Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03
manu tman <chantr4@gmail.com> Thu, 08 February 2018 21:36 UTC
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From: manu tman <chantr4@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 13:36:11 -0800
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To: Justin Henck <henck@google.com>
Cc: rhewitt@akamai.com, Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>, ek@google.com, doh@ietf.org, mbishop@evequefou.be
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Subject: Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Justin Henck <henck@google.com> wrote: > I am more in favor of a set of simple requirements, so simple client and >> server implementation can exist and provide the basics of DOH >> functionality. >> Optionally, discovery can be used to be more fancy and provide >> extensibility, but at the core of it, I would expect that knowing a domain >> and optionally an IP (to avoid the chicken and egg issue of being able to >> resolve the DOH server IP ) should be enough to be able to access DNS over >> HTTPS using GET at a well known endpoint. > > > I may be misunderstanding, but doesn't this imply either a fixed path, or > a discoverable path via another (e.g. .well-known/dns)? > Yes, I mean to have a fixed well-known path that provides DOH service (as in actual DNS queries) that can be used universally. So, any clients, given a domain, can use DOH without having to go through the steps of service discovery indirections. What I understood from you original comment was to use this as an entry point to discover alternate locations, delegation... I think it is worth it but should be optional. At the end of the day, either accessing a discovery endpoint or DOH service endpoint, the client will need to be told where to get it. Having a predefined entry point would make this easier. > > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:22 PM Hewitt, Rory <rhewitt@akamai.com> wrote: > >> Additionally, using /.well-known/ would allow for URI Template discovery, >> if required - client retrieves URI Template from e.g. >> /.well-known/doh.template and then uses that to build DNS request URI. >> >> >> >> See https://github.com/dohwg/draft-ietf-doh-dns-over-https/issues/74 for >> @mnot's suggestion. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> *Rory Hewitt* >> >> Senior Solutions Architect >> >> Global Services & Support >> >> Akamai Technologies >> >> Tel: (408) 650-0035 >> >> >> >> *From:* Justin Henck [mailto:henck@google.com] >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 11:17 AM >> *To:* ek@google.com >> *Cc:* Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>; doh@ietf.org; >> mbishop@evequefou.be >> *Subject:* Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 >> >> >> >> That would work for the situation I specified, but I think that a >> .well-known pointer provides the additional benefit of serving more >> technical users with an advanced configuration. (It is also in-line with >> the intended use of .well-known as I understand RFC 5785.) >> >> >> >> Specifically, if an implementer creates an advanced setting whereby you >> can configure a DOH server with both a domain and an IP (to eliminate the >> need for bootstrapping) then you have made the user's life easier. And, >> although a URI is not supposed to change, a .well-known/dns pointer >> requirement would ensure that capricious servers don't break >> manually-configured clients. >> >> >> >> >> *Justin Henck* >> Product Manager >> >> 212-565-9811 <(212)%20565-9811> >> >> google.com/jigsaw >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__google.com_jigsaw&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=N-RLQbYhldj1naDovU3jQQtWdiNb5pbKuxXJJ3p663Y&e=> >> >> >> >> PGP: EA8E 8C27 2D75 974D B357 482B 1039 9F2D 869A 117B >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:59 PM Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote: >> >> Sounds like you might want a (TXT) record at the zone cut level? >> >> On 8 February 2018 at 10:55, Justin Henck <henck@google.com> wrote: >> > I would like to see a way for clients to discover a DNS server hosted >> on a >> > certain domain. Perhaps a .well-known/dns path that contains a relative >> > pointer and other metadata. I'm imagining a use case whereby the user >> could >> > choose to rely upon an organization that they find trustworthy which is >> > offering DNS, without needing to do a significant amount of discovery >> (e.g. >> > "maybe known.tld has a DNS server?"). You could of course also have an >> > absolute pointer, but then you have to account for the situation whereby >> > known.tld might delegate to unknown.tld. >> > >> > Justin Henck >> > Google >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:21 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I’m inclined to think this is a positive change. We’re trying to do >> >>> something better than the current world of “trust the local DNS server >> >>> because unauthenticated DHCP says so”, and promiscuous trust just >> because a >> >>> server claims it support DOH via a .well-known endpoint isn’t really >> any >> >>> better. >> >> >> >> >> >> To be clear, the draft never proposed promiscuous trust, which would >> >> indeed be highly problematic. However, draft-03 does include >> additional >> >> language clarifying this point. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> The client should know the hostname(s) of the DOH server(s) it wants >> to >> >>> use >> >> >> >> >> >> In draft-03, "knowing the hostname" is not sufficient, because there >> is no >> >> default path for DOH. This is the change on which I am seeking input. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> , and it should authenticate the DOH server against that hostname. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, definitely. (I believe the draft is clear on this point, but feel >> >> free to suggest improvements.) >> >> >> >>> >> >>> If a server hosts content and also wants to also serve DOH, there >> are >> >>> ways to present a hostname that covers both names (or present two >> >>> certificates) on an HTTP connection. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> From: Doh [mailto:doh-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Schwartz >> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:05 AM >> >>> To: doh@ietf.org >> >>> Subject: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi all, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> The authors of draft-ietf-doh-dns-over-https have been making good >> >>> progress, and a draft-03 is now ready with several changes and >> >>> clarifications. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> One important difference is that draft-03 no longer proposes a >> >>> ".well-known" entry. In draft-02 and prior, clients could check for >> the >> >>> presence of a DOH service at the default path, given only the domain >> name of >> >>> a server. In draft-03, there is no default path, so clients must be >> >>> configured with the full URL of the DOH endpoint. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Is this change compatible with your use cases? Would this alter the >> way >> >>> users interact with your systems? How do you think DOH client >> configuration >> >>> should work? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Please respond with your thoughts, >> >>> >> >>> Ben Schwartz >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Doh mailing list >> >> Doh@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_doh&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=T69zw0O8NFcgM07c8aK0knaf9RoDeSYGFdN_MXSy4a4&e=> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Doh mailing list >> > Doh@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_doh&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=T69zw0O8NFcgM07c8aK0knaf9RoDeSYGFdN_MXSy4a4&e=> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Doh mailing list > Doh@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh > >
- [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Mike Bishop
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Seeking input on draft-03 Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Justin Henck
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Erik Kline
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Justin Henck
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 manu tman
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Justin Henck
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 manu tman
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Justin Henck
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03 Justin Henck