[hrpc] Re: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-ipvc-02.txt

[Timothy Holborn <[e-mail]>]

🙏

On Tue, 4 Nov 2025, 1:46 pm Sofia Celi, <[e-mail]> wrote:

> This is very interesting, Timothy.
>
> > IMHO: the https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-listings <https://
> > www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-listings>  provides texts, that should
> have
> > existing legislative supports of some kind in various jurisdictions,
> > although often without deliberations having been made previously with
> > respect to the implications of internet,which in relation to the notion
> > of the humanitarian need for a (safe) home (indeed, not unlike that of
> > many species), is very broad...
>
> Do you think we should propose also the idea of "safe digital space",
> "safe devices"? I'm happy to start drafting something on those regards..
>

I'll have to think more about it... As to give the considerations the
proper - present day - consideration.




>  > There are also a variety of very important use-cases involving
>  > children.  people have the right to be in a happy relationship and/or
>  > leave.  evidence systems are of enormous importance for courts of law,
>  > sought to make decisions about the lives of young-ones..  there's some
>  > stats, but often far more data than published statistical products,
>  > etc.  which makes it a difficult problem to address...
>  >
>
> Agreed. We are also starting a draft on digital abuse in the children
> case. I hope I can share by next week.


See:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-rights-child


Therein, human rights & particularly also, those of children.

Related thoughts (although perhaps also, a bit tangential);

Many of the sorts of things needed to better support the human rights of
children, also end up helping to address problems that adults of various
forms of cohorts also experience problems with.

Whether it be personal biometric as an extension of their being (face, DNA,
stuff that's easier than our "mindware" and related AI
(institutional/corporate - both foreign, Domestic and interop
internationally) or rights frameworks/ fabrics, that are more complex than
traditional Intellectual Property Law applications upon info sphere assets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infosphere



The work on credentials (verifiable credentials or whatever their called
nowadays) was intended to work with RWW or what's commonly referred to as
solid or indeed also, other "mydata" solutions (and/or similar).  Therein,
work on defining rights frameworks might consider that memories don't
actually get deleted and shape our world views, through our experiences.
Therein, relationships evolve overtime.  So, say a couple grows together
from a date of meeting, then shares many of their IoT keys, related
possessions - maybe makes some naughty media together..   then later, they
break up.

IoT permissions all changed.  But if they had an agreement between one
another, the whatever the terms were remain in place even if the
relationship changes (or, as directed by law or a court of law, etc).

The work on "ADP" that I started but haven't progressed yet

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDH5eaIF_zc&t=2024s

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-119-hotrfc-sessa-09-agent-discovery-protocol/

https://mediaprophet.github.io/init-draft-standards-wip/ADP/

(All poorly drafted ATM)
Was also intended to then be expanded to support agreement between agents
(ie: people)

https://mediaprophet.github.io/init-draft-standards-wip/agreements/

(Also, poorly drafted ATM).

Which was then intended to work with rsf versions of human rights
agreements & similar.

Some other poorly constructed notes

https://mediaprophet.github.io/init-draft-standards-wip/

Some of the work to create rdf versions of the human rights instruments is,

https://github.com/webcivics/ontologies

Noting, that often their worded to speak to the responsibilities of the
state; rather than, the responsibilities we have between one-another, and
by extension also, those whom guardianship relations pertain to...

These tools are then thought helpful to make safe(r) social media
landscapes for everyone, including children.

But, if definitions assume existing web 2.0 platforms, then some potential
solutions are unlikely to work - perhaps until there's strong alternatives
/ competition.

My view has historically been that there's some stuff that's in the IETF
wheelhouse, some in the W3C wheelhouse and perhaps we need a new SDO effort
for ontological design work (feminine led?) in particular., which then also
means educating about ontology & building bridges across the liberal arts..

As were aspects of consideration relating to "human centric internet", et.al
.

I'll hopefully have more time over the next week or so to put into efforts
to help you (plan to be living in a tent, so we will have to see), but
importantly, I think there's some non-trivial complexities that deserve
time, etc.  as to better support the outcomes desired whilst also seeking
to mitigate unintended consequences.

Hard work.


> Thank you,
>

Best wishes
🙏🕊️

Tim.

> >
> > On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 at 09:14, Mallory Knodel <[e-mail]
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi,
> >
> >     History of the draft started with “attacker you know” to be a boss,
> >     a parent, etc etc and we intentionally narrowed it so that we could
> >     have some specificity with respect to threat model. This as an
> >     attempt to move beyond the well understood on-path attack model
> >     present in most other WG/RH docs.
> >
> >     We do have the opportunity to start other and very much related work
> >     as you suggest, Tim.
> >
> >     -Mallory
> >
> >     On Mon, Nov 3, 2025 at 17:06 Tony Rutkowski
> >     <[e-mail]
> >     <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >         While well directed, it is not clear how these mitigations are
> >         related
> >         in any special way to "Internet protocols" - whatever those
> >         are.  The
> >         needs are pervasive across contemporary ICT technologies.
> >
> >         You might be aware that a number of industry, government and
> >         academic
> >         parties published TR 103 936, "Cyber Security
> (CYBER); Implementing
> >         Design practices to mitigate consumer IoT-enabled coercive
> >         control" last
> >         year (which is not cited in the ID).  See
> >         https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
> >
>  u=https-3A__www.etsi.org_deliver_etsi-5Ftr_103900-5F103999_103936_01.01.01-5F60_tr-5F103936v010101p.pdf&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=DaJsm8PvLNbEOT85x9otD_bDvTB29BdzgSce2pSU1f8&e=
> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.etsi.org_deliver_etsi-5Ftr_103900-5F103999_103936_01.01.01-5F60_tr-5F103936v010101p.pdf&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=DaJsm8PvLNbEOT85x9otD_bDvTB29BdzgSce2pSU1f8&e=
> >
> >
> >
> >         Further, an aggregation of the same parties are updating the
> >         provisions.  See attached which in the process of being
> >         approved. All
> >         hrpc participants are welcome to participate.
> >
> >         --tony r
> >
> >
> >         On 11/3/2025 4:23 PM, Sofia Celi wrote:
> >          > Hi, all,
> >          >
> >          > As just noted: we have the new draft version. Please, do send
> >          > feedback. An open item we had is whether we should add an
> ML/AI
> >          > considerations section to it.
> >          >
> >          > Thank you,
> >          >
> >          > On 03/11/2025 21:21, [e-mail]
> >         <mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
> >          >> Internet-Draft draft-irtf-hrpc-ipvc-02.txt is now available.
> >         It is a
> >          >> work item
> >          >> of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) RG of the
> >         IRTF.
> >          >>
> >          >>     Title:   Intimate Partner Violence Digital Considerations
> >          >>     Authors: Sofia Celi
> >          >>              Juliana Guerra
> >          >>              Mallory Knodel
> >          >>     Name:    draft-irtf-hrpc-ipvc-02.txt
> >          >>     Pages:   18
> >          >>     Dates:   2025-11-03
> >          >>
> >          >> Abstract:
> >          >>
> >          >>     This document aims to inform how Internet protocols and
> >         their
> >          >>     implementations might better mitigate technical attacks
> >         at the user
> >          >>     endpoint by describing technology-based practices to
> >         perpetrate
> >          >>     intimate partner violence (IPV).  IPV is a pervasive
> >         reality that is
> >          >>     not limited to, but can be exacerbated with, the usage of
> >          >> technology.
> >          >>     The IPV context enables the attacker to access one, some
> >         or all of:
> >          >>     devices, local networks, authentication mechanisms,
> identity
> >          >>     information, and accounts.  These security compromises
> >         go beyond
> >          >>     active and passive on-path attacks [RFC7624].  With a
> >         focus on
> >          >>     protocols, the document describes tactics of the IPV
> >         attacker and
> >          >>     potential counter-measures.
> >          >>
> >          >> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
> >          >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
> >
>  u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc_&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=qZgfKeIdJOG_YBz8OGNaI3oq7tx5Nstfl6oBO4bnraM&e=
> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc_&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=qZgfKeIdJOG_YBz8OGNaI3oq7tx5Nstfl6oBO4bnraM&e=
> >
> >          >>
> >          >> There is also an HTML version available at:
> >          >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
> >
>  u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_archive_id_draft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc-2D02.html&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=70iWdS1H_jdkESagSBRwQMrUOQKpfAT5jtdsdsecwu0&e=
> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_archive_id_draft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc-2D02.html&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=70iWdS1H_jdkESagSBRwQMrUOQKpfAT5jtdsdsecwu0&e=
> >
> >          >>
> >          >> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> >          >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
> >
>  u=https-3A__author-2Dtools.ietf.org_iddiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc-2D02&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=6BqETLWecAxK1Z7WCXM51j3x_mncYUfB-YDPbll2N2g&e=
> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__author-2Dtools.ietf.org_iddiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dirtf-2Dhrpc-2Dipvc-2D02&d=DwIDaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=krANNudPSfUTEf2kXiduBUqRjXhDsKNCASr1kibHLfs&m=NKPwoKXUWbOeq0XFJFoZo0-nDErU3WJXw_LjGoLOpFvjaVJPtbI6w-dL29RUGPaW&s=6BqETLWecAxK1Z7WCXM51j3x_mncYUfB-YDPbll2N2g&e=
> >
> >          >>
> >          >> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
> >          >> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
> >          >>
> >          >>
> >          >> _______________________________________________
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> --
> Sofía Celi
> @claucece
> Cryptographic research and implementation at Brave and University of
> Bristol. 🏳️‍🌈
> Reach me out at: [e-mail]
> Website: https://sofiaceli.com/
>
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