR>- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one<BR>direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a<BR>switch-over of the other direction, too?<BR><BR>- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control<BR>plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control<BR>plane state in the other=20 direction?<BR><BR>The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously <BR>makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated <BR>signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs <BR>additional message exchanges.<BR><BR>The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements <BR>of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 <BR>guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is <BR>not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can <BR>be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might <BR>only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.<BR><BR>End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem <BR>to be beyond this debate.<BR><BR><BR>So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 <BR>asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:<BR>- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services<BR>- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the<BR>cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- = <BR>From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM><BR>To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" <VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMORENET.COM>; "Don Fedyk"=20 <BR><DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM><BR>Cc: <CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG><BR>Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi Vijay,<BR><BR>let me = answer=20 this.<BR><BR>If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will<BR>need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate<BR>sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a<BR>single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different<BR>routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property<BR>of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Attila<BR><BR>_______________________________= _<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On<BR>Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<BR>To: Don=20 Fedyk<BR>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR><BR>Don,<BR><BR>The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one<BR>direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction<BR>probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).<BR><BR>So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the<BR>forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20 Message-----<BR>From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR>Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM<BR>To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject:=20 RE: Questions on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi=20 Vijay<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR>To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: Questions=20 on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to<BR>understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a<BR>requirement.<BR><BR>1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric<BR>Bandwidth requirement?<BR><BR>The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports<BR>bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a<BR>bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical<BR>TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates<BR>setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like<BR>many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an<BR>implementation.)<BR><BR>So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also<BR>underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and<BR>support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A<BR>single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other<BR>words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is<BR>also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each<BR>end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge<BR>the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the<BR>technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and<BR>there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On<BR>the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the<BR>asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple<BR>sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D<BR>ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)<BR><BR>| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP<BR>Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?<BR><BR>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow<BR>bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate<BR>RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated<BR>with the primary bidirectional LSP.<BR><BR>3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make<BR>sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)<BR>and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?<BR><BR><BR>Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of<BR>the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &<BR>LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric<BR>path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to<BR>align.<BR><BR>4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse<BR>flows to be on the same path?<BR><BR><BR>That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my<BR>case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data<BR>plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require<BR>bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to<BR>support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and<BR>bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.<BR><BR>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this<BR>in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?<BR><BR><BR>Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group<BR>identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have<BR>shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths<BR>have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the<BR>shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common<BR>resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Don<BR><BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR>= <BR><BR></CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG></DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM></VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMOR= ENET.COM></ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> <HR SIZE=3D1> Don't get soaked. Take a<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">=20 quick peak at the forecast </A><BR>with the<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">Yahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:14:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:13:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E1AD@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB5MvNSkzhD01QDKkO201diGMVgACL7FA From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com> To: <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igor, =20 I can think of one good case. In CO mode layer networks the 2 key OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect Indication). These OAM messages should be present on the trails in each direction. The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to see the failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional connection failure. For this be of use in a link in a layer N network for a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that link, one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any layers. =20 regards, Neil -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: 06 March 2007 15:52 To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:=20 Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay _____ =20 Don't get soaked. Take a <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news> quick peak at the forecast=20 with theYahoo! <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#news> Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D532015616-06032007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = color=3D#800000=20 size=3D2>Igor,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D532015616-06032007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = color=3D#800000=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D532015616-06032007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = color=3D#800000=20 size=3D2>I can think of one good case. In CO mode layer networks = the 2 key=20 OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect = Indication). These OAM messages should be present on the = trails in=20 each direction. The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to = see the=20 failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional=20 connection failure. For this be of use in a link in a layer N = network for=20 a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that = link,=20 one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer=20 networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any=20 layers.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D532015616-06032007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = color=3D#800000=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D532015616-06032007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = color=3D#800000=20 size=3D2>regards, Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr = align=3Dleft><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B>On = Behalf Of=20 </B>Igor Bryskin<BR><B>Sent:</B> 06 March 2007 15:52<BR><B>To:</B> = Adrian=20 Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: What is this fate sharing = thing?=20 [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Adrian,<BR><BR>I = would=20 define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both = directions go=20 through the same links at any time: after setup, protection = switchover,=20 recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service = where=20 opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:<BR>a) CP = states=20 for both directions could be always combined together with the summary = state=20 reduced in size;<BR>b) the management of both directions can be = accomplished=20 using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial = setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route<BR>c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much<BR><BR>My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer. This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).<BR><BR>I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects.<BR><BR>Igor<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Hi,<BR><BR>There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure = <BR>what=20 problem we are trying to solve.<BR><BR>- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one<BR>direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?<BR><BR>- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one<BR>direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a<BR>switch-over of the other direction, too?<BR><BR>- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control<BR>plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control<BR>plane state in the other=20 direction?<BR><BR>The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously <BR>makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated <BR>signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs <BR>additional message exchanges.<BR><BR>The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements <BR>of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 <BR>guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is <BR>not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can <BR>be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might <BR>only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.<BR><BR>End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem <BR>to be beyond this debate.<BR><BR><BR>So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 <BR>asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:<BR>- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services<BR>- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the<BR>cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- = <BR>From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM><BR>To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" <VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMORENET.COM>; "Don Fedyk"=20 <BR><DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM><BR>Cc: <CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG><BR>Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi Vijay,<BR><BR>let me = answer=20 this.<BR><BR>If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will<BR>need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate<BR>sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a<BR>single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different<BR>routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property<BR>of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Attila<BR><BR>_______________________________= _<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On<BR>Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<BR>To: Don=20 Fedyk<BR>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR><BR>Don,<BR><BR>The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one<BR>direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction<BR>probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).<BR><BR>So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the<BR>forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20 Message-----<BR>From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR>Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM<BR>To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject:=20 RE: Questions on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi=20 Vijay<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR>To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR>Subject: Questions=20 on<BR>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to<BR>understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a<BR>requirement.<BR><BR>1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric<BR>Bandwidth requirement?<BR><BR>The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports<BR>bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a<BR>bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical<BR>TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates<BR>setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like<BR>many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an<BR>implementation.)<BR><BR>So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also<BR>underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and<BR>support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A<BR>single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other<BR>words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is<BR>also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each<BR>end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge<BR>the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the<BR>technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and<BR>there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On<BR>the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the<BR>asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple<BR>sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D<BR>ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)<BR><BR>| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP<BR>Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?<BR><BR>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow<BR>bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate<BR>RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated<BR>with the primary bidirectional LSP.<BR><BR>3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make<BR>sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)<BR>and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?<BR><BR><BR>Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of<BR>the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &<BR>LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric<BR>path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to<BR>align.<BR><BR>4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse<BR>flows to be on the same path?<BR><BR><BR>That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my<BR>case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data<BR>plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require<BR>bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to<BR>support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and<BR>bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.<BR><BR>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this<BR>in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?<BR><BR><BR>Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group<BR>identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have<BR>shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths<BR>have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the<BR>shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common<BR>resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Don<BR><BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Vijay<BR><BR><BR>= <BR><BR></CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG></DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM></VIJAY.PANDIAN@SYCAMOR= ENET.COM></ATTILA.TAKACS@ERICSSON.COM></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> <HR SIZE=3D1> Don't get soaked. Take a<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">=20 quick peak at the forecast </A><BR>with the<A=20 = href=3D"http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=3Doni_on_mail&#ne= ws">Yahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:56:20 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:55:28 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE723C8@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf32hi2ZbJp61YSn6x64KVRZdvKwAGSKBw From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Adrian In an Ethernet bridging context I'll try to add what I know.=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Farrel > [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 > 6:05 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Fedyk, > Don (BL60:1A00) Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is > this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" > and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both > directions? [DF]When we say data plane I suppose it depends on the Physical layer as well. I'm not much of an expert on physical layers but I believe we went over much of this in the GMPLS control of optical.=20 For Ethernet bridging, if there is a fault detected in one direction the OAM signals the fault and at a minimum an alarm is raised. I don't believe there is an immediate attempt to interupt data but one result may be to use the indication or activate protection or restoration mechanisms.=20 In Ethernet bridging the Bridge Relay is a bi-drectional functions=20 that is attached to two ports. (below the ports there may be=20 unidirectional links).=20 =20 >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of > one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? [DF]In Ethernet this is the case. Unidirectional Ethernet would not support many Ethernet features.=20 >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of > control plane state in one direction must cause the > removal of control plane state in the other direction? [DF]I don't know if I can parse this. "removal of control plane state in one direction in a bidirectional LSP?" I think you may be refering to the case where two RSVP-TE sessions control a single bi-directional path. The point is the data plane should not be unidirectionally active since this would create issues with OAM functions that assume a bidirectional data plane. =20 >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs > additional message exchanges. [DF]True but in the case of associated case there is also a concept of a master and slave relationship between the associated signaling paths for any given action. This requires new capability as well. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can > provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it > is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For > example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as > the directions can be installed on the path by associated > signaling, and as a failure might only impact one > direction in bidirectional signaling. [DF]The bi-directional aspects are at the L2 Ethernet bridge level. Unidirectional faults are detected as loss of Connectivity check messages or the like and declared the ethernet LSP in fault. What action is taken depends on the choice of configuration and control plane. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. [DF]There could be an association object to implement some aspects of co-ordination between a primary and a backup LSP. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services=20 > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange > outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [DF]The fate sharing aspect is related to the Ethernet bi-directionality. We need bi-directional Ethernet LSPs=20 with (symmetric or asymmetric BW). This requirement is stronger=20 than your first point. Perhaps Fate sharing is not the right or the best term. My understanding of Ethernet is a typically a Spanning tree creates the bi-directional Ethernet paths that have these properties. You can also configure static Ethernet paths that have the same properties.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 <snip> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:53:01 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=53Xw/HaGi3X0IvhTmSpycQvoD41ozge98JXBJ2TTta0zU6EPBVKNbzNe4E/oDlvKdjaGuHXRzLAMBnSAa1yOr80pCXILSuxjm8UF5LnCrJe5Bar92q0gsieTmYr8U0YdzcUngoze0ni5I+eCCHIOU2bzJyUS2xWdjyYf3RiMcWI=; Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-509371772-1173196313=:8128" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian,<br><br>I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:<br>a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size;<br>b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route<br>c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much<br><br>My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).<br><br>I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.<br><br>Igor<br><br><br><b><i>Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Hi,<br><br>There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure <br>what problem we are trying to solve.<br><br>- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one<br> direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?<br><br>- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one<br> direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a<br> switch-over of the other direction, too?<br><br>- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control<br> plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control<br> plane state in the other direction?<br><br>The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously <br>makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated <br>signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs <br>additional message exchanges.<br><br>The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements <br>of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not <br>guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is <br>not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can <br>be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might <br>only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.<br><br>End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem <br>to be beyond this debate.<br><br><br>So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of <br>asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:<br>- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services<br>- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the<br> cost of new signaling objects and procedures?<br><br>Adrian<br><br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com><br>To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" <br><dwfedyk@nortel.com><br>Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org><br>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM<br>Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi Vijay,<br><br>let me answer this.<br><br>If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will<br>need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate<br>sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a<br>single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different<br>routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property<br>of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.<br><br>Regards,<br>Attila<br><br>________________________________<br><br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On<br>Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay<br>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<br>To: Don Fedyk<br>Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br><br>Don,<br><br>The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one<br>direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction<br>probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).<br><br>So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the<br>forward and reverse direction. Am I right?<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Vijay<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<br>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM<br>To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Questions on<br>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi Vijay<br><br><br>________________________________<br><br>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay<br>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<br>To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Questions on<br>draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>I have some basic questions, primarily trying to<br>understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a<br>requirement.<br><br>1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric<br>Bandwidth requirement?<br><br>The postulation was that GMPLS today supports<br>bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a<br>bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical<br>TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates<br>setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like<br>many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an<br>implementation.)<br><br>So to your question besides bandwidth there is also<br>underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and<br>support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A<br>single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other<br>words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is<br>also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each<br>end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge<br>the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the<br>technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and<br>there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On<br>the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the<br>asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple<br>sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D<br>ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)<br><br>| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP<br>Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?<br><br>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow<br>bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate<br>RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated<br>with the primary bidirectional LSP.<br><br>3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make<br>sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)<br>and eventually signal them independently as well?<br><br><br>Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of<br>the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &<br>LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric<br>path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to<br>align.<br><br>4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse<br>flows to be on the same path?<br><br><br>That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my<br>case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data<br>plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require<br>bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to<br>support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and<br>bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.<br><br>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this<br>in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<br><br><br>Yes it is related. A shared resource link group<br>identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have<br>shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths<br>have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the<br>shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common<br>resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.<br><br>Regards,<br>Don<br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Vijay<br><br><br><br><br></ccamp@ops.ietf.org></dwfedyk@nortel.com></Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com></Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1> Don't get soaked. Take a<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news"> quick peak at the forecast </a><br> with the<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news">Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.</a> --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:41:10 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:41:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8CCF@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAAAAKEv8A== From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, Please see in line. =20 Best regards =20 Diego =20 ________________________________ From: Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com]=20 Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 15.36 To: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. [dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be on the same path in = order to work. I'm saying if there is a requirement to have upstream = and downstream on the same path then.... =20 I may not understand the IpTv application, but isn't it true that the = direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is used to send = control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't = it make sense to use a completely different path with a different QoS = for a efficient network resource utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". [dc] Yes=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1. 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts :-)); 2. 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth; 3. 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with = symmetrical bandwidth; 4. 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to = set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same = route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first = one as strict ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use = the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose) 5. 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests = the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing 6. Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished. If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then = the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion :-). 7. IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is = particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In = fact if the service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the = first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this = means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and = re-signaled. =20 8. Best Regards 9. =20 10. Diego =20 11. =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the = scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional = Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; 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mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l9:level8 {mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l9:level9 {mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>Hi Vijay,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Please see = in line.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>Diego<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com] <br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 15.36<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hi Diego,</span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two = directions of this LSP needs to be on the same (physical?) path.</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>[dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be = on the same path in order to work. =A0I’m saying if there is a = requirement to have upstream and downstream on the same path = then….<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>=A0I may not understand the IpTv application, but = isn't it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely different path = with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization?</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Assuming that we end up treating each direction = as independent sessions, can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to = correlate the two connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such = an "ASSOCIATEION".</span></font><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:navy'>[dc] Yes <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Vijay</span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 6:30 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Guys,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'> let = me try to summarize what we have said so far:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber><![if !supportLists]><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span = style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>1</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman";color:blue'> </span></font><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>The basic = idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we all agree that are facts = </span></font><font color=3Dblue face=3DWingdings><span = style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>J</span></font><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>);<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>1.1</span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:blue'> </span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>1.2</span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:blue'> </span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>1.3</span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:blue'> </span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>If, with the existing protocols, there is the need = to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. = IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have to = signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict ERO for the = second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to identify = them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I = suppose)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>1.4</span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:blue'> </span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the Path processing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished. If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the = ID have reason to exists at least for discussion </span></font><font = color=3Dblue face=3DWingdings><span = style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>J</span></font><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>7.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is particularly = useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the = service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be = deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>8.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Best Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>9.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>10.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Diego <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>11.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'>  = ; </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hi Vijay,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>let me answer this. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Attila</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1> </span></font></div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pandian, Vijay<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Don Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Don,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hi Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>Pandian, Vijay<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Hi,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?<font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In = other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>|</span></font><strong><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> = </span></font></b></strong><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes?<font color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. </span></font><font = size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?<font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?<font color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail. </span></font><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Don </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:36:17 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080EF@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv = application, but isn't it true that the direction where you need a small = bandwidth probably is used to send control messages such as "channel = change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely = different path with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:dt =3D=20 "uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882"><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=3DGENERATOR><!--[if !mso]> <STYLE>v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } </STYLE> <![endif]--> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Wingdings; 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MARGIN: 10pt 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-ALIGN: = right } DIV.SubTitle { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 10pt 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-ALIGN: = right } P.DocNo { FONT-SIZE: 6pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-ALIGN: = right } LI.DocNo { FONT-SIZE: 6pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-ALIGN: = right } DIV.DocNo { FONT-SIZE: 6pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-ALIGN: = right } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Hi=20 Diego,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Even=20 for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP needs = to be on=20 the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv application, = but isn't=20 it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to=20 send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that = case, doesn't=20 it make sense to use a completely different path with a different = QoS for a=20 efficient network resource utilization?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Assuming that we end up treating each direction as = independent=20 sessions, can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two=20 connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such an=20 "ASSOCIATEION".</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D463351814-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Vijay</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI)=20 [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March = 06, 2007=20 6:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: = Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=3DSection1> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Guys,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue"> =20 let me try to summarize what we have said so = far:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber><![if !supportLists]><FONT face=3DArial = color=3Dblue=20 size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: blue"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D1><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><![endif]><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue">The basic idea behind the ID is based on some = facts (I=20 hope we all agree that are facts </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DWingdings=20 color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 color=3Dblue><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: = blue">);<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 42.5pt; TEXT-INDENT: = -24.1pt"><![if !supportLists]><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; = COLOR: blue"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1.1<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D1><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> =20 </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><![endif]><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue">Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional = with=20 asymmetric bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 42.5pt; TEXT-INDENT: = -24.1pt"><![if !supportLists]><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; = COLOR: blue"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1.2<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D1><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> =20 </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><![endif]><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue">GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP = with=20 symmetrical bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 42.5pt; TEXT-INDENT: = -24.1pt"><![if !supportLists]><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; = COLOR: blue"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1.3<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D1><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> =20 </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><![endif]><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue">If, with the existing protocols, there is the = need to=20 set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g.=20 IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route = we have=20 to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for=20 the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to = identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj=20 (modified I suppose)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 42.5pt; TEXT-INDENT: = -24.1pt"><![if !supportLists]><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; = COLOR: blue"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1.4<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D1><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> =20 </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><![endif]><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue">Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the=20 LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions.=20 So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP=20 situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the=20 Path processing<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: blue">Now = if all of we=20 are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If someone think = that is=20 better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a bidirectional = service=20 with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for = discussion=20 </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DWingdings color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 color=3Dblue><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: = blue">.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: = blue">IMHO having the=20 possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up the = service=20 establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting = in case=20 of failure. In fact if the service is made of the two LSP what = could=20 happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during = signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP = path=20 recomputed and re-signaled. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: = blue">Best=20 Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><o:p> </o:p></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: = blue">Diego=20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoListNumber=20 style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; TEXT-INDENT: 0cm; mso-list: none"><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3Dblue size=3D2><o:p> </o:p></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Attila Takacs=20 (IJ/ETH)<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> = marted=EC 6=20 marzo 2007 11.35<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: = bold">To:</SPAN></B> Pandian,=20 Vijay; Don Fedyk<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: = bold">Cc:</SPAN></B>=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: = bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>=20 RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2><o:p> </o:p></FONT></P> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Hi=20 Vijay,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">let me answer this.=20 </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">If you need different = protection for each=20 direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this = case one=20 better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the = benefits of=20 having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different=20 routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 RFC3471.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Attila</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Pandian, = Vijay<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 1:36=20 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Don = Fedyk<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt = 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: = medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Don,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">The question I had regarding = P&R=20 was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R = (say=20 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some = basic=20 P&R (say Re-routing).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">So the requirement is to use = the same=20 "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Vijay</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0cm"><P=20 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original=20 Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: = bold">From:</SPAN></B> Don=20 Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41=20 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Pandian, = Vijay;=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Hi = Vijay</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: = 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2><o:p> </o:p></FONT></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=3Dcenter><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; = FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = <B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Pandian,=20 Vijay<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P> <DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I have some basic questions, primarily = trying to=20 understand the scope of this ID as well as the application = behind such a=20 requirement.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1. Does this ID address just an = asymmetric=20 Bandwidth requirement?<FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = blue"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">The postulation was that = GMPLS today=20 supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session = creating a=20 bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is = Optical=20 TDM networks.</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN = style=3D"COLOR: blue">=20 Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an = asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.) </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></= DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align = with=20 GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in = this case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable=20 with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather=20 than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the=20 authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the=20 technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and=20 there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. =20 On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to = specify the=20 asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple=20 sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV= > <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">|</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=20 </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2. How about other = attributes? in=20 particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related=20 attributes?<FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = blue"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">With respect to GMPLS, the = plan was=20 to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs = controlled by=20 separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. = </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: = 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. If P&R are indeed=20 different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and = eventually signal them=20 independently as well?<FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = blue"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Hopefully I addressed part = of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must = have a=20 bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end = and/or=20 force the paths to align. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: = 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">4. Is there a need for the forward and = reverse=20 flows to be on the same path?<FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = blue"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">That is the way an Ethernet = data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes = from.=20 There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: = 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't = find this=20 in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?<FONT=20 color=3Dblue><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: = blue"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Yes it is related. A = shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some = granularity. Fate=20 shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few = shared=20 resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate = comes from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one = fails the=20 other is likely to fail. </SPAN></FONT><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: = blue">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Don=20 </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; = BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: = 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 10pt">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 11pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 10pt">Vijay</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><= /BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:45:14 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:45:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C22@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf4JWp/jby+ZTyRFu1PwDQ0CiX5QAAjl+w From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Some comments in line Best Regards Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05 To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not = sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. [dc] As usual you and Vijay, make a point :-) I also think we need to = clarify what is fate sharing. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? [dc] I think here you are talking about the so called ALS (Automatic = Laser Shutdown) there should b some ITU-T recc about this. I sorry I = forgot the number. - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not = guarantee it.=20 [dc] Yes my understanding of the fate sharing is that upstream and = downstream LSP must follow the same path.=20 For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions = can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might = only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. [dc] Here is where ALS should come in the field. If the fibre is broken = in one direction the ALS should shutdown the laser associated to the = other direction. =20 =20 -------X-----> A B =20 <------------S That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the loss of light due to = the ALS is shutdown the laser (S in the picture) towards A End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and = seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [dc] I've tried to make a summary of the point discussed so far in an = another mail Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk"=20 <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 6.5.7651.59"> <TITLE>RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <!-- Converted from text/rtf format --> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hi Adrian,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> Some = comments in line</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Best Regards</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Diego</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">-----Original Message-----<BR> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel<BR> Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05<BR> To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk<BR> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR> Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hi,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" = and I am not sure </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">what problem we are trying to solve.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">[dc] As usual you</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">and Vijay,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">make a = point</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT FACE=3D"Wingdings" = SIZE=3D2>J</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" = SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> = also think we need to clarify what is fate sharing.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in = one</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> direction must cause data plane interruption in both = directions?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">[dc]</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I think here you are = talking about the so called ALS (Automatic Laser = Shutdown)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" = SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">there should b some ITU-T recc about = this.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" = SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> I sorry I forgot the = number.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of = one</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> direction to its backup path must be accompanied by = a</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> switch-over of the other direction, too?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of = control</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> plane state in one direction must cause the removal of = control</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> plane state in the other direction?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of = associated </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just = needs </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">additional message exchanges.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it = does not </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">guarantee it.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> </SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">[dc] Yes my</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> = <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">understanding</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> of the fate sharing is = that upstream and downstream LSP must follow the same = path.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> </SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is = </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the = directions can </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure = might </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">only impact one direction in bidirectional = signaling.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">[dc]</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Here is where ALS should = come in the field. If the fibre is broken</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">in = one</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">direction</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> the ALS should shutdown = the laser associated to the other direction. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"> </SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New"> </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New"> -------X-----></FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">A</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> &n= bsp; B </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New"> <------------S</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the = loss of light due to the ALS is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">shutdown</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" = SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> the laser (S in the = picture)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" = SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">towards A</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level = and seem </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">to be beyond this debate.</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion = of </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh = the</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"> cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Courier New">[dc] I've</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT = COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">tried</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> to = make a summary of the point discussed so far in an another = mail</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Adrian</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">----- Original Message ----- </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" = <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com></FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">To: "Pandian, Vijay" = <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" = </FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New"><dwfedyk@nortel.com></FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org></FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hi Vijay,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">let me answer this.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having = a</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth = property</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Attila</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">To: Don Fedyk</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Don,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if = one</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse = direction</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">probably required some basic P&R (say = Re-routing).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for = the</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">forward and reverse direction. Am I right?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Vijay</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">-----Original Message-----</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">From: Don Fedyk [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com">mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com</A>]</FONT><= /SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Subject: RE: Questions on</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hi Vijay</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">[<A = HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Subject: Questions on</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hi,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">I have some basic questions, primarily trying to</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind = such a</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">requirement.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Bandwidth requirement?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">The postulation was that GMPLS today supports</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating = a</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is = Optical</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP. (Like</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a = an</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">implementation.)</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">So to your question besides bandwidth there is = also</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does = today. A</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) = LSP. In other</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed = out this is</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at = each</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. On</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify = the</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: = I-D</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">| 2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">with the primary bidirectional LSP.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it = make</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end)</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">and eventually signal them independently as well?</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session = &</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional = symmetric</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths = to</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">align.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">flows to be on the same path?</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet = data</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both = require</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able = to</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions = and</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Yes it is related. A shared resource link = group</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths = have</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">shared resources at a very high level of granularity. = Disjoint paths</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional = path the</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have = common</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Don</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier = New">Vijay</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <BR> <BR> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:35:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19C1A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: Acdf32NH1b2srmy3TdmNji7nUQvlfgAAQ2Cw From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Adrian, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:05 PM > To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. Control plane fate sharing was mentioned as one benefit when having a single session. In this case additional message exchanges are not needed and there are no additional delays which otherwise would be an issue with restoration. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important=20 > to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a=20 > unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted=20 > by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions=20 > can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as=20 > a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 Agreed, the data plane aspects are technology specific. > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Another point is on application scenarios. As Dimitri pointed out in his early mails, if a general extension to support asymmetric bandwidth is going to be specified its complexity might outweigh its benefits. However, given a focused scenario with single sided control and full bandwidth knowledge at the ingress, the simple extensions given in the ID might be appropriate. The question on this would be whether the proposed extension with this scope is worth the effort. >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> > To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk"=20 > <dwfedyk@nortel.com> > Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:49 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:39 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C17@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQ From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope = of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. = Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face 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margin-left:103.5pt; text-indent:-18.45pt;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Guys,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 let me try to summarize what = we have said so far:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber><![if !supportLists]><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span = style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts </span></font><font color=3Dblue = face=3DWingdings><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>J</span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>);<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.1<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Ethernet services are (likely) = bidirectional with asymmetric bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.2<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>GMPLS now allows to set-up = bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.3<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>If, with the existing protocols, = there is the need to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that = follow the same route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the = first one as strict ERO for the second one. =A0If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use the = ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:42.5pt;text-indent:-24.1pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.4<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> = </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>Likely (I would say very likely) = the NMS that requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in = the two directions. =A0So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the = original RSVP situation.=A0 We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at = the Path processing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'>Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. =A0If someone = think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a = bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion </span></font><font color=3Dblue face=3DWingdings><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>J</span></font><font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'>IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up = the service establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP = rerouting in case of failure.=A0 In fact if the service is made of the two LSP = what could happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled.=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'>Best Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><o:p> </o:p></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:blue'>Diego = =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoListNumber = style=3D'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><o:p> </o:p></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH)<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><o:p> </o:p></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hi Vijay,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>let me answer this. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Attila</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1> </span></font></div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pandian, Vijay<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Don Fedyk<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Don,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hi Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><o:p> </o:p></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pandian, Vijay<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Hi,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?<font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In = other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>|</span></font><strong><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> = </span></font></b></strong><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes?<font color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. </span></font><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?<font = color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?<font color=3Dblue><span = style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail. </span></font><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;color:blue'>Don </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Vijay</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:06:44 +0000 Message-ID: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:05:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:35:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:53 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMA== From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1589" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Hi=20 Vijay,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>let me=20 answer this. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>If you=20 need different protection for each direction then you likely will need=20 differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions = for the=20 two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like = fate=20 sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 only</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2> proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of = the=20 bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Attila</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D443562510-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Pandian,=20 Vijay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Don=20 Fedyk<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Questions = on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2>Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>So=20 the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2>Vijay</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>Hi Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr = align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org = [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Pandian,=20 Vijay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B> = ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007>I have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a = requirement.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 = color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BL= OCKQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a=20 single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.</FONT> <FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting=20 up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. = (Like many=20 new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.) </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></D= IV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 = color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>So=20 to your question besides bandwidth there is also = underlying=20 requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology.=20 Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there = are=20 efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007> On the other hand the issue is = there is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to = discuss the=20 pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a = thread=20 on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT= ></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#000000><FONT color=3D#0000ff>|</FONT><STRONG>=20 </STRONG></FONT> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007>2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery=20 (P&R) related attributes?<SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 = color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV= > <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate=20 RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated=20 with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20 </FONT> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense=20 to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane = in our=20 case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a = CSPF at=20 one end and/or force the paths to=20 align. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same=20 path?<SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data plane=20 trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.=20 </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>5. What=20 is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same=20 as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Yes = it is=20 related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared=20 resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the=20 other is likely to=20 = fail. </FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007>Don=20 </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D232211417-05032007>Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQ= UOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:25:37 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:56 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19AE4@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQACeADKA= From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Hi Julien, The point is that having a single session has its benefits in some cases (as pointed out in previous postings) but to leverage this the applicability is limited (again pointed out previously, e.g., single sided control) compared to a general RSVP-TE case with separate sessions. So we are not saying that the single session is *the* solution, it as an alternative option (maybe "valuable") to the separate session approach. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of MEURIC Julien=20 > RD-CORE-LAN > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:50 PM > To: Igor Bryskin; Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Igor Bryskin;=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Hi Igor. >=20 > Please, find my answers in-line. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 >=20 > Julien, >=20 > Please, see in-line. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >=20 > Hi all. >=20 > To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a=20 > requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think=20 > about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor=20 > said, being able to handle both directions as a single=20 > service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially=20 > in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this=20 > necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... >=20 > Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single=20 > signalling exchange. >=20 > IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single > bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two=20 > unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems,=20 > then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the=20 > situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the=20 > opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the=20 > ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure=20 > is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP=20 > is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal=20 > unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected=20 > before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the=20 > failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the=20 > release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the=20 > recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? >=20 > [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node=20 > should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the=20 > other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single=20 > LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the=20 > requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) >=20 >=20 > Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system=20 > communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither.=20 > However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control=20 > plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. >=20 > IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to > access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all=20 > other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that=20 > it is a significant advantage to be able to control service=20 > from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning=20 > *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the=20 > management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when=20 > there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the=20 > controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear=20 > down or reroute the service. >=20 > [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions.=20 > A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a=20 > soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2=20 > uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only=20 > head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control=20 > the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do=20 > not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic=20 > than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may=20 > ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer=20 > or multi-domain services. >=20 >=20 > Can you give me other examples when such need arises? >=20 > [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you=20 > need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view,=20 > the requirement is managing from a single *point* and=20 > defining this point as a node is only > *a* (valuable) solution. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Igor > =20 >=20 > Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the=20 > RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by=20 > the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both=20 > directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result,=20 > it looks like tools are there to for provisioning,=20 > nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing=20 > in case of recovery. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >=20 > From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS=20 > tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS=20 > that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the=20 > upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is=20 > going to set-up. >=20 > Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to=20 > set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can=20 > force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to=20 > use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I=20 > suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In=20 > this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards >=20 >=20 > Diego >=20 > =20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin >=20 > Adrian and Dimitri, >=20 > When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. =20 > Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to=20 > setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not)=20 > contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all=20 > bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I=20 > siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.).=20 > Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than=20 > computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration=20 > the bandwidth requirements for both directions? > So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node=20 > always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. >=20 > I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our=20 > customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a=20 > communication between management and control plane should=20 > always hapen at one (ingress) node. >=20 > Igor >=20 > PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > 04/03/2007 00:35 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream > flowspec=20 > in > > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message >=20 > That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the=20 > ingress know >=20 > the=20 > bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on > the=20 > Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 > FlowSpec=20 > on the Path. >=20 > -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource > reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would > boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) >=20 > -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where=20 > flowspec=20 > =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore = > the flowspec may be adapted=20 >=20 > If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from=20 > the egress, >=20 > then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to=20 > make the=20 > actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not > worth=20 > trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. >=20 > -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially=20 > the ingress >=20 > is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible=20 > without major > protocol modifications >=20 > -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp=20 > doesn't elevate > the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation > in > a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object > would > prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, > and > provide full flexibility >=20 >=20 > A=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:49:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0eea01c75fd4$5e1cce00$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from [mike shand <mshand@cisco.com>] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:45:36 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com> > From: mike shand <mshand@cisco.com> > Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt > from ISIS WG > Cc: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <pce@ietf.org>, > "les Ginsberg \(ginsberg\)" <ginsberg@cisco.com> > > At 19:48 01/03/2007, LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN wrote: >>Hi Mike, >> >>Thanks for these comments. >> >>Please see inline, >> >> > -----Message d'origine----- >> > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel >> > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 >> > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > Objet : Review comments on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "mike shand" <mshand@cisco.com> >> > To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> >> > Cc: <isis-wg@ietf.org>; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" <jvasseur@cisco.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >> > >> > >> > > Adrian, JP, >> > > >> > > >> > > A few comments below, mostly typos. >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > >> > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and >> > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a >> > consistent term throughout. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Abstract >> > > >> > > >> > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE >> > selection. >> > > >> > > >> > > some of THE information >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > some information >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > 1. Terminology >> > > >> > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't >> > > appear to be referenced in the document. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for >> > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to >> > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is >> > different from a routing domain? >> >>This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) >> >>"A domain is any collection of network elements=20 >>within a common sphere of address management or=20 >>path computation responsibility. Examples of=20 >>domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems=20 >>(ASes), and multiple ASes within a Service=20 >>Provider network. Domains of path computation=20 >>responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." >> >>We are going to clarify. We can use the term=20 >>"Path Computation Domain" to be more specific. > > Yes. I think it is important to make that differentiation. > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > top of page 5 >> > > >> > > >> > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. >> > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. >> > > >> > > >> > > should that be ... MUST be used? >> >>OK, MUST be used >> >> > > >> > > 3.2 flooding scope >> > > >> > > >> > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to, >> > or can be >> > > >> > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs >> > > >> > > would be better >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV >> > > >> > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a >> > sub-TLV, but >> > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is >> > > confusing to say the least. >> >>OK, to be changed to sub-TLV >> >> > > >> > > >> > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the >> > identical to >> > > >> > > is identical to >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV >> > > >> > > >> > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a >> > > >> > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the >> > > >> > > >> > > this reads rather strangely >> > > >> > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 5. Elements of Procedure >> > > >> > > >> > > typo >> > > >> > > >> > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV >> > having the >> > > S >> > > >> > > >> > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST >> > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A >> > PCC MUST be >> > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from >> > an IS-IS LSP. >> > > >> > > >> > > are we assuming here that all this information will always >> > fit within >> > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable >> >>Yes >> >> > > >> > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a >> > single IS-IS CAP >> > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. >> >>Actually this sounds reasonable >> >>2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION +=20 >>PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 flags) =3D 40 bytes. >> >>This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the=20 >>PCE-DOMAINS and PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows=20 >>encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. >> >>Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. >>We are going to add this statement : The PCED=20 >>TLV MUST fit in with a single ISIS CAP TLV. >>By the way this restricts the number of PCE=20 >>domains and neighbor domains to a reasonable value. >> >>Does that make sense? > > Yes. The above statement removes any problems. > > > >> > > >> > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement >> > that they be >> > > carried in the same LSP? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV >> > > >> > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in >> > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new >> > > >> > > >> > > "has been assigned" would be better >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components >> > > >> > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any >> > > requirement on other protocols. >> > > >> > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) >> >>OK >> >>Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed,=20 >>we are going to submit a new revision that accounts for all these >>comments. >> >>Regards, >> >>JL Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:36:16 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E8@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>So the=20 requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Vijay</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D873282200-06032007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> = RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>Hi Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr = align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Pandian,=20 Vijay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>I = have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID = as well=20 as the application behind such a requirement.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 = color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BL= OCKQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with = a single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.</FONT> <FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates = setting up=20 an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.) </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></D= IV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>So to=20 your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement=20 to align with GMPLS single session=20 </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable = with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. = Ethernet=20 data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies = in a=20 single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007> On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT= ></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT=20 size=3D+0><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#000000><FONT color=3D#0000ff>|</FONT><STRONG>=20 </STRONG></FONT> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007>2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?<SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV= > <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D+0><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional=20 Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the = primary=20 bidirectional LSP.=20 </FONT> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in = our case=20 must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at = one end=20 and/or force the paths to=20 align. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement comes=20 from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The = requirement=20 is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace = functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it = same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Yes it = is=20 related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high level=20 of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 fail. </FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007>Don=20 </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D232211417-05032007>Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQ= UOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:54 +0000 Message-ID: <0ea701c75f80$81b872f0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:46:21 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:43:46 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:41:24 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE71BCB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQw From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>Hi Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Pandian,=20 Vijay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>I = have some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>1. Does this=20 ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 = color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BL= OCKQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The = postulation was=20 that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE = session=20 creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of = this is=20 Optical TDM networks.</FONT> <FONT color=3D#0000ff> Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with = a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement=20 and postulates a an=20 implementation.) </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></D= IV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>So to = your question=20 besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to = align with=20 GMPLS single session </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT = color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007>procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE = session. =20 Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two = unidirectional=20 RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate = on this=20 thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind = more as=20 a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is=20 bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session = of a=20 bi-directional LSP.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007> On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on = this=20 (RE: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT= ></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN = class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT><FONT = color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#000000><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>|</FONT><STRONG> = </STRONG></FONT> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP=20 Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV= > <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT><FONT = face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT = color=3D#0000ff>With=20 respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or=20 Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the=20 single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20 </FONT> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Hopefully I addressed = part of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another = RSVP-TE=20 session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional=20 symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the = paths to=20 align. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>4. Is there=20 a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?<SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>That is the way an = Ethernet data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. = There is=20 Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that = both=20 require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be = able to=20 support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and=20 bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2>5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same = as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?<SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOC= KQUOTE> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D964004621-05032007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Yes it is = related. A shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. = Fate shared=20 paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to = fail. </FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D964004621-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2><SPAN class=3D964004621-05032007>Don = </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D232211417-05032007>Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY><= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:42:24 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6" Subject: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:41:47 -0600 Message-ID: <A278CCD6FF152E478C3CF84E4C3BC79D01025287@rchemx01.fnc.net.local> Thread-Topic: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Thread-Index: AcdfZrGgCpz5C1WVSpaNn47XQOd2sg== From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear CCAMPers, We've posted a new draft: LMP Graceful Restart Procedure. Your comments are very welcome.=20 Thanks, Snigdho Abstract For the LMP graceful restart functionality, under some circumstance the = restart node may get wrong LMP states from its neighbor. So the = clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is described in this = document. A control-channel failure following some form of network re- = configuration typically could lead to the release of LSP resources. = Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of the control- = channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only way to = recover LMP from this state is by some operator intervention. =20 Because we have missed the final ID submission cut-off date, this draft = can be found under the missing drafts link at: <http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 6.5.7234.20"> <TITLE>New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <!-- Converted from text/rtf format --> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Dear CCAMPers,</FONT> <BR><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">We’ve posted a new draft: LMP Graceful = Restart Procedure.</FONT> <BR><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Your comments are very welcome. </FONT> </P> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Snigdho</FONT> </P> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Courier">Abstract</FONT> </P> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Courier">For the LMP graceful restart functionality, = under some circumstance the restart node may get wrong LMP states from = its neighbor. So the clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is = described in this document. A control-channel failure following some = form of network re- configuration typically could lead to the release of = LSP resources. Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of = the control- channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only = way to recover LMP from this state is by some operator = intervention.</FONT></P> <P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT> <BR><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Because we have missed the final ID submission = cut-off date, this draft can be found under the missing drafts link = at:</FONT> </P> <P><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial"><<A = HREF=3D"http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm">http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.= htm</A>></FONT></U> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:20:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:19:28 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFE7@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Thread-Index: AcdVMQhQaQPVOm4ASwG6m01z+u5DGAKMk3IA From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Per-domain path computation method for=20 establishing Inter-domain Traffic=20 Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Author(s) : J. Vasseur, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-2-20 =09 This document specifies a per-domain path computation technique for establishing inter-domain Traffic Engineering (TE) Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs). In this document a domain refers to a collection of network elements within a common sphere of address management or path computational responsibility such as IGP areas and Autonomous Systems. Per-domain computation applies where the full path of an inter-domain TE LSP cannot be or is not determined at the ingress node of the TE LSP, and is not signaled across domain boundaries. This is most likely to arise owing to TE visibility limitations. The signaling message indicates the destination and nodes up to the next domain boundary. It may also indicate further domain boundaries or domain identifiers. The path through each domain, possibly including the choice of exit point from the domain, must be determined within the domain. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-pat h-comp-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:13:11 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:12:35 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFD0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcQ2A5HC1vhlvXT9qiSetEzGkauwDHs39w From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-t e-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:09:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:40 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFC1@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcXHewSpG5V5DISvameliNvsPlzgDBNCxg From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.tx t To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:07:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8" Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E0@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMA== From: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R) related attributes? 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well? 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>I have = some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>1. = Does this ID=20 address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>2. How = about other=20 attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) = related=20 attributes?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them=20 independently as well?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>4. Is = there a need=20 for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D232211417-05032007>5. = What is "fate=20 sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D232211417-05032007>Vijay</SPAN></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY><= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:45:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65FC@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdbayDcbBgWFH/GQxaKwCwVQ0JJpwDxAncA From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc:=20 Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their=20 desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web=20 site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard,=20 dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating=20 large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling=20 messages=20 for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on=20 October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative=20 scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these=20 scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further=20 definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:51:46 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:49:56 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65AB@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQ From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: "Igor Bryskin" <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Hi Igor. Please, find my answers in-line. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 Julien, Please, see in-line. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems, then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that it is a significant advantage to be able to control service from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear down or reroute the service. [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions. A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2 uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer or multi-domain services. Can you give me other examples when such need arises? [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view, the requirement is managing from a single *point* and defining this point as a node is only *a* (valuable) solution. Thanks, Igor =20 Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:21:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE15EC9@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZMgb6Cari5bkRdmTBI6xZ1tGZgAx/4Bg From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All =20 Igor has captured my understanding as well that the situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed to map the capabilities from a management plane.=20 =20 In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS control of optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The ingress node knows the bandwidth for both directions.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:56 AM To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Adrian and Dimitri, =09 When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. =09 I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. =09 Igor =09 PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. =09 Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:=20 "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =09 To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message =09 That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know=20 the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. =09 -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) =09 -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 =09 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,=20 then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. =09 -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress=20 is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications =09 -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility =09 =09 A=20 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolba= r /features/mail/> with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolba= r /features/mail/>=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D139114713-05032007>Hi All</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D139114713-05032007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Igor has captured my understanding as well that = the=20 situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed = to map=20 the capabilities from a management plane. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS = control of=20 optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The = ingress=20 node knows the bandwidth for both directions. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Don </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D139114713-05032007><FONT = face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 04, 2007 = 8:56=20 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian=20 Farrel<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor=20 Bryskin<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV>Adrian and Dimitri,<BR><BR>When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it = is=20 setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a = tunnel=20 ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does = not)=20 contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth = parameters,=20 because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular=20 reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure = the fate=20 sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in=20 consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?<BR>So, = yes, I'd=20 say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about = bandiwidth=20 in both directions.<BR><BR>I'd say even more. We have a strict = requirement=20 from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a = communication=20 between management and control plane should always hapen at one = (ingress)=20 node.<BR><BR>Igor<BR><BR>PS It would be interesting to hear from = providers on=20 this = topic.<BR><BR><B><I>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</I></B>=20 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">"Adrian=20 Farrel" <ADRIAN@OLDDOG.CO.UK><BR>04/03/2007 00:35<BR>Please respond = to=20 "Adrian Farrel"<BR><BR>To: "Igor Bryskin" <I_BRYSKIN@YAHOO.COM>, = Dimitri=20 <BR>PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<BR>cc: <CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG>, = "Don=20 Fedyk" <DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM><BR>Subject: Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<BR><BR><BR>> 3. if a) is = selected=20 there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec <BR>in<BR>> = the Path=20 msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message<BR><BR>That *does* = raise an=20 interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know <BR>the = <BR>bandwidth to=20 request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the = <BR>Resv as the=20 reservation has already been made commensurate with the <BR>FlowSpec = <BR>on=20 the Path.<BR><BR>-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side = to never=20 adapt resource<BR>reservation to the traffic parameters of the = egress (in=20 fact, it would<BR>boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry=20 forever)<BR><BR>-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least = condition=20 where flowspec <BR>=3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may = "increase"=20 and therefore <BR>the flowspec may be adapted <BR><BR>If the ingress = does=20 *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, <BR>then we = need=20 another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the <BR>actual = reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 <BR>trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP = format.<BR><BR>-> this=20 is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress = <BR>is=20 completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without=20 major<BR>protocol modifications<BR><BR>-> my partial conclusion, = is that=20 a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate<BR>the need for the general = case, and=20 only provides apparent facilitation in<BR>a corner case, whereas a = technique=20 making use of association object would<BR>prevent all this protocol=20 massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and<BR>provide full=20 flexibility<BR><BR><BR>A=20 = <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DWFEDYK@NORTEL.COM></CCAMP@OPS.IETF.ORG></I_BRYSKIN= @YAHOO.COM></ADRIAN@OLDDOG.CO.UK></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> <HR SIZE=3D1> It's here! Your new message!<BR>Get <A=20 = href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com= /toolbar/features/mail/">new=20 email alerts</A> with the free <A=20 = href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com= /toolbar/features/mail/">Yahoo!=20 Toolbar.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:07:56 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B6461@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHA= From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:13:22 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D890B@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQg From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: domenica 4 marzo 2007 14.56 To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http:/tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar= / features/mail/> with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = name=3D"place"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>From my experience I can quote = everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by = the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the = King.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So I think that in the real world = the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS = Tunnel is going to set-up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Moreover if I’ll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical = bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? = Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or = I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this = case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the = NMS?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><br> Diego<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Igor Bryskin<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> domenica 4 marzo = 2007 14.56<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; = Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'>Adrian and Dimitri,<br> <br> When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The = request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it = definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as = I siad, for a particular reason (application, <st1:place = w:st=3D"on">SLA</st1:place>, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than = computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth = requirements for both directions?<br> So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always = knows about bandiwidth in both directions.<br> <br> I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management = and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.<br> <br> Igor<br> <br> PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.<br> <br> <b><i><span = style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcate= l-lucent.be</span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'>"Adrian Farrel" <br> <adrian@olddog.co.uk>04/03/2007 00:35<br> Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"<br> <br> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, Dimitri <br> PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <br> <dwfedyk@nortel.com>Subject: Re: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br> <br> <br> > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream = flowspec <br> in<br> > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message<br> <br> That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know = <br> the <br> bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on = the <br> Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the <br> FlowSpec <br> on the Path.<br> <br> -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt = resource<br> reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it = would<br> boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)<br> <br> -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where = flowspec <br> =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" = and therefore <br> the flowspec may be adapted <br> <br> If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, = <br> then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the = <br> actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not = worth <br> trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.<br> <br> -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the = ingress <br> is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without = major<br> protocol modifications<br> <br> -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't = elevate<br> the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation = in<br> a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object = would<br> prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, = and<br> provide full flexibility<br> <br> <br> A <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </dwfedyk@nortel.com></ccamp@ops.ietf.org></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></adrian@= olddog.co.uk> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'>It's here! Your new message!<br> Get <a href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http:/tools.search.yahoo.com/= toolbar/features/mail/">new email alerts</a> with the free <a href=3D"%0d%0ahttp:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D49938/*http:/tools.search.yahoo= .com/toolbar/features/mail/">Yahoo! Toolbar.</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:08:41 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:05 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91ACFB7F@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcddKXr+hyXSYOGqRZ6AohT1OJWGHwBesfpA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi all, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:11 AM > To: Don Fedyk; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Cutting to the chase (I hope): >=20 > >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > > is that specific to Ethernet ? >=20 > 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional service? >=20 > 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs? > (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) >=20 It would be good to have operators reflect on these. My two cents are that asymmetrical bidirectional services are apparently there. In regards to LSPs carrying highly aggregated traffic in backbones asymmetry might be of less importance, however LSPs getting further out to the edges of the network may have really asymmetrical loads. > > [dp] the issue is threefold > > > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not=20 > call for an=20 > > upstream tspec >=20 > 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate=20 > the bandwidth of the forward flow. > 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec > 2.b. a FlowSpec >=20 I agree with Don and Igor on this. Having a TSpec there and ending up with "single-sided" LSP control would be not a problem in practice. > > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we=20 > > have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact=20 > > intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full=20 > > flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and=20 > > downstream flow) >=20 > 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: > 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two=20 > 'associated' signaling exchanges >=20 > Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by=20 > talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to=20 > revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane=20 > presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Agree. The target of the ID was to have a discussion on the topic and see if there is interest to add a new *option* (3.a) for asymmetric bidirectional LSP establishment.=20 >=20 > Adrian=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:11:03 +0000 Message-ID: <0b5001c75e88$1b65ad40$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com> Subject: Agenda slots for CCAMP in Prague Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:32:26 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In San Diego we ran hopelessly out of time and the room was almost unanimous in support of the idea of having a two shot CCAMP meeting in Prague. So that is what we have booked. CCAMP will meet at 9am on Monday morning for 2.5 hours, and at 1pm on Tuesday afternoon for 2 hours. We propose to split the work between working group drafts and milestones, and new material, dedicating one session to each although there may need to be some jiggling to avoid conflicts with other working groups. Please send your requests for agenda slots to Deborah and me as soon as you like (or sooner!). Thanks, Deborah and Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:57:53 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=x0WCWyUT3SdJuabkPnOPOQmwhFSwf0RFMtCR83UssTx1NlOJrBiXeXOG6mJwJjzv2uChHUXXD3dNFu9PE0ce4Mu8Dt9NetB67nc/v1VHSZyaSzKtBDTWnKTsGWKuy88StOjfT0OAJydVRWmlcAKiiX9umf3eIzVhJ2RwJjMCueE=; Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel" 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri,<br><br>When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?<br>So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions.<br><br>I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.<br><br>Igor<br><br>PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk><br>04/03/2007 00:35<br>Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"<br> <br> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, Dimitri <br>PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com><br> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>> 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec <br>in<br>> the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message<br><br>That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know <br>the <br>bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the <br>Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the <br>FlowSpec <br>on the Path.<br><br>-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource<br>reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would<br>boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)<br><br>-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec <br>=< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore <br>the flowspec may be adapted <br><br>If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, <br>then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the <br>actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth <br>trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.<br><br>-> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress <br>is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major<br>protocol modifications<br><br>-> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate<br>the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in<br>a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would<br>prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and<br>provide full flexibility<br><br><br>A <br><br><br><br><br></dwfedyk@nortel.com></ccamp@ops.ietf.org></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></adrian@olddog.co.uk></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>It's here! Your new message!<br>Get <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/"> new email alerts</a> with the free <a href=" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49938/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/">Yahoo! Toolbar.</a> --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 00:26:55 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF378A29E7.C24F06CD-ONC1257293.00825DD3-C1257294.00025B31@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:25:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:44:12 +0000 Message-ID: <0a6301c75ded$919b12c0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:35:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. A Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:44:39 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=f3JxSsQ3xZFDiYAKEgVQOELPknGVNe10SB9FcoDhzUQwPjNWBhXgKsazUhVAa6nk9YtaXv4fEccUWJLWP9YGa/sAxT1YGfZXjiyV29QsV8hi+RXpncL31fhVZ9oH7W5o4LepBE12pAwzAuvE2qnSQCK+6CWYwjsRM4ap9pqIlYE=; Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:43:54 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <924312.61415.qm@web36811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor "If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs." that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP, IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs. but remember that the major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate timeslot/lambda selection). IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message. Igor the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw. -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 21:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) ÔáÖ ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor<br><br>"If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP <br>will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs."<br><br>that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case <br>of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location <br>and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may <br>have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP, <br><br>IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs.<br><br>but remember that the <br>major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate <br>timeslot/lambda selection).<br><br>IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message.<br><br>Igor<br>the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is <br>assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for <br>making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the <br>control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in <br>case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw.<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>03/03/2007 21:03<br> <br> To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, <br>Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com><br> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Dimitri,<br><br>Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails <br>and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 <br>unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will <br>loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a <br>bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two <br>unidirectional LSPs.<br>If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have <br>extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.<br><br>Igor<br><br>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:<br>igor<br><br><br>1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of <br>flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP <br>was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping <br>establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with <br>different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths <br>b) improve setup and recovery time <br><br>now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is <br><br>de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement <br>for" that kind of service<br><br><br>2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying <br><br>data paths <br><br>a) a signaled association on each intermediate node <br><br>b) a signaled association at the end-points<br><br>c) no signaled association<br><br><br>3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in <br><br>the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message<br><br>the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft <br>proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source <br>(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the <br>"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter <br>knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted <br><br>upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec <br>(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and <br>inexpensive method you are looking at)<br><br>note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real <br>interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the <br>lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the <br>Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially <br>going into the correct direction)<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <br>03/03/2007 14:26<br><br>To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk <br>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br>cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical <br>bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this. <br><br>If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two <br>reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need <br>bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:<br>a) the setup is faster;<br>b) the CP state is smaller<br>c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm <br>distribution,,,,)<br>d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention <br>problem<br>e) ÔáÖ<br><br>ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support <br>bi-directional LSPs.<br>The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and <br>relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ..<br><br><br>Igor <br>Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>Cutting to the chase (I hope):<br><br>>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?<br>> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.<br>><br>><br>> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?<br>> is that specific to Ethernet ?<br><br>1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional <br>service?<br><br>1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?<br>(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)<br><br>> [dp] the issue is threefold<br>><br>> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not<br>> call for an upstream tspec<br><br>2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth <br>of <br>the forward flow.<br>2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec<br>2.b. a FlowSpec<br><br>> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.<br>> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler<br>><br>> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs<br>> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating<br>> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that<br>> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)<br>> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial<br>> path for the upstream and downstream flow)<br><br>3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:<br>3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions<br>3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges<br><br>Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about <br>"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the <br>signaling <br>exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. <br>or <br>3.b.<br><br>Adrian <br><br><br><br><br>TV dinner still cooling?<br>Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.<br><br><br> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your <br>question on Yahoo! Answers.<br><br></dwfedyk@nortel.com></adrian@olddog.co.uk></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1> Don't get soaked. Take a<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news"> quick peak at the forecast </a><br> with the<a href=" http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news">Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.</a> --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:54:01 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF11107F8D.23B2CA3B-ONC1257293.0075BB1B-C1257293.007824AD@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:52:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoiSWYgeW91IG5lZWQgdG8gcmUtcm91dGUgYm90aCBMU1BzLCB0aGFuIHJlY292ZXJ5 IG9mIGEgYmktZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQIA0Kd2lsbCBiZSB0d2ljZSBmYXN0ZXIgdGhhbiByZWNv dmVyeSBvZiB0d28gdW5pZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQcy4iDQoNCnRoYXQgaXMgY2xlYXJseSBub3Qg dGhlIGNhc2UuIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHNlcXVlbnRpYWwgb3BlcmF0aW9uKHMpIGluIGNhc2UgDQpv ZiB1bmlkaXJlY3Rpb25hbCBMU1BzLCByZWNvdmVyeSB0aW1lIGRpZmYgZGVwZW5kcyBvbiB0aGUg 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Yi4NCg0KQWRyaWFuIA0KDQoNCg0KDQpUViBkaW5uZXIgc3RpbGwgY29vbGluZz8NCkNoZWNrIG91 dCAiVG9uaWdodCdzIFBpY2tzIiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVFYuDQoNCg0KIE5lZWQgYSBxdWljayBhbnN3 ZXI/IEdldCBvbmUgaW4gbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHBlb3BsZSB3aG8ga25vdy4gQXNrIHlvdXIgDQpx dWVzdGlvbiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgQW5zd2Vycy4NCg0K Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:05:28 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=akjxqABzWM9XDKhixF833sKXm5V4Zq4rnNVJr6HZK1m5qZO62DrOUx+aEgM0m1BjaGTXOoW9vIR/ChyzbVv+/6jOKF7sIBuKWMTvS30WawthnNI3xKKJqkIOMJ0ZEGSLRBuzis1aaR1IDIEt92+2WCalAxDUDkvnbS4l5vodPD0=; Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:03:15 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-478059516-1172952195=:32586" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <505574.32586.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) тАж ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,<br><br>Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs.<br>If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.<br><br>Igor<br><br><b><i>Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> igor<br><br><br>1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of <br>flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP <br>was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping <br>establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with <br>different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths <br>b) improve setup and recovery time <br><br>now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is <br>de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement <br>for" that kind of service<br><br><br>2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying <br>data paths <br><br>a) a signaled association on each intermediate node <br><br>b) a signaled association at the end-points<br><br>c) no signaled association<br><br><br>3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in <br>the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message<br><br>the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft <br>proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source <br>(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the <br>"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter <br>knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted <br>upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec <br>(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and <br>inexpensive method you are looking at)<br><br>note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real <br>interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the <br>lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the <br>Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially <br>going into the correct direction)<br><br>-d.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com><br>03/03/2007 14:26<br> <br> To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Don Fedyk <br><dwfedyk@nortel.com>, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL<br> cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org<br> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical <br>bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this. <br> <br>If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two <br>reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need <br>bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:<br>a) the setup is faster;<br>b) the CP state is smaller<br>c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm <br>distribution,,,,)<br>d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention <br>problem<br>e) тАж<br> <br>ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support <br>bi-directional LSPs.<br>The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and <br>relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж..<br> <br> <br>Igor <br>Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:<br>Cutting to the chase (I hope):<br><br>>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?<br>> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.<br>><br>><br>> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?<br>> is that specific to Ethernet ?<br><br>1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional <br>service?<br><br>1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?<br>(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)<br><br>> [dp] the issue is threefold<br>><br>> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not<br>> call for an upstream tspec<br><br>2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth <br>of <br>the forward flow.<br>2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec<br>2.b. a FlowSpec<br><br>> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.<br>> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler<br>><br>> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs<br>> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating<br>> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that<br>> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)<br>> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial<br>> path for the upstream and downstream flow)<br><br>3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:<br>3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions<br>3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges<br><br>Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about <br>"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the <br>signaling <br>exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. <br>or <br>3.b.<br><br>Adrian <br><br><br><br><br> TV dinner still cooling?<br>Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.<br><br></adrian@olddog.co.uk></dwfedyk@nortel.com></adrian@olddog.co.uk></i_bryskin@yahoo.com></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on <a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx">Yahoo! Answers</a>. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:56:14 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF939A73A4.D6CF742C-ONC1257293.0059C4D6-C1257293.005CC8C6@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:53:25 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoNCjEuIHRyZWF0aW5nIHRoZSBMU1BzIGluZGVwZW5kZW50bHkgaXMgYW4gYWRkZWQg dmFsdWUgKGluIHRlcm1zIG9mIA0KZmxleGliaWxpdHkpLCB0aGUgc29sZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIGRl cGFydGluZyBpbiBjYXNlIG9mIGJpLWRpcmVjdGlvbmFsIExTUCANCndhcyAobG9vayBhdCB0aGUg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdCBpbiAyMDAwKSBkdWUgdG8gYSkga2VlcGluZyANCmVzdGFi bGlzaG1lbnQgb2YgZGF0YSBwYXRoIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgbGVkIHRvIGxhbWJk 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a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VaG/p8zM9cInaMlLe9HdQRvCbjdmfh0Z/cD059Qur25H1hyG/ttMHM5WJqT6GpkGVnnMn4732wgYD6w5Dr5AZpNcJ/OpUR6/noWuYCyti8z52+FDpveQkZqLZSfpQXqvG2K6kOOjExO4SpJrtPCz+s20b/aDoMfVMxY0o8ApvlU= ; Message-ID: <20070303132653.1859.qmail@web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Don Fedyk <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-642856478-1172928413=:1739" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) Thats why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c) .. Igor Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br> <br> Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for<span style=""> </span>asymmetrical bidirectional services I tend to agree with Don on this. </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">a)<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->the setup is faster;</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">b)<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->the CP state is smaller</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">c)<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,)</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">d)<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">e)<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Thats why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs.</div> <div class="MsoNormal">The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c) ..</div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal">Igor </div> <b><i>Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Cutting to the chase (I hope):<br><br>>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?<br>> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.<br>><br>><br>> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?<br>> is that specific to Ethernet ?<br><br>1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional <br>service?<br><br>1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?<br>(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)<br><br>> [dp] the issue is threefold<br>><br>> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not<br>> call for an upstream tspec<br><br>2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of <br>the forward flow.<br>2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec<br>2.b. a FlowSpec<br><br>> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.<br>> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler<br>><br>> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs<br>> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating<br>> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that<br>> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)<br>> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial<br>> path for the upstream and downstream flow)<br><br>3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:<br>3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions<br>3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges<br><br>Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about <br>"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling <br>exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or <br>3.b.<br><br>Adrian <br><br><br><br></blockquote><br><p>  <hr size=1>TV dinner still cooling?<br><a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49979/*http://tv.yahoo.com/">Check out "Tonight's Picks"</a> on Yahoo! TV. --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: <094901c75d28$78d94b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:10:57 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:57:51 +0000 To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF7C4F4705.B337B506-ONC1257292.00814A86-C1257292.00837C11@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:56:09 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi don see inline >"Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > >Hi Dimitri > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >> >> let's go back to basic >> >> per RFC 3471 >> >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >> >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >> >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >> >> [...] >> >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >> >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >> >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >> >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today. > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component. > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS. [dp] well see below >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW. [dp] step 1: unidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx tspec A->B (Path), flowspec B->A (Resv) [dp] step 2: sym bidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx Rx <---- Tx but tspec A->B (Path) == flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) == tspec B->A (Path) in brief, tspec A->B (Path) acts as is floswpec A->B (Resv) was sent from A to B (for upstream data path) [dp] step 3: asymmetric bidir LSP A-B: w/ tspec A->B (Path) =/= flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) =/= tspec B->A (Path) therefore, you need tspec A->B & flowspec A->B (in Path) and flowspec B->A & tspec B->A (in Resv) >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >> > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end. > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ? [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? is that specific to Ethernet ? or to PBB-TE probably ;-) >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions? > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. [dp] the issue is threefold a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not call for an upstream tspec b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and downstream flow) thanks, - d. Regards, Don >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. > >Regards, Don <snip> > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:24:42 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:21:35 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD9915B@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: Acdc7R5m4DpcofGnQm21JY1TtdtKjwAIpeZQ From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Dimitri See inline [DF] >hi don > >"Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > >Hi Dimitri=20 > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >>=20 >> let's go back to basic >>=20 >> per RFC 3471 >>=20 >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >>=20 >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >>=20 >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> [...] >>=20 >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >>=20 >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >>=20 >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today.=20 > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component.=20 > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS.=20 > >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW.=20 >=20 >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >>=20 > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end.=20 > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ?=20 [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. =20 > >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions?=20 > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. =20 Regards, Don=20 >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 > >Regards, Don <snip> > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:07:07 +0000 To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFB05E32D5.EF96071E-ONC1257292.005C8B9D-C1257292.005DF804@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:06:23 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi don "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> 02/03/2007 17:44 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Dimitri Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > let's go back to basic > > per RFC 3471 > > "4. Bidirectional LSPs > > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." > > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) > > [...] > > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." > > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream > & downstream) > > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow > respectful > of the RSVP operation > > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today. -> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. -> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both components) The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. -> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other "name" we will find for it) > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association > oject > The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. -> btw, where this requirement come from ? The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? -> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) thanks, -d. While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. Regards, Don <snip> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:47:29 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD987C2@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdcoBcJJPehlr2/TIyJlJB9RsUsXAANtJiw From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com> To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Hi Dimitri=20 Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >=20 > let's go back to basic >=20 > per RFC 3471 >=20 > "4. Bidirectional LSPs >=20 > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." >=20 > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the=20 > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) >=20 > [...] >=20 > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to=20 > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." >=20 > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream=20 > & downstream) >=20 > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow=20 > respectful > of the RSVP operation >=20 > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the=20 > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today.=20 This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. >=20 > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association=20 > oject >=20 The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? =20 While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 Regards, Don=20 <snip> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:42:24 +0000 To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OF3C0F3CD8.CF74D919-ONC1257292.0007FE02-C1257292.002A28BD@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:40:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" let's go back to basic per RFC 3471 "4. Bidirectional LSPs This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each direction." what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) [...] "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to initiator, they are established using a single set of signaling messages." in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream & downstream) but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow respectful of the RSVP operation the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association oject ps: the document includes in many places "marketing-like" statements completely - examples " The limitation of symmetrical resource requirements may pose difficulties for operators to efficiently support the services foreseen for next generation networks." pls give us a break with all the hype and hubub about "services foreseen for next generation networks" "Means must be provided by higher layer entities, e.g., the network management system (NMS), to correlate the LSPs not just from RSVP-TE but also from an OAM point of view. " which OAM ??? never heard someone complaining when using MPLS-BFD where is the proof point ? "Additionally, translation functionality may be required to provide operators with a service oriented bidirectional abstraction hiding the complex control plane operation." could you speak with an IETF language please, this sentence just mean nothing thanks, -d. Internet-Drafts@ietf.org 27/02/2007 21:50 Please respond to internet-drafts To: i-d-announce@ietf.org cc: Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : GMPLS RSVP-TE extension in support of bidirectional LSPs with Author(s) : A. Takacs, et al. Filename : draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2007-2-27 GMPLS provides general connection control functionality supporting different network technologies. This memo specifies a further generalization to support bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric requirements. The extension improves the flexibility of bidirectional LSP establishment and at the same time simplifies the control and management of asymmetric services. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ftp://anonymous@ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:50:51 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Message-Id: <E1HMv2A-0007OV-Bf@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1151329.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1151329.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:43:48 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1" Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:34 -0500 Message-ID: <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B0703833516@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdcWyVNrEVd1Fz2RHeB0X1gu8LT2Q== From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Dimitri Papadimitriou" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3089; t=1172792498; x=1173656498; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20<zali@cisco.com> |Subject:=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown- 01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Adrian=20Farrel=22=20<adrian@olddog.co.uk>,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=2 0=20=20=22Brungard,=20Deborah=20A,=20ALABS=22=20<dbrungard@att.com>,=0A=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=22Dimitri=20Papadimitriou=22=20<Dimitri.Papadimitrio u@alcatel.be>; bh=oLzh5z9apm4YMVp1LmXI9GOCSEGBpmsdqJAvMye6e+Q=; b=fqz5jKd9KGchEyivw4Qn8Ba/0TEpuTpbXwB/KK+tA52ZHkcKGuu/yw0wFkMc9u+zGYYpoIvY QMGTbhs+Di9z8Rf79jbyjmBmRIWBPKWEjGEOybgFMQJHNH0dmm5MJ7QV; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- =20 =20 As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share.=20 =20 The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 =20 The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 =20 Thanks =20 Regards... Zafar =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi = Adrian,=20 Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As we = mentioned at=20 the last IETF meeting, <A=20 href=3D"http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm">= http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm</A>,=20 we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment = from=20 Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, = please=20 share. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The = only remaining=20 comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or = standard=20 track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some = specific=20 behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on=20 this. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The ID = has been=20 stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, = we would=20 like to request last call. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D766361923-01032007><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Regards... Zafar=20 </FONT> </SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:51:09 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Message-Id: <E1HMsDy-0002d4-Ln@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:51:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: <D109C8C97C15294495117745780657AE071F09E9@ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Thread-Index: AcdQ9GI+c99qgvstR7+om7JHEHjxDQLQVytw From: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com> To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <mshand@cisco.com>, <pce@ietf.org> Hi Mike, Thanks for these comments. Please see inline, > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Objet : Review comments on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mike shand" <mshand@cisco.com> > To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> > Cc: <isis-wg@ietf.org>; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" <jvasseur@cisco.com> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >=20 >=20 > > Adrian, JP, > > > > > > A few comments below, mostly typos. > > > > Mike > > > > > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and=20 > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a=20 > consistent term throughout. OK > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE=20 > selection. > > > > > > some of THE information > > > > or > > > > some information OK > > > > 1. Terminology > > > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't=20 > > appear to be referenced in the document. OK > > > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for=20 > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to=20 > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is=20 > different from a routing domain? This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) "A domain is any collection of network elements within a common sphere = of address management or path computation responsibility. Examples of = domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems (ASes), and multiple ASes = within a Service Provider network. Domains of path computation = responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." We are going to clarify. We can use the term "Path Computation Domain" = to be more specific. > > > > > > top of page 5 > > > > > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. > > > > > > should that be ... MUST be used? OK, MUST be used > > > > 3.2 flooding scope > > > > > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to,=20 > or can be > > > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs > > > > would be better > > > > > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV > > > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a=20 > sub-TLV, but=20 > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is=20 > > confusing to say the least. OK, to be changed to sub-TLV > > > > > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the=20 > identical to > > > > is identical to OK > > > > > > > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV > > > > > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a > > > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences > > > > or > > > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a > > > > or > > > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a OK > > > > > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the > > > > > > this reads rather strangely > > > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... OK > > > > > > > > > > 5. Elements of Procedure > > > > > > typo > > > > > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV=20 > having the=20 > > S > > > > > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A=20 > PCC MUST be > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from=20 > an IS-IS LSP. > > > > > > are we assuming here that all this information will always=20 > fit within=20 > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable Yes > > > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a=20 > single IS-IS CAP=20 > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. Actually this sounds reasonable 2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION + PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 = flags) =3D 40 bytes. This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the PCE-DOMAINS and = PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. We are going to add this statement : The PCED TLV MUST fit in with a = single ISIS CAP TLV.=20 By the way this restricts the number of PCE domains and neighbor domains = to a reasonable value. Does that make sense? > > > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement=20 > that they be=20 > > carried in the same LSP? > > > > > > > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV > > > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new > > > > > > "has been assigned" would be better OK > > > > > > > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components > > > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any > > requirement on other protocols. > > > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) OK Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed, we are going to submit a = new revision that accounts for all these comments. Regards, JL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:01:34 +0000 Message-ID: <00b301c75c09$d9259b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Cc: "Arthi Ayyangar" <arthi@nuovasystems.com>, "'Kireeti Kompella'" <kireeti@juniper.net>, "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" <jvasseur@cisco.com> Subject: New revision of draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:58:27 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I appear to have taken over editing this I-D to prepare it for WG last call. Here are my responses to my own review comments (yes, really!) that have been incorporated into the new revision just submitted. Adrian > === > > idnits generates the following comments > * There are 96 instances of too long lines in the document, the longest > one being 1 character in excess of 72. Indentation fixed. > Checking nits according to http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt: > - It seems as if not all pages are separated by form feeds - found 0 form > feeds but 22 pages Form feeds inserted. > === > > The boilerplate will need to be updated for the new IETF Trust language. Updated. > === > Abstract. > > First paragraph is a good introduction. > Second paragraph is fine and OK. > But the Abstract also needs to say what the document is about! > I suggest the addition of a new 2nd paragraph as follows... > > This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling > protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs from S-LSPs, and describes > how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing > protocols. Test added. > === > > Acronyms > > Acronyms need to be expanded on their first use in the body of the > document regardless of whether they appear in the document title or in the > Abstract. > I found... > LSP > GMPLS > P2MP > RRO Changes made. > === > > Introduction > > The Introduction section is pretty lumpy. It seems to spend most of its > time talking about hierarchical LSPs, and only defines stitching in the > final paragraph. > > I suggest some re-ordering and a little editing as follows: > > New Section 1 > > A stitched Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic > Engineering (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) is built from a set of > different LSP segments (S-LSPs) that are connected together in the > data plane in such a way that a single end-to-end LSP is realized in > the data plane. In this document, we define the concept of LSP > stitching and detail the control plane mechanisms and procedures > (routing and signaling) to accomplish this. Where applicable, > similarities and differences between LSP hierarchy [2] and LSP > stitching are highlighted. Signaling extensions required for LSP > stitching are also described here. > > It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic > from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it > is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions > whatsoever, and such that the operation is completely transparent to > other nodes. This results in LSP stitching in the data plane, but > requires management intervention at the node where the stitching is > performed. With the mechanism described in this document, the node > performing the stitching does not require configuration of the pair > of S-LSPs to be stitched together. Also, LSP stitching as defined > here results in an end-to-end LSP both in the control and data > planes. Done. > Move the following paragraphs (unchanged) from Section 1 to the top of > Section 2. > > LSP hierarchy ([2]) provides signaling and routing procedures so > that: > > a. A Hierarchical LSP (H-LSP) can be created. Such an LSP created > in one layer can appear as a data link to LSPs in higher layers. > As such, one or more LSPs in a higher layer can traverse this > H-LSP as a single hop; we call this "nesting". > > b. An H-LSP may be managed and advertised (although this is not a > requirement) as a Traffic Engineering (TE) link. Advertising an > H-LSP as a TE link allows other nodes in the TE domain in which > it is advertised to use this H-LSP in path computation. If the > H-LSP TE link is advertised in the same instance of control plane > (TE domain) in which the H-LSP was provisioned, it is then > defined as a forwarding adjacency LSP (FA-LSP) and GMPLS nodes > can form a forwarding adjacency (FA) over this FA-LSP. There is > usually no routing adjacency between end points of an FA. An > H-LSP may also be advertised as a TE link in a different TE > domain. In this case, the end points of the H-LSP are required > have a routing adjacency between them. > > c. RSVP signaling for LSP setup can occur between nodes that do not > have a routing adjacency. Done, resulting in a shorter Section 1, and a longer Section 2. > === > > Section 3.2 > > It might be useful to include a reference to RFC4726 to give some context > for inter-domain uses of stitching. Added in 2nd paragraph. > === > > Security considerations > > I don't think we will get away with what is currently written :-( > The killer is: > Mechanisms described in [6] should be > re-examined and may need to be altered to define new security > associations based on receiver's IP address instead of the sending > and receiving interfaces. > > I think that if you say that the re-examination is needed, you must do it. > You need to satisfy yourself as to whether any changes (beyond those > expressed in RFC4206) are needed. > > My view is that you should be able to echo the text of RFC4206 without > needing anything further. This is because the relationship between the > end-points of the S-LSP is the same as that between the end points of the > H-LSP in RFC4206. The precedent for remote signaling adjacencies has > already been established, and you are not defining anything new. Security section re-written as follows: From a security point of view, the changes introduced in this document model the changes introduced by [2]. That is, the control interface over which RSVP messages are sent or received need not be the same as the data interface which the message identifies for switching traffic. But the capability for this function was introduced in [4] to support the concept of out-of-fiber control channels, so there is nothing new in this concept for signaling or security. The application of this facility means that the "sending interface" or "receiving interface" may change as routing changes. So, these interfaces cannot be used to establish security association between neighbors, and security associations MUST be bound to the communicating neighbors themselves. [6] provides a solution to this issue: in Section 2.1, under "Key Identifier", an IP address is a valid identifier for the sending (and by analogy, receiving) interface. Since RSVP messages for a given LSP are sent to an IP address that identifies the next/previous hop for the LSP, one can replace all occurrences of 'sending [receiving] interface' with 'receiver's [sender's] IP address' (respectively). For example, in Section 4, third paragraph, instead of: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured sending interface (or LIH). ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the interface through which the message is sent." it should read: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured receiver's IP address. ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the IP address to which the message is sent." Thus the mechanisms of [6] can be used unchanged to establish security associations between control plane neighbors. This document allows the IP destination address of Path and PathTear messages to be the IP address of a nexthop node (receiver's address) instead of the RSVP session destination address. This means that the use of the IPsec Authentication Header (AH) (ruled out in [6] because RSVP messages were encapsulated in IP packets addressed to the ultimate destination of the Path or PathTear messages) is now perfectly applicable, and standard IPsec procedures can be used to secure the message exchanges. An analysis of GMPLS security issues can be found in [16]. > === > > IANA considerations > > It would be helpful to name the sub-registries to help IANA get these > allocations right. > > In section 7.1 the registry is "RSVP TE Parameters" (not the registry > quoted in section 7) and the sub-registry is "Attributes Flags" > > In section 7.2 the registry is "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) > Parameters" and the sub-registry is "Error Codes and Globally-Defined > Error Value Sub-Codes" Done. > It is also helpful to supply the precise text you would like added to the > registry. > > For section 7.1: > > Path Resv RRO > Bit Name message message sub-object > Reference > ---- ------------------------------- -------- -------- ---------- --------- > 5 LSP stitching desired bit Yes No Yes > [This doc] > > > For section 7.2: > > 24 Routing Problem [RFC3209] > > 23 = Stitching unsupported [This doc] Done. > === Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:11:19 +0000 Message-ID: <005501c75bf2$0e023f30$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:05:51 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >From which response, I interpret Dimitri as saying that: "Further, technology-specific documents might be written to define standard encoding of this (and other?) fields of the ISCD sub-TLV." Is that correct? The text in 4.2 appears more definitive than that. Perhaps, if the text shows just a potential encoding and not a defined encoding, you might consider making that very clear of removing the text? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>; <owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > hi vijay > > technology specific information encoding as part > of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV > is outside scope of this document, that defines > the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF > > the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to > clearly indicate where this information has to be > encoded but is not going to be further detailed > > in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is > outside the scope of the document > > thanks, > - d. > > > > > > "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 01/03/2007 03:35 > > To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> > cc: > Subject: Question on > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > > > Hi, > > In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: > > In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit > tuples of the form <signal_type (8 bits); number of unallocated > timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated in the > technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the > switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, > format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. > > The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The > signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, > NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, > STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. > > It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the > different types of signal types. > > Thanks and best regards, > > Vijay > > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:56:46 +0000 To: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <OFDC254AA4.E9A1D2E0-ONC1257291.002B139B-C1257291.002B7A75@netfr.alcatel.fr> From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:54:53 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi vijay technology specific information encoding as part of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV is outside scope of this document, that defines the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to clearly indicate where this information has to be encoded but is not going to be further detailed in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is outside the scope of the document thanks, - d. "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 01/03/2007 03:35 To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> cc: Subject: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Hi, In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit tuples of the form <signal_type (8 bits); number of unallocated timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated in the technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the different types of signal types. Thanks and best regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:34 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:55 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010508.l2158tJn014315@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4803 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4803 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 42 Characters: 79925 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4803.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:26 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:09:47 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010509.l2159lHs014320@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4802 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4802 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 60 Characters: 118164 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-te-mib-16.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4802.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:18 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:07 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010510.l215A71k014332@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4801 on Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4801 Title: Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 9 Characters: 16347 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-tc-mib-11.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4801.txt This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS-related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:36:23 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8" Subject: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080B0@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Thread-Index: AcdbqkwudMWow1z7QOGdxW9tcuWY1A== From: "Pandian, Vijay" <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: =20 In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit=20 tuples of the form <signal_type (8 bits); number of unallocated=20 timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated in the=20 technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the=20 switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included,=20 format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202].=20 =20 The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. = The signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like = RCC, NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c = SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. =20 It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all = the different types of signal types. =20 Thanks and best regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1561" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D423470116-20022007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D423470116-20022007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007>In = section 4.2=20 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says:</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D423470116-20022007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D423470116-20022007> In the=20 ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit = <BR> =20 tuples of the form <signal_type (8 bits); number of unallocated=20 <BR> timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated = in the=20 <BR> technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute = when=20 the <BR> switching capability field is set to TDM value. = When=20 included, <BR> format and encoding MUST follow the rules = defined in=20 [RFC4202]. <BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT = size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D714532302-01032007>T</SPAN>he signal type<SPAN = class=3D714532302-01032007>s=20 a</SPAN>s defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1<SPAN = class=3D714532302-01032007>=20 covers a basic set.</SPAN> <SPAN = class=3D714532302-01032007>T</SPAN>he=20 signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, = NCC,=20 etc., to determine <SPAN=20 class=3D714532302-01032007>other</SPAN> Elementary Signal<SPAN=20 class=3D714532302-01032007> such as STS-12c SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c = SPE=20 etc.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 class=3D714532302-01032007></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><SPAN = class=3D714532302-01032007><FONT=20 face=3DArial>It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to = cover all=20 the different types of signal types.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><SPAN = class=3D714532302-01032007><FONT=20 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT = size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Thanks and best regards,</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT = size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D423470116-20022007><FONT = size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Vijay</FONT></DIV></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTM= L> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8--
- Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Adrian Farrel
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Monique Morrow
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT hhelvoort
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Adrian Farrel
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Adrian Farrel
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Huub van Helvoort
- Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Adrian Farrel