Re: Framing and control-frame continuations
"Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com> Wed, 06 February 2013 23:29 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE8421F8536 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:29:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -10.162
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.162 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.437, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fh4XRhZysWuW for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:29:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D33C21F8528 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:29:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1U3EOj-0003Gg-E1 for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 23:27:25 +0000
Resent-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 23:27:25 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1U3EOj-0003Gg-E1@frink.w3.org>
Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <adrien@qbik.com>) id 1U3EOd-0003Fx-QD for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 23:27:19 +0000
Received: from smtp.qbik.com ([210.55.214.35]) by lisa.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <adrien@qbik.com>) id 1U3EOc-0005rX-Fa for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 23:27:19 +0000
Received: From [192.168.0.10] (unverified [192.168.0.10]) by SMTP Server [192.168.0.1] (WinGate SMTP Receiver v7.5.0 (Build 3484)) with SMTP id <0019496894@smtp.qbik.com>; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:28:47 +1300
From: "Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 23:26:24 +0000
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="utf-8"
In-Reply-To: <CABP7RbfV5_Y-TD+5PGd+AgWi7oXqUXd9aeS8ogoug8yW_j8LxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-Id: <em347fe61d-6402-4dc7-bde0-244a0f0af9d2@bombed>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: "Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>
User-Agent: eM_Client/5.0.17263.0
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=210.55.214.35; envelope-from=adrien@qbik.com; helo=smtp.qbik.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.4
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-3.367, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: lisa.w3.org 1U3EOc-0005rX-Fa 90434a8c1c437d7c3908cad379c4fa04
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Framing and control-frame continuations
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/em347fe61d-6402-4dc7-bde0-244a0f0af9d2@bombed>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/16429
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>
I think the issue in the end is how do we answer this question: Will 64k max frame size be enough / appropriate in 20 years time. It's extremely difficult to fathom where we may be or what a computer or network looks like in that time frame. 64k seems too small. 4GB looks to have issues with interleaving and HOL blocking. I can see some simple server authors thinking "cool I can send this 4GB file in one frame". Which may be cool or not depending on what else is going on (e.g. may choke a down-stream proxy trying to interleave multiple responses - although I guess it could just repackage it). I'm not really a fan of using 24 bits, but it would save 1B/frame. In the end, we could do something like. 1. make it 32 bits 2. place minimum size limits on size of a control frame that must be accepted (e.g. something much smaller). So implementations can only rely on that size being accepted for a control frame. 3. put stern words in about blocking and concurrency when it comes to choosing a frame size when sending data. in the end, TCP has to do a bunch of work underneath to get this over 1460 bytes of payload anyway. Until the basic ethernet frame size grows, and is reliable across the internet (I'm thinking this will be a very long time away) we're going to be constrained by TCP window, and ack latency anyway. Adrien ------ Original Message ------ From: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> To: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net> Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>; "HTTP Working Group" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> Sent: 7/02/2013 11:46:28 a.m. Subject: Re: Framing and control-frame continuations >On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: >[snip] >> >> Numbers, please, not handwaving. >> > >+1 ... many times over. > >- James >
- Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Mark Nottingham
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Martin Thomson
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roland Zink
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roland Zink
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Brian Pane
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roland Zink
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Brian Pane
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Mark Nottingham
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Mark Nottingham
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Patrick McManus
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations William Chan (ιζΊζ)
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Patrick McManus
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Patrick McManus
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Eliot Lear
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Martin Thomson
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations David Morris
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations James M Snell
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Amos Jeffries
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Martin Nilsson
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: Framing and control-frame continuations Roberto Peon