Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis
"Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov> Mon, 27 March 2017 21:21 UTC
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From: "Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>, dtn <dtn@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:21:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis
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Fair enough. I am happy to leave this up to the wisdom of the WG. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 2:19 PM To: Burleigh, Scott C (312B) <scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov>; Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>; dtn <dtn@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis On 27/03/17 22:15, Burleigh, Scott C (312B) wrote: > Okay, if you believe that it is unnecessary to be able to test for the > correct operation of a BP agent -- that is, an implementation of an > Internet standards-track RFC -- then I think we may be at the root of > the issue. Let's continue tomorrow. Sure. To clarify though: I don't believe one needs to be able to verify a fully correct implementation of the BP purely from outside the box. Mail MTAs for example don't have that property and I think email RFCs are fairly good standards. Cheers, S. > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell > [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:37 > PM To: Burleigh, Scott C (312B) <scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov>; Marc > Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>; dtn <dtn@ietf.org> Subject: Re: > [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis > > > Hi Scott, > > On 27/03/17 21:27, Burleigh, Scott C (312B) wrote: >> Hi, Stephen. I won't try to respond to all these points now, but I >> do want to advance a little bit of an argument on your point (B). >> >> If we look at, say, RFC 5681, I think we see a great deal of firmly >> prescriptive text that has nothing to do with what bits are >> transmitted over the wire, and everything to do with how the TCP >> state machine is supposed to behave. > > But 5681 is based on some decades of really widespread deployment. If > the BP were in that position I think you'd have a good argument there, > but it isn't. > >> I think this is true of virtually every MUST in the specification, >> and I think that in the absence of this prescriptive language it >> would be impossible to distinguish a correctly functioning router >> from a broken one -- impossible to test a router for correct >> operation. > > I don't believe that an ability to test such correctness from outside > a router is really necessary nor desirable at this point in the > evolution of the BP. > >> I think the prescriptive language in the BPbis specification is just >> as necessary, for exactly the same reasons. >> >> I understand that you disagree, but I don't yet understand why. > > I guess I'll point at the examples I offered as to why. I look forward > to seeing your (or others') responses to those examples. > > I do hope we agree that egregious/unnecessary MUST statements are a > bad idea though. If so, the question becomes whether or not all these > many MUSTs are needed or not. > > Cheers, S. > >> >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell >> [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 >> 3:06 PM To: Burleigh, Scott C (312B) >> <scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov>; Marc Blanchet >> <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>; dtn <dtn@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [dtn] >> working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis >> >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> Belated responses below. I hope the quoting isn't too messed up to >> follow. >> >> As a TL;DR, I'd say we might be best to debate point (B) below, that >> the current text is overly prescriptive. I'm entirely happy that the >> DoS-vector that would be the current reporting text won't make it to >> the RFC, so am ok if we don't spend so much time on that. >> >> For the "too prescriptive" point, I think you and I Scott have had >> that debate before, so I'd be most interested in other WG >> participants telling me I'm just wrong that all those MUSTs are >> needed for interop. (I mean using some of the examples below that >> refer back to point (B) and not literally a sentence that means the >> same as the sentence before this one:-) >> >> Cheers, S. >> >> On 15/03/17 17:00, Burleigh, Scott C (312B) wrote: >>> Hi. As Rick suggested, I'm posting my thoughts on Stephen's >>> comments to the list in addition to noting them on Ed's spreadsheet >>> - mainly transcribing them but amplifying in a few instances. >>> In-line below. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: dtn [mailto:dtn-bounces@ietf.org] >>> On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell Sent: >>> Monday, January 23, 2017 7:33 PM To: Marc Blanchet >>> <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>; dtn <dtn@ietf.org> Subject: Re: >>> [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis >>> >>> >>> Hiya, >>> >>> I've done a review of bpbis-06 and have many comments. (Sorry:-) >>> >>> Overall I don't think this is ready, and some more discussion of >>> some of the issues is needed. Since I've not followed the list as >>> closely as I'd have liked I may have missed some such discussion in >>> which case pointing me at the relevant bit(s) of the archive would >>> be a fine response. >>> >>> I've tried to separate stuff into things that'd cause me to ballot >>> DISCUSS in IESG evaluation (*), things that might not, and nitty >>> things. I hope that helps, but don't take that categorisation too >>> seriously:-) >>> >>> Cheers, S. >>> >>> (*) Note that I'll likely not still be on the IESG when this gets >>> there (I escape in March) so the fact that I would ballot DISCUSS is >>> not that relevant to what other ADs might do. >>> >>> >>> Possibly major issues (DISCUSS like) >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> (A) intro: The last bullet list of the things that are not specified >>> here seems problematic for a PS and I think needs more >>> discussion/work. I'm not sure if it's only the text that needs work, >>> or if the missing specification is required now. Taking the bullets >>> one at at time (numbers are in order of presentation): 1) This isn't >>> clear enough, I'm not sure what's being omitted, 2) Omitting routing >>> I think is fair, 3) It's also fair to omot RIB/FIB issues, 4) it's >>> not ok to omit security mechanism definition, (making [BPSEC] >>> normative and waiting on that in the RFC editor queue would fix >>> this, and is IMO needed), 5) I'm not sure what's right here. I >>> think it'd be good to have some list discussion about this, as it'll >>> certainly come up in IETF LC and IESG review and having list traffic >>> at which to point will help backup whatever conclusions are reached. >>> In particular in 4.3, I don't think it's acceptable for the BIB and >>> BCB to not have a normative reference. Similarly, the "TBD" for the >>> other extension block types are not appropritate. (But those can >>> likely be informative refs.) >>> >>> - I'm fine with bringing bpsec along at the same time as bp(bis) >>> and tcpcl. >> >> Cool. I think that's the right choice. >> >>> >>> (B) The spec is overly prescriptive in many places and ought be >>> loosened up wherever possible. All we need is interop and not the >>> kind of conformance at which this spec seems to aim (but maybe >>> miss). For exmple the "retention constraint" stuff has absoluely no >>> reason to be a MUST. As another, I think section 5.4 only needs a >>> MUST in step 4 and all the rest are bogus and a bad plan. >>> Also in 3.1, the text here is often far too prescritpive and I >>> suspect based on only a couple of implementation strategies. >>> There are many more examples. I think it'd be a good plan to do an >>> editing pass to get rid of as many of the extraneous and unnecessary >>> constraints that are here. Examples feature in other comments, but >>> I've not tried to be exhaustive in spotting all instances of this. >>> >>> - I disagree. In general, I think this language needs to be >>> normative in order to ensure coherent behavior among nodes of the >>> network. >> >> Yep, I figured we'd not see eye to eye on the broader conformance >> issue, in the same way that we've disagreed about that for about a >> decade now:-) >> >> Nonetheless, I will continue to argue the point, and I note that you >> didn't respond to the examples in the above. Those are only examples, >> but I think some discussion of them may help us to see that the >> current text is (or is not) overly prescriptive. >> >>> >>> (C) Many of the flags relaed to reporting provide ways in which the >>> BP, if it became widely deployed (even if not planned to be widely >>> used), could be a significant (D)DoS accelerator. Has anyone figured >>> out the scale factors involved, (e.g. if N bogus blocks say report >>> if this can't be processed) whether those might be significant and >>> if so what potential countermeasures might apply? Absent such an >>> analysis, or fixing the problem, I'd argue it'd seem irresponsible >>> to standardise the BP. I'd say for a PS, the minimum is that BPAs >>> MUST default to not sending all these new bundles except when >>> specifically configured to be so verbose. >>> This also affects 5.1 and maybe elsewhere which says an agent MUST >>> emit admin bundles if asked. In 5.6, step 2: again the SHOULD needs >>> to be qualified in order to not have the BP be a fine DoS >>> accelerator (given non-singletons). Step 3's SHOULD for this is even >>> worse as a bad actor could include many such blocks. >>> In 5.13 - I think that is too many custody signals. If one envisages >>> DTNs with custodians located at links that are particularly subject >>> to disruption, then those may be few in number and having all other >>> nodes/routers emit custody signals for each bundle not taken into >>> custody seems hugely inefficient and unnecessary. There may be more >>> examples. FWIW, my guess is that if all the current reporting is >>> kept, then the IESG will require some kind of applicability >>> statement about the kind of network in which the BP can safely be >>> deployed. For me, fixing the problem is a better approach than >>> constraining it via an applicability statement. >>> >>> - I agree with making all status report generation "SHOULD" >>> rather than "MUST". But if it is possible to generate status >>> reports (and I think it has to be, for network troubleshooting >>> purposes) then it is always possible for a badly engineered >>> implementation to generate them more frequently than might be >>> optimal in a given network. I'm unclear on how we can legislate >>> against that. Strong language warning the implementer of the >>> possible dangers would be fine with me; is that enough? >>> Something like "Implementations MUST limit the generation of status >>> reports so as to prevent excessive network traffic. >>> Strategies for limiting status report generation are beyond the >>> scope of this specification." >> >> I think that a SHOULD for emitting these is just wrong for the >> Internet. If 10^8 BPAs were deployed (there are maybe that many web >> sites) and each by default will emit these reports then that'd be >> just crazy as they could be per-hop and could bounce around all over >> the place. At that scale there'd also no doubt be reports generating >> reports (due to gatewaying even if that was disallowed in the BP) and >> one would get explosions of reports. I think the only defensible >> position is for *all* of these to be specified as "MUST be off by >> default" to be acceptable for a proposed standard. >> >> I would be ok if someone wanted to try characterise the kind of DTN >> or node(s) in which it'd be ok to have these turned on. That could of >> course be done in a separate document later. (Or outside the IETF if >> it was e.g. really better a CCSDS thing.) >> >>> >>> A bit less major (maybe not DISCUSS-worthy) >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> >>> (1) 3.1's definition of a bundle correctly says that bundles are >>> better when they include all the meta-data that might be useful. >>> If considered naively, that conflicts with modern approaches to >>> privacy where we want to ensure that meta-data is only seen by those >>> (nodes) that need to see meta-data, as one form of data >>> minimisation. OTOH, one could argue that such bundles will ensure >>> that meta-data and payloads enjoy the same security services, which >>> is a good thing. In any case, I think it'd be useful to have a >>> discussion about the privacy aspects of the BP, esp the ways in >>> which those may be different from other protocols. For example, >>> would we expect report-to URIs to commonly allow re-identification >>> of a person? I don't recall we've ever really discussed such issues. >>> >>> - I think having that discussion would be fine. I don't think >>> that discussion has to happen in this specification, nor that it has >>> to happen before this specification is published. >> >> Disagree. I think now is exactly the right time to do a privacy >> analysis. Later will be too late, if the protocol gets deployed at >> scale. Note that I'm not arguing that the result has to be a BP with >> fully understood and perfect privacy features. >> >>> >>> (2) 3.1, destination: I think this ought be clear that delivery to >>> some node in the endpoint represents success, i.e. that the BP does >>> not force successful delivery to all or failure as a binary choice. >>> >>> - The spec doesn't define "success" at all, and I don't know why >>> it would need to. >> >> Sure, but I was more asking for clarity - I didn't find it to be that >> well explained what kind of effort(s) are expected with endpoints >> containing >1 node. >> >>> >>> (3) What bad things would follow if 3.2 was deleted? It may be that >>> I'm too familiar with DTN (and hence not a good judge if this >>> section is useful or not) but I didn't find it useful. Also >>> - is 3.2 normative? If not, I'm even happier to see it go. If it is, >>> then I gotta wonder if it conflicts with other text later. >>> And I see there are a few 2119 MUSTs in there so I guess you do mean >>> it to be normative or did they sneak in in by accident whilst >>> editing? (As can happen.) If not deleting this section, I'd argue to >>> find all the bits of text in it that are needed and move them all >>> elsewhere and then delete the section. >>> >>> - I think 3.2 is essential to the specification. I'm fine with >>> moving the 2119 language to another section, if that helps. >> >> Again, I don't think we'll agree here, as with point (B) above:-) >> >> I note that you've not given an argument for including 3.2 though >> other than stating that it's essential, and I did ask what'd be lost >> if it were deleted so that seems not highly responsive. >> >>> >>> (4) 3.2: The idea that the EID fully determines the MRG seems just >>> wrong to me. While that might be a nice theory, I figure it's way >>> more likely that the routing scheme determines how many copies of a >>> bundle are rx'd at how many instances of the destination EID. What'd >>> be bad about losing that concept and letting (the determinants of) >>> the MRG be unspecified here? >>> >>> - I think that would make the behavior of nodes so indeterminate >>> that it can't be tested. >> >> I don't get that. Given that we're not defining routing here, aren't >> we in that position already? We can't for example tell if a node >> emitting 10 copies of a bundle at different times, to different next >> hops, on different interfaces etc. is good or bad or not. >> >>> >>> (5) 3.2, "Custody of a bundle MAY be taken only if the destination >>> of the bundle is a singleton endpoint." That's plain wrong. Not all >>> custodians can know about the desitnation being a singleton or not. >>> And before you say it, I don't believe in the flag in 4.1.3 that >>> allows an origin to specify this - I've never seen a real example of >>> when that's useful - the only nearby case I recall was where the >>> developer (me:-) knew we wanted distibution to all nodes in a >>> multi-member endpoint but with best effort in terms of getting to >>> them all and with custody and less frequent application layer >>> re-tx's to ensure we got to as many as possible. This also affects >>> 5.2. >>> >>> - "Singleton" doesn't say how many nodes are in the endpoint. It >>> says what the maximum number of nodes in the endpoint is. The >>> source node should know this. >> >> Huh? How can a source know that in general? I maintain my >> position:-) >> >>> >>> (6) 3.3, I'm not sure this is useful either. What'd break if it were >>> deleted? (But then I never liked those bits of DTNRG's work >>> either;-) >>> >>> - Sure, don't care. >> >> (I'll skip over stuff where there's little or nothing more to say, >> like this one:-) >> >>> >>> (7) Including some examples and an RFC 7942 implementation status >>> section would be a good thing, if easily done. That would help >>> progression and increase confidence in the correctness of the spec. >>> >>> - I don't think this is really necessary, but I don't mind >>> adding an implementation status section. >>> >>> (8) 4.1.6: Was sub-second timing discussed by the WG? I'm not >>> terribly pushed on that myself, but it'd be a shame to do an interop >>> breaking change in the BP without discussing that topic. >>> A reason to think about this is that there may be inter-VM (or >>> intra-data-centre) reasons to consider the BP with sub-second timing >>> as interesting. It'd be a shame to make that impossible just to make >>> it slightly simpler to represent time. >>> >>> - It was discussed by the WG, and I believe we concluded that >>> sub-second time representation wasn't needed here. >> >> That makes me a bit sad. If anyone else would like sub-second timing >> maybe now'd not be too late if we ask nicely? >> >>> >>> (9) 4.2.2, creation time rules: I don't see why it'd be a problem if >>> node-id=X, creation-time=0,counter=0,lifetime=2s is used in two >>> bundles emitted 3 seconds apart. Why does that justify a MUST NOT in >>> the spec? >>> >>> - I agree with Ed on this. There may be purposes for which a >>> log of bundles may be needed; that's impossible if bundles are not >>> uniquely identified. >> >> (I'm not sure I saw Ed's argument, I guess it was not on the list, >> sorry if I missed it.) >> >> I'd be a bit concerned that the MUST NOT is too hard to nodes without >> good clocks and will just be ignored across reboots. If other code >> elsewhere (e.g. log analysis) depended on a fiction from here that'd >> not be great. >> >>> >>> (10) 4.2.2: The "30 seconds" rule also seems wrong to me, as is the >>> "MUST NEVER" (not a 2119 term btw) for re-use of the seq no, which >>> is unrealistic. As an example of that last: what do you expect to >>> happen with a node that usually knows the wall clock time, but, at >>> this moment, knows that it does not? E.g. previous logs have some >>> real dates, but current clock is 1970-01-01 or whatever. I think >>> this is fixable but the current language is too prescriptive. Best >>> might be to weaken the language here and to see what implementations >>> do in the real world. >>> >>> - Sure. >>> >>> (11) 4.3.1: Is the SHALL here right? I would have thought a SHOULD >>> is better to allow for legacy interop with 5050 via gateways, in >>> which case there may be no node ID. That might be better off handled >>> in some generic fashion though, and not piecemeal with each mention >>> of node ID. >>> >>> - There are node IDs in 5050 also, >> >> Well, sorta but not really. IIRC implementations and deployments >> mostly did include the moral-equivalent but didn't have to. >> >>> they're just not called by that term. I think SHALL is correct >>> here. >> >> But fair enough, if nobody else cared, I'd fold on this one. >> >>> >>> (12) 4.3.2: I don't believe it is correct to drop a bundle due to >>> the lack of a previous node block, which is what sems to be implied >>> here. Not all routing schemes need this and so it ought not be a >>> MUST. Maybe a SHOULD is enough, but even if you say "MUST insert >>> this" then I would like to argue that "receivers can decide to not >>> care" be stated explicitly e.g. by saying that bundles MUST NOT be >>> rejected solely due to the lack of this EB. >>> >>> - I think this will be a source of headaches eventually, but >>> sure, we can relax this. >>> >>> (13) I'm not sure if you have all the right "watch out for the null >>> EID node ID" text needed. (I didn't go back over everything, but >>> it'd seem wrong e.g. in an current custodian AR. >>> >>> - I don't think there's an issue here, but sure, let's re-read >>> with this in mind. >>> >>> (14) 5.4: "The bundle protocol agent MUST determine which node(s) to >>> forward the bundle to." That's ungrammatical and close to BS - what >>> if I want to multicast or broadcast the bundle or use some other >>> opportunistic CLA? Or a sneakernet where nobody knows who'll be next >>> hop. >>> >>> - Of course the BPA must determine which node(s) to forward the >>> bundle to. What else is going to make that determination? >>> Nothing in the spec says it has to make that determination right >>> now; maybe it sets the bundle aside for a while until a data mule >>> comes along - and then it determines that this data mule is one of >>> the nodes to forward the bundle to. The text is correct. >> >> Disagree. A BPA might decide to send the bundle on an interface >> that's broadcast in nature and not care who turns out to be the next >> hop that e.g. accepts custody. I think the text reflects a quite >> narrow conception of a CLA. >> >>> >>> (15) 5.4: The text about the flow label should be deleted as it says >>> nothing. If includng this, then the flow label spec may need to be a >>> normative ref (arguably). >>> >>> - Okay. >>> >>> (16) 5.4 - I think this is badly misleading. There will be many >>> cases where a bundle cannot be forwarded now but may be forwarded >>> later. Am I wrong in reading this section as precluding that? >>> >>> - You are wrong in reading this section as precluding deferred >>> transmission. >> >> Maybe it needs rewording then. (Happy to look over it with you >> later.) >> >>> >>> (17) 5.6, step 4 says one MUST handle "custody transfer redundancy" >>> but that term seems undefined. >>> >>> - Sure, let's add a clause saying "this condition is termed >>> 'custody transfer redundancy'". >>> >>> (18) 5.6 (step 5) points back to 5.3 which points to 5.7 or 5.4. >>> I don't think such GOTOs are a good idea really. I suggest removing >>> lots of this and adding in some informative (i.e. >>> non-normative) pseudo code (or real code) as an appendix. >>> >>> - I disagree. >> >> See point (B) above I guess:-) >> >>> >>> (19) I think some rules related to custody and fragmentation may be >>> missing. For example, if bundle A is multicast and reaches two nodes >>> on different paths who take custody (custodians C1/C2) and who both >>> fragment but differently (into F11/F12 and F21/F22 resp) with >>> eventually a custody ack for F21 reaching C1. Assume F21 is longer >>> than F11, what is C1 to do with F11 when a custody timer expires? >>> Ought it re-transmit or consider that the custody ack for F21 >>> matched F11 sufficiently well? I'm not sure what'd be right here, >>> if such cases can happen. I'd be fine with the spec admitting that >>> some such corner cases exist, or maybe it's easy enough to figure >>> out, not sure. >>> >>> - I don't think there is a problem. Custody transfer is >>> undefined if the destination endpoint is not singleton. >> >> I wasn't referring to the destination here, C1/C2 are just routers on >> paths to that destination. So I do think there's a problem, sorry. >> >>> >>> (20) 5.10.1, I've always wondered why custody timer expiry is >>> covered here, and not really considered a part of DTN routing. It >>> seems to me to make more sense to couple custody timing and routing. >>> If that resonated with folks, I think the change would be to make >>> the timer-related text here into an illustrative example and to say >>> that such things are better considered together with routing and/or >>> by chunks of code that are somewhat more topology/disruption-aware >>> of the situation in the particular DTN. >>> >>> - Custodial retransmission really has nothing to do with >>> routing. >> >> I guess we disagree again there. I'd say with almost all routing >> schemes (CGR and similar being an exception) figuring out the best >> way to handle these timers will be intimately related to routing. >> See also point (B) above:-) >> >>> >>> (21) section 9 seems woefully incomplete - why is it ok to say "will >>> be required" at WGLC? Surely the WG should at least have discussed >>> the set of registries needed and the registration rules for those? >>> E.g. do we sill want CCSDS to be able to add entries to some of >>> those registries as we did with 5050? And has the WG considered how >>> do all the things in this draft relate to the set of IANA registries >>> related to the BP? [1,2] (In the case of [3], section 4.1.5.1 really >>> probably does need to say something.) >>> >>> - Sure, let's review what other registries are needed here. >>> >>> [1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/bundle/bundle.xhtml [2] >>> https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml#uri-s >>> c >>> >>> h >>> >>> > emes-1 >>> >>> Seemingly more minor or nitty things >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> - abstract: "This Internet Draft" is no longer appropriate language. >>> >>> - Sure. >>> >>> - abstract: I think this ought capture the fact that this version is >>> not interoperable with 5050. That's not a bad thing, but worth >>> noting here. >>> >>> - Worth saying, but not in the Abstract. >>> >>> - intro: I don't think the "sales" language is needed or appropriate >>> in the first couple of paras. It should be entirely ok to say "we've >>> learned stuff and fixed stuff." >>> >>> - Sure, whatever. >>> >>> - intro: "Custodial forwarding" is too terse at this point but also >>> hard to explain briefly, is really a mechanism and not a >>> capabililty, and maybe not such a highlight, so I'd delete that >>> bullet >>> >>> - I disagree. Let's turn it into a sentence and keep it. >>> >>> - intro: "[TUT]" is quite outdated and using dtnrg.org for the >>> reference isn't wise (particularly at the moment when we're seeing >>> SERVFAIL from the relevant NS;-) >>> >>> - Sure. >>> >>> - intro: this is a bit self-serving, but maybe a reference to the >>> architectural retrospective [3] that Kevin and I wrote might be >>> useful here, though I've not checked if it touches on enough of the >>> issues behind the differences between 5050 and this. >>> >>> - I don't think this is needed. >>> >>> [3] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4530739 >>> >>> - Figure 1: I wonder if it'd be worth pointing out that the BP does >>> not have to run over a layer 4 that runs over a layer 3 etc. >>> The figure and this text does give that impression that a "proper" >>> transport is needed, which isn't the case. (Tactically, I'm not sure >>> if the text as-is, or something more correct, would make getting a >>> new RFC easier or harder - I guess it'll depend on the reader;-) >>> >>> - No, the spec already says "BP uses underlying "native" >>> transport and/or network protocols". >>> >>> - Figure 2: Few if any of the applications I've used with the BP had >>> an administrative element. That's maybe down to the experimental >>> nature of the work we've done but I don't think it's correct to >>> imply that all applications using the BP need to be able to handle >>> admin records, if that's what you're implying. >>> (I'm not sure.) I'd say indicating that that's an optional thing >>> would be right. >>> >>> - I disagree. The application agent -- not the application -- >>> is the thing that has an administrative element. We could say that >>> a given BPA's application agent might lack an administrative >>> element, in which case the node could not take custody of a bundle. >>> I don't see much advantage in that, but I don't mind saying it. >>> >>> - 3.1, singleton: not sure if it's clear enough that all endpoints >>> are sets, so this may puzzle folks. Maybe add e.g. >>> "remember that endpoints are sets," not sure. >>> >>> - Let's assume that people reading this specification are able to >>> read. >>> >>> - 3.1, forwarding: the text is odd - "sustained effort" is not >>> mandatory, and what "that node" is meant here? >>> >>> - Nothing says how long "sustained" is, but okay, we could >>> delete the word. But I have no idea how to make this sentence any >>> clearer. There is exactly one possible antecedent for "that node". >>> >>> - 4: The first two SHALL statements are odd in that there's no way >>> in which one could implement this spec and not conform to those I >>> think. In cases like that it's fine to avoid 2119 language. Not a >>> big deal though, as the current IESG don't get anal about that, >>> though some ADs in the past have done;-) >>> >>> - I think those statements are needed and are not obvious. >>> >>> - 4: last item MUST be break stop code. Is a decoder supposed to >>> barf a bundle if this is not true? More generally, same question >>> applies for all MUSTs stated only in terms of what the encoding must >>> match. >>> >>> - Let's add a general statement, somewhere, to the effect that >>> the bundle protocol agent MAY discard any malformed bundle it >>> receives. >>> >>> - 4.1.1: why >1 CRC type? That seems bogus. None or strong seems >>> better to me. (And I'd go for a crypto hash for strong.) I assume >>> the WG discussed this and found that there are real use-cases for >>> each of those specified. While those don't need to be in the spec, >>> can someone tell me what they are as I'm not at all sure, e.g. why a >>> 16 bit CRC is useful as an option. >>> >>> - The WG discussed this and settled on these options. See email >>> list traffic starting on 18 January 2016. >>> >>> - 4.1.3: "enables anonymous bundle transmission" - that's >>> overstated, chances are that something in the CLA will be >>> identifying, or allow re-identification, so I think what you want to >>> say is that omitting the source EID helps with, but does not ensure, >>> nymity. >>> >>> - "Anonymous" doesn't mean you can't figure out who did it. >>> "Anonymous" means the identity of whoever did it was not attached to >>> it. The text is correct as written. >> >> Disagree. The term anonymous has a meaning which is not that. >> >>> >>> - 4.1.5.1: RFC3986 is the correct reference here, so the spec text >>> is correct as-is. It may however be worth taking a look at the >>> whatwg web page that has sometimes claimed to supercede 3986 for the >>> browser-related things in which whatwg have an interest. >>> That's just in case there're some useful error handling >>> considerations on the whatwg web page, (on the day you look at >>> it;-). It's also the case that since BP EIDs are URIs, it's possible >>> that strings that comply with today's or yesterday's whatwg web page >>> may end up in the BP, so it'd be good to know if any of those (that >>> are not valid according to 3986) might cause a problem with the CBOR >>> encoding. >>> >>> - If the text is correct, let's leave it. If someone discovers >>> that it is in error for one or more of the reasons proposed, then >>> let's fix it. >>> >>> - 4.1.5.2: Danger, metaphysics! "Every node MUST be a member of at >>> least one singleton endpoint." This entire section is over-thought. >>> I think all you need to say is that nodes the emit bundles need to >>> have an EID they can use as a source EID for as long as necessary. >>> >>> - I disagree. The section is exactly enough-thought. >> >> See point (B) above:-) And "exactly"? :-) >> >>> >>> - 4.2.1: this entire section is duplicative. That's a bad idea. >>> >>> - If the text that it duplicates can be identified then we should >>> remove the duplication. >>> >>> - 4.2.2: 2nd para is badly written - that'd encourage coders to use >>> the values 8,9,10 and 11 in ways that might be unwise. >>> >>> - The text says nothing about using any values in any manner, for >>> good or ill. It only says how many elements are in the array. >>> >>> - 4.2.2: wrt "anonymous" see earlier comment >>> >>> - Correct as written, as noted above. >>> >>> - 4.2.2: description of creation time is duplicative, except the >>> earlier text didn't cover relative time. >>> >>> - This section is not duplicative, it is expansive. >>> >>> - 4.3.3: Is "Bundle Age Block" a good name? BAB used to mean another >>> type of block, so that could confuse maybe. (That said, I forget how >>> long we're had this name.) >>> >>> - There are no longer any Bundle Authentication Blocks. "Bundle >>> Age Block" is a good name. >>> >>> - 4.3.4: Do you need to say that the hop limit MUST NOT be changed, >>> once a hop count EB is added. Also, can any node add one of these, >>> if one was not prevsiously present? >>> >>> - I agree, this needs to be clarified. >>> >>> - 5: It's not necessary to say that new RFCs can supercede this. >>> That's just standard IEFF process. >>> >>> - I don't see what harm this does. For someone who is not >>> steeped in standard IETF process, but wants to read the >>> specification anyway, maybe it would be useful information. >>> >>> - 5.2: mentions "dispatch pending" as if I should know what that is >>> - is all the retention constraint stuff sufficiently explained I >>> wonder? (Personally I don't think you need to mandate all this stuff >>> and you cannot tell if an implementation has done it or not so I'd >>> not bother trying to be so prescriptive.) >>> >>> - All of the retention constraint stuff is explained in detail. >>> I think it's necessary in order to ensure coherent behavior among >>> the nodes of the network. >> >> See point (B) above:-) >> >>> >>> - 5.4: "at the last possible moment... MUST..." that's a bit silly >>> as it seems to require BP code inside a NIC which is not how this'll >>> usually be implemented. >>> >>> - I don't understand the objection. "Last possible moment" is >>> very clearly in the scope of the operation of the CLA, which is BP >>> code. If that happens to be embedded in a NIC, fine, but that's not >>> relevant. >>> >>> - 5.5: I'm not convinced that the MUSTs here are right for all DTNs. >>> I reckon that 5.5 could just as well say "MAY delete" and the BP >>> would be fine. That might also provide some additional flexibility >>> for some rounting schemes. That said, I won't press on this - if >>> this doesn't resonate with folks now, and later turns out to be >>> useful, I don't think we'd have such a hard time modifying BPAs >>> where needed. >>> >>> - Here again I think the normative language is necessary in >>> order to ensure coherent behavior among the nodes of the network. >> >> See point (B) above. >> >>> >>> - 5.6: Again, this is overly prescriptive. >>> >>> - I disagree, again because the normative language is necessary >>> in order to ensure coherent behavior among the nodes of the network. >>> >> >> See point (B) above. >> >>> - 5.6, step 4: I wonder if an implementer will get all this >>> right. >>> >>> - It has been implemented. The implementation works fine. >> >> Yeah, but you've been doing this for ages, it's a new implementer >> we need to consider, starting from the RFC. >> >>> >>> - 5.9: Badly implemented, re-assembly can create a memory >>> consumption DoS vector, perhaps esp. if attempted on a >>> non-destination node. It'd be better to warn about that. And >>> maybe change from MAY for in-path reassembly to SHOULD NOT. >>> >>> - I am doubtful that this specification should be a compendium of >>> implementation tips. >> >> s/MAY/SHOULD NOT/ is way more than a tip >> >>> >>> - 5.11: does this mean that a custodian MUST ignore a custody >>> signal destined for some other custodian? >>> >>> - This text does not imply that the receiving node must ignore a >>> custody signal destined for another custodian. It means exactly >>> what it says, and no more. >>> >>> - Figure 6: I don't get when reason codes 5 to 8 would really be >>> used. Are they in fact needed? (They seem a bit implementation >>> specific to me, but I've not gone looking.) >>> >>> - DTNRG thought these codes would be needed. Let's get more >>> deployment experience before deciding that they are not. >>> >>> - section 8: First sentence is bogus. >>> >>> - Not bogus, but not necessary. Sure, let's delete it. >>> >>> - section 8: [SECO] isn't a good reference. It's outdated and I >>> doubt will be picked up. >>> >>> - Okay. >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ dtn mailing list >> dtn@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn >> > > _______________________________________________ dtn mailing list > dtn@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn > >
- [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-dtn-b… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Burleigh, Scott C (312B)
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Brian Sipos
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… I-Viswanathan, Kapaleeswaran
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Birrane, Edward J.
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Rick Taylor
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Rick Taylor
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Lucas Kahlert
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Burleigh, Scott C (312B)
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Burleigh, Scott C (312B)
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Burleigh, Scott C (312B)
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Burleigh, Scott C (312B)
- Re: [dtn] working group last call on draft-ietf-d… Stephen Farrell