Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp
Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> Thu, 07 March 2024 17:19 UTC
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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2024 17:18:20 +0000
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To: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@meta.com>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
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Subject: Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp
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Hey, On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, 17:00 Ben Schwartz, <bemasc@meta.com> wrote: > I don't think it makes sense to add a dependency on the Capsule Protocol > here, given the significant additional complexity and (at present) zero > added value. If the Capsule Protocol becomes relevant, future > implementations can negotiate it via the Capsule-Protocol header field. > > As an example of the complexity, note that all uses of the Capsule > Protocol to date are "atomic": each capsule is expected to be buffered and > processed as a whole. In this thread we've heard proposals to introduce > new capsule types that the recipient must process in "streaming" fashion. > This mix of atomic and streaming capsules is a new wrinkle in the Capsule > Protocol. > FWIW the capsule protocol spec highlights this and normatively recommends streaming https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9297#section-3.2-12. Whether implementations do or don't is an implementation matter. Intermediaries that don't processes datagrams would not benefit from buffering them. That might have influenced capsule implementations, a survey would be useful. H2 and H3 implementations already have to deal with streaming of frames. I dont think streaming capsules would add much complexity for them. I do agree a capsule based connect-tcp could be added as a separate extension mode. I don't have much strong opinion on whether we do it that way, or by default. Cheers Lucas > Regarding multiple IPs: adding this capability later is difficult because > we do not have a well-defined extension mechanism (unless we are willing to > derive capabilities from the template's variable names). The extensibility > problem also applies when considering retrofitting this capability to > Connect-UDP (in addition to some other problems specific to UDP). > > --Ben > ------------------------------ > *From:* Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 6, 2024 6:32 PM > *To:* David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> > *Cc:* Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>; Ben Schwartz <bemasc@meta.com>; > HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024, 23: 15 David Schinazi, <dschinazi. ietf@ gmail. com> > wrote: First, to respond to Tommy's chair comment about WGLC: I absolutely > agree this needs more review. Additionally, I think we should wait for > implementation > > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024, 23:15 David Schinazi, <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> > wrote: > > First, to respond to Tommy's chair comment about WGLC: I absolutely agree > this needs more review. Additionally, I think we should wait for > implementation experience before sending it to the IESG. > > Now, to respond to Tommy's technical points as individual: > > When we originally developed the capsule protocol, I was worried about the > consequences of taking over the data stream. Luckily, there's a > straightforward solution: we define a DATA capsule - the semantics of all > DATA capsules is that they are concatenated to create the DATA stream. That > would allow us to have message content ("body") with methods that rely on > the capsule protocol. > > I hadn't really thought about it in the context of connect-tcp, but I like > that idea. We could say that connect-tcp always uses the capsule protocol, > and then uses DATA capsules to encode the CONNECT/TCP bytestream. It's a > little bit more code on the receiver, and pretty much none on the sender > (just send a DATA capsule with length=2^61). > > > I think what you're saying is DATA capsules could be used to provide > agility in whether implementations interleave Capsules or not. > > A common concern I hear is that any level of framing risks losing an > ability to "splice" the post-CONNECT data stream onto a consumer. That > reduces performance compared to classic CONNECT. I think using a large DATA > capsule adds trivial overhead before deciding if a splice is OK or not - > implementations already have to read HEADERS before switching to that mode. > > The nice property of allowing other capsules before switching into a large > DATA, is that it could allow for custom capsule types to exchange metadata > that doesn't fit well in CONNECT-associated headers. For instance, some > binary blob that is larger than typical header size limits on the Internet. > > Cheers > Lucas >
- WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Ben Schwartz
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Ben Schwartz
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Ben Schwartz
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Ben Schwartz
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp Ben Schwartz
- Re: WGLC for draft-ietf-httpbis-connect-tcp David Schinazi