Re: [fdt] Proposed charter text & meeting

Stephen McQuistin <sm@smcquistin.uk> Mon, 07 September 2020 07:54 UTC

Return-Path: <sm@smcquistin.uk>
X-Original-To: fdt@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: fdt@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CF23A017E for <fdt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 00:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=smcquistin.uk header.b=MQVAlqqp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FVpOvNwQ
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A6mBs8vsgXfG for <fdt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 00:54:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 976103A0123 for <fdt@ietf.org>; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 00:54:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04A65C0111; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 03:54:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 07 Sep 2020 03:54:18 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=smcquistin.uk; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=r RPTlq5HAu1jZgNwomPtaVAehoavA3Ucre1Y4P4fFrQ=; b=MQVAlqqpIt6L/izx0 Roytc3FXHX/6n/WzVUPaLt9ECvRy3yVggnWD42nFlesRYhETFwH2k4O9NRruDKDq jCZgA8DYZFGPiSBtv0jrYCkTWpoP1vBOJ3aQhYNcZCzEdyaw1RJvvQT9EQY8fDSQ RDeB3kBrsMONHX9sLeGqoWwzK4WkIb6cYMi5LtedYNXki6OvlhBHcafv1vnQluFp IX/3+KMQs+z+z51b8UDYlRYIrUK2SDxGAvozZOhaGwawjncgOIYBDywpiYv4R6NR ztQZJ99b6LJrdB+Iw9sAYi40FZxP+9CwZV60z7OWld2P2r1ezo0fAUuLyTjdXRyr ZDGgQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=rRPTlq5HAu1jZgNwomPtaVAehoavA3Ucre1Y4P4fF rQ=; b=FVpOvNwQhsHwdn/99qgh8KaHI9BToZaqD8QDaXNnEMvYYo+CRHbc9MSYE VTvXFfG+AAnyBSp+LqzublZceiimJ47VaognGmb4kUZdKAdtvKrv48v5+CgAdAx/ 2HrSq2k4aYMPVsZA384CyjFEVLUhFvKkNp8Z8dnkPXaytio75hYfsoqXLe6jYGpy PUeGVoIUgvUyXbdSIurE0MfhOkVHyK7FjEgKEopvzAaUt9Wx8hBV/ZYf/pRfKy4s DCKNs45rgYTFkR4CuNqLxcV5GNd1RUqGQEmy+2SEjNoIJvFqASbNht1J6Qd8gB3E Xzn02NLtM7Ymzav6o+h3/v+F2S4Og==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:KudVXwuJpGFXtvQJylQRBGVR4SzcknCbmQkaXieEmU2Ioe0rRQiesQ> <xme:KudVX9dXSI7Jx4bDACbrbrCb1OdMmu2EdAe05ugS7Vk7hXU6nJLCG3KKSn8Y1MfNh qfI0V2DLwv4JEOvNXQ>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudegledgjedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepufhtvghp hhgvnhcuofgtsfhuihhsthhinhcuoehsmhesshhmtghquhhishhtihhnrdhukheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepiedtheekvefhgfdtvdfhleekvdeiiedvveegjefguefhueehudff ueehtefhgedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpehhrggtkhhmugdrihhopdhivghtfhdrohhrghenuc fkphepuddtledrudehgedrudelledrvdegtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsmhesshhmtghquhhishhtihhnrdhukh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:KudVX7zoTPdgrKqOqX2fiHxoEWrrJinaiiAaZD3QYVrGXAKncW51bw> <xmx:KudVXzNsCz847rchJ1onFP2P0AxNv68xk1PB-Psot30PPVkk5sEwvQ> <xmx:KudVXw-oWlB31FLWhQ4QuyxOeQ2l1MqmV525NovqUrcuAcMCcdnRjA> <xmx:KudVX5IOufBiSeY2LL5h8D_s9BlJDFHbinuwiC4XyJNK5nzAmzWXpw>
Received: from localhost (host109-154-199-240.range109-154.btcentralplus.com [109.154.199.240]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AB5453064674; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 03:54:17 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\))
From: Stephen McQuistin <sm@smcquistin.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200906132332.GA29463@nic.fr>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:54:15 +0100
Cc: fdt@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <03ADDAB1-2298-49E5-ABA8-3A0241663D39@smcquistin.uk>
References: <16D9B498-78F0-41AB-BAFC-77250C084A33@smcquistin.uk> <20200906132332.GA29463@nic.fr>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/fdt/ci88UVxQQnZR9tSboUmLUnVqy0w>
Subject: Re: [fdt] Proposed charter text & meeting
X-BeenThere: fdt@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list for the discussion of the use of formal description techniques in IETF documents <fdt.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/fdt>, <mailto:fdt-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/fdt/>
List-Post: <mailto:fdt@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:fdt-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fdt>, <mailto:fdt-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 07:54:21 -0000

Hi,

> On 6 Sep 2020, at 14:23, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 09:00:25AM +0100,
> Stephen McQuistin <sm@smcquistin.uk> wrote 
> a message of 88 lines which said:
> 
>> I've produced draft charter text:
>> 
>>    https://hackmd.io/@fdt/S1wTyI-fv <https://hackmd.io/@fdt/S1wTyI-fv>
> 
> I would delete the "The incremental, distributed, and consensus-driven
> standards development process adopted by the IETF can lead to" because
> there is no proof (or even hint) that the problem of "inconsistencies
> and ambiguities" would be solved by a more formal and bureaucratic
> top-down process.

It wasn’t intended to imply that the incremental, distributed, and consensus-drive elements of the standards process are, on their own, causes of inconsistencies and ambiguities. I meant it to be taken to with the next sentence, to imply that:

incremental, distributed, consensus-driven approach → use of natural language → inconsistencies and ambiguities

Will bash on these two sentences.

> Also, may be we could add in the charter references to relevant RFC
> (RFC 4977) and existing work
> such as draft-mcquistin-augmented-ascii-diagrams or to past work such
> as the FSM BoF at IETF 68 in Prague
> <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/68/fsm.html>?

Agreed.

Thanks,

Stephen