Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size
Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com> Thu, 07 June 2018 14:17 UTC
Return-Path: <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B237B130EF1 for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:17:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.233
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7CFSR_tujSP for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:17:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from linode64.ducksong.com (linode6only.ducksong.com [IPv6:2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe6e:e8da]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BB0130EF7 for <doh@ietf.org>; Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:17:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi0-f48.google.com (mail-oi0-f48.google.com [209.85.218.48]) by linode64.ducksong.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 662FB3A05A for <doh@ietf.org>; Thu, 7 Jun 2018 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by mail-oi0-f48.google.com with SMTP id f79-v6so8752496oib.7 for <doh@ietf.org>; Thu, 07 Jun 2018 07:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1UIhDRS3fjjVi7lGm738WSQBHims+5dTkPU3nupw3qdaRL3W1G UpTlwS7tm5qWOrVT0NaGIa8KhyD7MgUMYZ78+Lw=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLb31vnsmsHyB+KGEThe9gITbr5ACWycblc9ZDpSUXVzZrDs88gVhLlmkJr/oLxpDHao98ZyTXw/DGQIwuUcmc=
X-Received: by 2002:aca:f3c5:: with SMTP id r188-v6mr676260oih.17.1528381052138; Thu, 07 Jun 2018 07:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 2002:a4a:8a32:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20180607093647.GB32326@server.ds9a.nl>
References: <20180606093212.GA23880@server.ds9a.nl> <alpine.DEB.2.11.1806061501340.10764@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <F5774061-35B9-477F-ADDA-8BB3472F30EF@icann.org> <CAOdDvNq9g3ghbg9fkfhP+ZA4-6E5oDNFCGo6NN9bydqUX76cLA@mail.gmail.com> <20180607093647.GB32326@server.ds9a.nl>
From: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 16:17:31 +0200
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CAOdDvNriZDjU9yqUQjqN4fO84ENPWO3si-QePiKRgt+7VJVK0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOdDvNriZDjU9yqUQjqN4fO84ENPWO3si-QePiKRgt+7VJVK0g@mail.gmail.com>
To: bert hubert <bert.hubert@powerdns.com>
Cc: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b1c771056e0df174"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/-dDMctFB1yWop2H2l4cx7dp9Dqw>
Subject: Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 14:17:36 -0000
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:36 AM, bert hubert <bert.hubert@powerdns.com> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 07, 2018 at 09:19:06AM +0200, Patrick McManus wrote: > > it seems possible that this is a property of the default media type not > of > > DoH. e.g. a negotiated json response wouldn't have this kind of > limitation. > > Does that make sense? > > Firstly, it is not a media type limitation. It is a question of if we want > to extend DNS into a territory where it has never been before. The moment > 100 kilobyte DNS answers become possible, we need to redo a ton of > software. > This is true if the end transport is JSON or a DNS message wrapped into an > HTTP response. > > I still think that your argument only applies to the *wireformat media types. New types mean new parsers. It seems your concerns are about existing parsers that, by definition, can't parse the new types. So I'm not concerned about them with new types. > Before typing a lot more characters on this, can I ask who is actually > arguing that we need bigger DNS messages? Who is hurting under the 65536 > byte constraint? DNS over HTTPS implies that we have access to HTTPS. > This > protocol supports messages as large as you want. > > I don't want to constrain what those new types might do based on our current understanding. For instance some media types might be very space inefficient but super efficient to access.. and we might fix that on the wire with a http compression encoding. heck maybe they come back as jpeg visualizations; I'm not here to judge. If we buy my argument then we don't so much as restrict DoH as note that the wireformat media types effectively have this limitation already that needs to be respected.
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Puneet Sood
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mateusz Jończyk
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Sara Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Sara Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Tom Pusateri
- [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Benno Overeinder
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… George Michaelson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Robert Edmonds
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mateusz Jończyk
- [Doh] AXFR as several messages Re: [Ext] DNS Came… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… John Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mark Nottingham
- [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ólafur Guðmundsson
- [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re: DN… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis