Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00
denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com> Sat, 23 November 2019 02:39 UTC
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From: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:38:56 -0600
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To: Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, Daniel Van Geest <Daniel.VanGeest@isara.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, curdle <curdle@ietf.org>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)" <pkampana@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00
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Those are all valid concerns, however the XMSS key could conceivably be located on a smart card which contains the key and solves all these concerns. An RFC could spell out in all caps that use on a dedicated device is the only usage case recommended. On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:04 PM Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> wrote: > On Thu, 2019-11-21 at 22:44 -0500, Watson Ladd wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:44 PM Daniel Van Geest < > Daniel.VanGeest@isara.com> > > wrote: > > > > > NIST will issue a special publication on stateful hash-based signatures > > > before the rest of the PQ process completes. Based on today’s date I’d > > > hazard a guess that the publication will be next year. > > > > > > > > > > > > XMSS/HSS is better suited for roots of trust and code signing (and > > > possibly a few other limited cases, the NIST publication may give > guidance > > > here) where the environment where the signature is generated is tightly > > > controlled. I’d possibly support its use for limited end-entity > > > certificates (the only semi-reasonable one I can think of is an EE cert > > > with a private key in an HSM which is used to sign a TLS delegated > > > credential of a different PQ or classical algorithm). > > > > > > > > > > > > The general SSH use case does not fit any tightly-controlled scenario > like > > > above, so I oppose adoption of this draft. > > > > > > > Any protocol where ordinary sysadmin tasks like restoring from backup or > > running salt/Ansible/system de jour can cause a complete and total break > of > > security is unsuitable for a lot of servers. when used in SSH. > Furthermore > > PQ signatures aren't needed yet: you cannot retroactively attack > > authorization they way you can encryption. I also oppose adoption. > > I am also very concerned about allowing such a fragile construct for > SSH specifically. > > Among all the issues mentioned above I want to add that in practice ssh > keys are used concurrently by multiple binaries in modern software > distributions. > > For example OpenSSH my be used by an interactive user at the same time > as another automated process uses libssh. If these processes use the > same keys without the coordination of a tightly controlled key > management solution (like an HSM, or a special daemon, or some form of > mandatory file locking and IPC) we will see an immediate disaster. > > Moreover, private keys are commonly copied between different systems by > users, that behavior is perfectly fine and common nowadays but would be > catastrophic with this mechanism. > > My 2c. > simo. > > -- > Simo Sorce > RHEL Crypto Team > Red Hat, Inc > > > > >
- [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ss… Daniel Migault
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… denis bider
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… denis bider
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Daniel Van Geest
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Simo Sorce
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… denis bider
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Hubert Kario
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Simo Sorce
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Hammell, Jonathan F
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Daniel Migault
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Salz, Rich
- [Curdle] Fwd: call for adoption for draft-mu-curd… Daniel Migault
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… denis bider
- Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdl… Daniel Migault