IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Alt-SvcB

David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org> Tue, 01 November 2022 15:32 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8BDC1522CA for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Nov 2022 08:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.63
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.63 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.571, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=chromium.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLU6JkICPPMD for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Nov 2022 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FD51C14CE3F for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 1 Nov 2022 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1optD9-006EsU-KF for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 15:29:55 +0000
Resent-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2022 15:29:55 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1optD9-006EsU-KF@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from titan.w3.org ([128.30.52.76]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <davidben@google.com>) id 1optD8-006Erc-6Y for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 15:29:54 +0000
Received: from mail-yw1-x112b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b]) by titan.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <davidben@google.com>) id 1optD7-004trn-1U for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 15:29:53 +0000
Received: by mail-yw1-x112b.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-333a4a5d495so139382307b3.10 for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 08:29:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YzlixYbBk1Psd1SEc+W1/5agS+FbfqHmAulGUlGtumM=; b=OSd8w5UVa7myLExKmcmWgyixJxHB44B7Ytp4NWkmcgECUGuQkv66hc3sSGV+qByJGo pA0QgZHqhEpaUMSKei6JnY4ryoTnTYgB3BvQBL/UwiUQOVjIbyS6ZSjC3vp5UUGqq0/n H0B5/F9KGu4WE91+aBP592r176hxBSD4Xyans=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YzlixYbBk1Psd1SEc+W1/5agS+FbfqHmAulGUlGtumM=; b=hFAE1NM247LN4QXI6qpWE8g+XWk/ESlWimQD584AddedzrbSLPROU2SF1cG3p5aZ1u SkEurcODtJspbZjcJoG/Yp9rOBY5if/iDjXCVeio1DzaPEmoDCcF2pxvEboJvz7zcqsK tyO44wxooPoAE45FrIWtmxj257B9Z+pH7m3Vhy1oFGwSw9ygcJxtnntXRzAlkZspuoKH WsaL3OBzS6u/CZX0HHr2yVfDqiF7HdfiwRp5ptXtohaXapBwDSZuFfoDx8Ms1CJVk919 Cw8uTa4hXwDTmkhrHka1Tpy1wU35I29w5AVJS6gudEDGCeQeKDfztHfXdYucbi1IzUno fLrg==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0KTtbCDfcX/nTKBJeZzrLV2HdlHbZfamMUC+k8rcMticn9hZCQ KrALui84QXSvLmthJG1TMqWKCslwF/jAnNpa+AFZFKuDtA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM46r4Q25qKoMABqeTz/1DdYv+isbRyyBFYJz8GiVOI7/NKbRyxi4u3Q6oqx1oCLsr777iT995cmGGUYb6lqzNc=
X-Received: by 2002:a81:5253:0:b0:36f:cd8d:feca with SMTP id g80-20020a815253000000b0036fcd8dfecamr18157249ywb.192.1667316581035; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <bfc198a9-25da-4a96-aca9-5e4451c19105@betaapp.fastmail.com> <CAPDSy+5d7h63_bpBQBMJMbXA0O6rNe7HdstePW3ggF6zmSBnrA@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gNNxCaaG65Cfg9VqS9nwH-gWm3sA42hYfYYvxdgQqoxOg@mail.gmail.com> <0BE7FC0E-D294-453B-A9EB-01825447168F@apple.com> <CALGR9oafkfoSD7HUXyqaZMeXu-XqTt4eJ6EhHdVb_t_v4wiWNg@mail.gmail.com> <CAPDSy+7Hton7YWOffcczsCNbJ1EiJ_Pcm0mPygtEa6qLZ151+Q@mail.gmail.com> <5ADFA978-E239-4176-8138-D317DD72EBCA@apple.com> <CAPDSy+4tCA71XwS0GPvSkwD3zyJU79Es0JUGLbuYV8MfE7_WQg@mail.gmail.com> <a3a4527a-d401-478b-b44b-9de221cc1502@betaapp.fastmail.com> <CAPDSy+6JXEMcQOXFROpn8vwE0nkh5d7rp29FBj4eDd7PRujuJg@mail.gmail.com> <c2f5fac2-9493-481f-9c2a-a07fb4cb3c86@betaapp.fastmail.com> <CY8PR00MB1546AB9A6D17AB66B5D11698FA309@CY8PR00MB1546.namprd00.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <CY8PR00MB1546AB9A6D17AB66B5D11698FA309@CY8PR00MB1546.namprd00.prod.outlook.com>
From: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2022 11:29:24 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF8qwaCnCDyryKrM-4swECpoyAg89bFKK95HeNC9LSqrYPE_UA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tommy Jensen <Jensen.Thomas@microsoft.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ab9df05ec6a6478"
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b; envelope-from=davidben@google.com; helo=mail-yw1-x112b.google.com
X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=davidben@google.com domain=chromium.org), signature is good
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.3
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.051, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: titan.w3.org 1optD7-004trn-1U d639d37f5f761a18fe8da17d66de04ee
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Alt-SvcB
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/CAF8qwaCnCDyryKrM-4swECpoyAg89bFKK95HeNC9LSqrYPE_UA@mail.gmail.com>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/40515
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

If we're looking to make a separate system here, with Alt-Svc still
existing for a while, should we make a separate draft to patch up some of
the more glaring mistakes in Alt-Svc? Or perhaps a paragraph in this one.
I'm specifically thinking about how Alt-Svc tries to circumvent the
TLS-level ALPN negotiation. For HTTPS/SVCB, we picked a more nuanced
interpretation. Otherwise implementers may not know that Alt-Svc
misunderstood ALPN and that they need to ignore the spec on this point.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:04 PM Tommy Jensen <Jensen.Thomas@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I agree with the point of "deprecation" meaning "please use Alt-SvcB for
> future alt-svc uses" and not "immediately stop using its predecessors"
> however that needs to be appropriately phrased.
>
> > Can somebody quantify the relative proportion of clients that can't do
> HTTPS RR?
>
> Windows supports SVCB but not HTTPS at the moment, but that will change in
> a future release. Browsers of course tend to support far older OS versions
> than we prefer to backport changes to, which will not be a unique situation
> among OS platforms. This just lends to the statement about what
> "deprecation" means.
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
>

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email