Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Rate control and codec adaption (Re: The charter formerly know as RTC-WEB take 3)
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Fri, 21 January 2011 08:10 UTC
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References: <C95E1C08.1838B%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> <4D3939CE.5090208@alvestrand.no> <BBF498F2D030E84AB1179E24D1AC41D611CD2F1EE3@ESESSCMS0362.eemea.ericsson.se>
From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:12:32 -0800
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To: Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
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Cc: DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "rtc-web@alvestrand.no" <rtc-web@alvestrand.no>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Rate control and codec adaption (Re: The charter formerly know as RTC-WEB take 3)
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RTCP typically isn't sent frequently enough to allow for real-time adjustments in bitrate. TFRC provides a nice mechanism for controlling bitrate in real-time, but the work to apply TFRC to RTP has not yet been codified into a standard. There was a draft but it has been abandonded ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avt-tfrc-profile-10) On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Stefan Håkansson LK < stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com> wrote: > My view: we are discussing a problem already solved! The common procedure > would be to use info in the RTCP reports from the receiving end to change > the transmitted bit rate (if change is required). > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] > *Sent:* den 21 januari 2011 08:46 > *To:* Henry Sinnreich > *Cc:* Stefan Håkansson LK; Stephen Botzko; Cullen Jennings; > rtc-web@alvestrand.no; DISPATCH list > *Subject:* Rate control and codec adaption (Re: [RTW] [dispatch] The > charter formerly know as RTC-WEB take 3) > > On 01/21/2011 12:06 AM, Henry Sinnreich wrote: > > >Minor comment: I think all codecs that have been discussed (except for > G.711) are adaptive in the sense that their bitrate can be adapted. > > It is not clear to me how to avoid the codec adaptation mechanism fighting > the rate control mechanism, without some guidance in the standard for > developers. > Can you explain? > > Changing the subject to content of thread.... > > are we reducing to a previously solved problem, or to a previously unsolved > problem? > I don't see how this problem actually differs from the one that people will > have when operating RTP under TFRC (draft-ietf-avt-tfrc-profile-10). > > > Thanks, Henry > > > On 1/20/11 2:02 PM, "Stefan Håkansson LK" < > stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Minor comment: I think all codecs that have been discussed (except for > G.711) are adaptive in the sense that their bitrate can be adapted. > > Br, > Stefan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Stephen Botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com<stephen.botzko@gmail.com>] > > *Sent:* den 20 januari 2011 16:45 > *To:* Henry Sinnreich > *Cc:* Stefan Håkansson LK; Cullen Jennings; DISPATCH list; > rtc-web@alvestrand.no > *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-WEB take 3 > > > >>> > How does this fit with adaptive codecs? > >>> > Just because some codecs can adapt doesn't mean rate adaptation/congestion > control should be left out of the scope. I think it needs to be > considered. > > >>> > Hint: codec selection matters, is actually critical to this effort. > >>> > Codec selection does matter, but I am not convinced that mandatory codecs > need to be in the RFCs. I believe market forces are sufficient - SIP > itself is one proof point. > > Stephen Botzko > > > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Henry Sinnreich < > henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > 2. The second one is about rate adaptation/congestion control. It is not > > mentioned at all. I don't know if it is needed, perhaps it is enough > that > > RFC3550 (that is already pointed at) has a section about it, but I > wanted to > > highlight it. > > How does this fit with adaptive codecs? > Hint: codec selection matters, is actually critical to this effort. > > Thanks, Henry > > > On 1/20/11 3:52 AM, "Stefan Håkansson LK" < > stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Cullen, > > > > two comments: > > > > 1. As requirements on the API are explicitly described, I thinke that > there > > should be a comment that the API must support media format negotiation. > > Proposal: "The API must enable media format negotiation and application > > influence over media format selection". > > > > 2. The second one is about rate adaptation/congestion control. It is not > > mentioned at all. I don't know if it is needed, perhaps it is enough > that > > RFC3550 (that is already pointed at) has a section about it, but I > wanted to > > highlight it. > > > > Br, > > Stefan > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>] On > Behalf Of Cullen Jennings > >> Sent: den 18 januari 2011 05:59 > >> To: DISPATCH list > >> Cc: rtc-web@alvestrand.no > >> Subject: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-WEB take 3 > >> > >> > >> In my dispatch co-chair role, I tried to take all the > >> comments I had seen on the list about this charter and see if > >> I could address them in a new version of the charter. I > >> probably messed up in some places. There were some > >> conversation that did not seem to be converging so I did not > >> make any changes for theses. Have a read and if you think > >> something needs to be changed, propose text changes along > >> with the reasons why and we will keep the evolving this charter. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Cullen > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -------------------- > >> > >> Version: 3 > >> > >> Possible Names: > >> > >> RTCWEB > >> WEBRTC > >> STORM: Standardized Transport Oriented for Realtime Media > >> BURN: Browsers Using Realtime Media > >> WAVE: Web And Voice/Video Enablement > >> WAVVE: Web And Voice Video Enablement > >> REALTIME > >> WEBCOMM > >> WREALTIME > >> WEBTIME > >> WEBFLOWS > >> BRAVO Browser Realtime Audio and VideO > >> COBWEB COmmuication Between WEBclients > >> WHEELTIME > >> > >> > >> > >> Body: > >> > >> Many implementations have been made that use a Web browser to > >> support direct, interactive communications, including voice, > >> video, collaboration, and gaming. In these implementations, > >> the web server acts as the signaling path between these > >> applications, using locally significant identifiers to set up > >> the association. Up till now, such applications have > >> typically required the installation of plugins or > >> non-standard browser extensions. There is a desire to > >> standardize this functionality, so that this type of > >> application can be run in any compatible browser and allow > >> for high-quality real-time communications experiences within > >> the browser. > >> > >> Traditionally, the W3C has defined API and markup languages > >> such as HTML that work in conjunction with with the IETF over > >> the wire protocols such as HTTP to allow web browsers to > >> display media that does not have real time interactive > >> constraints with another human. > >> > >> The W3C and IETF plan to collaborate together in their > >> traditional way to meet the evolving needs of browsers. > >> Specifically the IETF will provide a set of on the wire > >> protocols, including RTP, to meet the needs on interactive > >> communications, and the W3C will define the API and markup to > >> allow web application developers to control the on the wire > >> protocols. This will allow application developers to write > >> applications that run in a browser and facilitate interactive > >> communications between users for voice and video > >> communications, collaboration, and gaming. > >> > >> This working group will select and define a minimal set of > >> protocols that will enable browsers to: > >> > >> * have interactive real time voice and video pairwise be > > > _______________________________________________ > RTC-Web mailing listRTC-Web@alvestrand.nohttp://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web > > > > _______________________________________________ > RTC-Web mailing list > RTC-Web@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web > >
- [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-WEB t… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Alex Eleftheriadis
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Stephen Botzko
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dispatch] The charter formerly know as RTC-W… Henry Sinnreich
- [dispatch] Rate control and codec adaption (Re: [… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] Rate control and codec adaption (R… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Rate control and codec adapt… Justin Uberti
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Rate control and codec adapt… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Xavier Marjou
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… jeanfrancois.jestin
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… jeanfrancois.jestin
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [dispatch] [RTW] The charter formerly know as… Jonathan Rosenberg