Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activity hitherto known as "RTC-WEB at IETF"
Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Tue, 18 January 2011 11:28 UTC
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:31:21 +0100
From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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To: Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "tom.taylor@huawei.com" <tom.taylor@huawei.com>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "rtc-web@alvestrand.no" <rtc-web@alvestrand.no>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activity hitherto known as "RTC-WEB at IETF"
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On 01/18/11 11:15, Stefan Håkansson LK wrote: > I agree to that there are situations when a fallback to http (or perhaps WebSockets for a more efficient transport!) is required. > > But I don't think the http streaming solutions are the answer. Those solutions to my understanding build on chopping up a stream into segments, and each segment is represented by a file. Each segment is typically several seconds long, and that is not sufficient for conversational services where the mouth-to-ear delay should be far below 1 second (yes, we should discuss if there should be a requirement, and what it should be in that case). > > Sure you could use much shorter segments, but with all the encapsulation/wrapping data the overhead would get really big. There are multiple HTTP streaming options. Let's not confuse ourselves with saying "HTTP streaming" without referring to a specific proposal - they're just too different. (and mea culpa - I need to do that too...) >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] >> Sent: den 17 januari 2011 19:33 >> To: Marshall Eubanks >> Cc: Bernard Aboba; Stefan Håkansson LK; tom.taylo@huawei.com; >> markus.isomaki@nokia.com; rtc-web@alvestrand.no; dispatch@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activity >> hitherto known as "RTC-WEB at IETF" >> >> Another way (that I know is in production) is to use RTP with >> a thin shim layer (length fields) to provide packet >> separation, straight over TCP. If we are certain we have to >> support RTP-over-UDP, that might be the solution that has the >> lowest extra implementation cost over the UDP solution. >> >> But I suspect this will have to be decided based on a set of >> requirements, not just a beauty contest. >> >> What is the added value of the MPEG-2 wrappers? >> >> On 01/17/11 18:23, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> On Jan 17, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote: >>> >>>> +1. >>>> >>>> One place where we could "spend our energy wiser" might be >> on enabling interoperability >>>> of HTTP transported realtime media. Although >> peer-to-peer traffic is more desirable when >>>> possible, "HTTP fallback" is in practice required a significant >>>> fraction of the time, due to the prevalence of highly >> restrictive firewalls. >>> I would agree, and that raises the issue of the "wrapper" >> for HTTP streaming. Note that Apple uses MPEG-2 TS for the >> wrapper for its live http video streaming. >>> ( Each media file MUST >>> be formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream, an MPEG-2 >> Program Stream, >>> or an MPEG-2 audio elementary stream - >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-01 ) >>> >>> While this is certainly standards based, I do not think it >> matches or interoperates with anyone else's HTTP streaming. >> And, of course, this is an I-D still. Flash also does http >> streaming, but I believe it uses its own, proprietary, wrapper. >>> So, is specifying a media transport protocol for http >> streaming in scope ? >>> Regards >>> Marshall >>> >>> >>>>> From: stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com >>>>> To: tom.taylo@huawei.com; harald@alvestrand.no; >>>>> Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com >>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 15:17:51 +0100 >>>>> CC: rtc-web@alvestrand.no; dispatch@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RTW] [dispatch] Charter proposal: The >> activity hitherto known as "RTC-WEB at IETF" >>>>>> I agree that at least for the time being it is more fruitful to >>>>>> focus the energy elsewhere. There is plenty of useful >> work that can >>>>>> be done about media transport (the datagram service and the >>>>>> potential bytestream >>>>>> ) and the associated APIs, and I suggest we focus on >> that. We can >>>>>> try our luck with the codec thing later on. >>>>> I agree. Codec discussions seem to go on forever, and we >> could spend >>>>> our energy wiser. >>>>> >>>>> Stefan >>>>> >>>>> PS Sorry for answering late, but I did not follow dispatch. I >>>>> thought all related messages would go on rtc-web as well. >> So those >>>>> of you who do not follow dispatch: perhaps you should >> look into the dispatch archive. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> RTC-Web mailing list >>>>> RTC-Web@alvestrand.no >>>>> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dispatch mailing list >>>> dispatch@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>
- [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hithert… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Harald Alvestrand
- [dispatch] dearly love packet inspection Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] dearly love packet inspection Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] dearly love packet inspection Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] dearly love packet inspection Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] dearly love packet inspection Justin Uberti
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] dearly love packet inspection Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Elwell, John
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] dearly love packet inspection Justin Uberti
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] dearly love packet inspection Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Elwell, John
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Alex Eleftheriadis
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Alex Eleftheriadis
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Tom Taylor
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Stephen Botzko
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] Charter proposal: The activity hit… Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Charter proposal: The activi… David Singer