Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size
Dave Lawrence <tale@dd.org> Fri, 08 June 2018 23:47 UTC
Return-Path: <tale@dd.org>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07394130DE0 for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6nWKIt_Ry0CJ for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gro.dd.org (gro.dd.org [207.136.192.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5E59130DC0 for <doh@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by gro.dd.org (Postfix, from userid 102) id E673C23F06; Fri, 8 Jun 2018 19:46:56 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <23323.5488.915402.337488@gro.dd.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 19:46:56 -0400
From: Dave Lawrence <tale@dd.org>
To: doh@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <20180608221700.GC8515@mx4.yitter.info>
References: <CAOdDvNq9g3ghbg9fkfhP+ZA4-6E5oDNFCGo6NN9bydqUX76cLA@mail.gmail.com> <20180607093647.GB32326@server.ds9a.nl> <CAOdDvNriZDjU9yqUQjqN4fO84ENPWO3si-QePiKRgt+7VJVK0g@mail.gmail.com> <23321.27027.73356.94056@gro.dd.org> <CAOdDvNr=kLHPCtCHRx4=rpA1oDogQqdAJ0nR156BWABiFP_bzA@mail.gmail.com> <20180607215851.GA32738@server.ds9a.nl> <CAOdDvNqNpZ8fKPCO5sEqjROBHjg4wx-GGPMYSSynode10jeC0Q@mail.gmail.com> <9381B529-B2F4-459A-88EB-4410A4C4DB6F@mnot.net> <CAN6NTqxA4PcrtS_3umwGERLt9WPoX4p0a0u8pL-O2=CKKTBfyA@mail.gmail.com> <23322.62892.251560.128565@gro.dd.org> <20180608221700.GC8515@mx4.yitter.info>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/JnW8TcwyELzrTmReTgam-ai52BQ>
Subject: Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 23:47:01 -0000
Andrew Sullivan writes: > On Fri, Jun 08, 2018 at 05:31:24PM -0400, Dave Lawrence wrote: > > I'm a DNS person > > … You're questioning that assertion? > > Any software that is taking a DoH answer from an HTTPS channel is > > brand new software, not some legacy problem that we have to worry > > about. > > I am surprised to see those two claims in the same email. It is > certainly true that the part of the software that is talking to the > HTTPS channel is new. I am way less convinced that the rest of it > will be, particularly when the draft explicitly says, "The integration > with HTTP provides a transport suitable for both existing DNS > clients…." It does provide a transport suitable for existing DNS clients. DNS/HTTPS carries messages that are usable with existing clients. The possibility of a DNS/HTTPS message being bigger than a DNS/UDP or DNS/TCP client wants to deal with doesn't invalidate that. It means that when interfacing from one transport to the other, you have to be mindful of the difference between them. You *already* have to be mindful of the difference between TCP and UDP. DNS servers can *already* store data that is too big for the largest possible DNS/TCP message. When writing new code *of course* you have to be mindful of the differences between the transports. > Yeah, I'd be much less concerned about if the draft gave those > warnings. Completely agree. So if Patrick and Paul add the warning, you're on board? > I am by no means opposed to this WG saying, "We're the new > transport, and we're Doing It Right, and broken stuff can all be > broken." But we need to carry that bag in through the front door. I'm on board with this. Especially since it hasn't been demonstrated that this would break stuff that any competent programmer writing new code should be able to avoid. If someone is writing DoH code and concerned that they might be pumping a message longer than 64k directly into a API that you are even a little unsure of its ability to handle messages of that size, then don't do that. This is not hard. Especially since if the limits are put in they have to do the check anyway.
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Puneet Sood
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mateusz Jończyk
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Sara Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Sara Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Tom Pusateri
- [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Benno Overeinder
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… George Michaelson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Robert Edmonds
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mateusz Jończyk
- [Doh] AXFR as several messages Re: [Ext] DNS Came… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… John Dickinson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ray Bellis
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mark Nottingham
- [Doh] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and message size Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Ólafur Guðmundsson
- [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re: DN… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Mukund Sivaraman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] DNS Camel thoughts: TC and messag… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… bert hubert
- Re: [Doh] Are we missing an architecture? (was Re… Dave Lawrence
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Are we missing an architecture? (… Ray Bellis