Re: [TLS] Application-Layer Protocol Settings

Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com> Tue, 07 July 2020 09:09 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CADB3A0812 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.65
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DoAkC8ulvfNa for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52FF3A07A1 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1jsjZD-0007bl-2f for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 09:07:07 +0000
Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 09:07:07 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1jsjZD-0007bl-2f@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from mimas.w3.org ([128.30.52.79]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>) id 1jsjZB-0007au-1y for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 09:07:05 +0000
Received: from welho-filter3b.welho.com ([83.102.41.29] helo=welho-filter3.welho.com) by mimas.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>) id 1jsjZ9-0002vi-AE for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 09:07:04 +0000
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by welho-filter3.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340CA16831; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:06:50 +0300 (EEST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at pp.htv.fi
Received: from welho-smtp1.welho.com ([IPv6:::ffff:83.102.41.84]) by localhost (welho-filter3.welho.com [::ffff:83.102.41.25]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sn67VxHMyBJe; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:06:50 +0300 (EEST)
Received: from LK-Perkele-VII (84-253-234-84.bb.dnainternet.fi [84.253.234.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by welho-smtp1.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9C98286; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:06:46 +0300 (EEST)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:06:46 +0300
From: Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Cc: "tls@ietf.org" <TLS@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20200707090646.GA153416@LK-Perkele-VII>
References: <CAAZdMaf2dKab0dJU8MLZc9JzEcVSvf8s9kgeZFo3tmsRtx2sNQ@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CAAZdMaf2dKab0dJU8MLZc9JzEcVSvf8s9kgeZFo3tmsRtx2sNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Sender: ilariliusvaara@welho.com
Received-SPF: none client-ip=83.102.41.29; envelope-from=ilariliusvaara@welho.com; helo=welho-filter3.welho.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.275, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: mimas.w3.org 1jsjZ9-0002vi-AE d11ce4d6d715c5fdc98ada9f9ce53a85
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Application-Layer Protocol Settings
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/20200707090646.GA153416@LK-Perkele-VII>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/37848
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 03:12:45PM -0400, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> Hello TLS and HTTP working groups,
> 
> (QUIC WG bcc'd as this has been discussed there before)
> 
> Currently, we use SETTINGS frames as an extensibility mechanism in HTTP/2
> and HTTP/3.  The SETTINGS frame is sent at the very beginning of TLS
> application data; this approach, while simple, has some drawbacks.  The
> most notable one is that when SETTINGS are used to negotiate extensions,
> there is an entire round-trip where the client can send requests, but
> doesn't know yet about any server extensions, thus making any
> extension-dependant requests take an extra RTT.
> 
> The proposed solution to this problem is to move HTTP SETTINGS frame into
> the TLS handshake.  Here are some issues where this has been discussed
> before:

I note at least two people have proposed just fixing TLS stacks to allow
sending HTTP/2 SETTINGS in 0.5-RTT data. I used to have a server that
actually did that (only if there was no CertificateRequest, due to
interface limitations, this was not TLS library limitation).

Unfortunately, this is not quite interoperable. There are HTTP/2
clients out there that just puke (with unexpected_message TLS alert,
sent post-Finished) if one tries to send SETTINGS in 0.5-RTT data.

I do not know what clients are involved (IIRC, I have heard about
problems with at least Firefox and Chrome, versions unknown), but I
would presume some sort of MITM by some client software is involved.

That was quite painful to debug. Much nastier than e.g., debugging
handshakes failing with illegal_parameter due to downnegotiation gone
wrong due to server bug (this client is still using TLS 1.3 draft 23,
and is still out there).


-Ilari