Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over TLS world
"Adrien de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com> Wed, 15 February 2017 21:15 UTC
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From: Adrien de Croy <adrien@qbik.com>
To: Mike Bishop <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com>, Ryan Hamilton <rch@google.com>, "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:11:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over TLS world
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attached is what I get when I block https to youtube without MitM I'm sorry but even a dialog box that said "proxy denied connection", and even just printed the status line would be more useful than this: "The webpage at https://www.youtube.com/ might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address" this is PURE FICTION. It serves only to confuse users, and cause them to look in the wrong places for the problem. A savvy user may see the "ERR_TUNNEL_CONNECTION_FAILED" and realise it's something to do with a proxy. but the connection didn't fail, it was refused. This is just a source of pain for all users. There's no excuse to be lying to browser users like this. Adrien ------ Original Message ------ From: "Mike Bishop" <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com> To: "Adrien de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>; "Ryan Hamilton" <rch@google.com>; "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> Sent: 16/02/2017 9:52:14 AM Subject: RE: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over TLS world >No, CONNECT is HTTP, full stop. The use of that method is defined for >HTTP/1.1, HTTP/2, and even HTTP/QUIC. You can speak HTTP/2 to a proxy >if you want – you get a multiplexed connection to the proxy, and what >the proxy uses on the back-end is opaque to you. > > > >I’m somewhat sympathetic to the complaint that we’ve doubled down on >two-party communication when there are legitimate use cases for having >a third party with some level of access to the traffic. The problem is >that these use cases run the gamut as to how much access they need, and >they’re equally applicable to illegitimate cases. (Or rather, cases >*I* perceive as illegitimate, since that’s a policy judgement and not a >technical one.) > > > >Groups such as IEEE’s Encrypted Traffic Inspection working group are >trying to build something like this, but they make me nervous. You >can’t build a mechanism into a protocol that restricts it to virtuous >uses – see RFC3751 for a good example here. The best that can be >achieved is to surface to the user an authenticated identity of who’s >spying on their traffic – but we all know the outcome of user dialogs >asking “would you like to agree to some technical gobbledygook, or >would you like to not see your dancing kittens?” > > > >From: Adrien de Croy [mailto:adrien@qbik.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:40 PM >To: Ryan Hamilton <rch@google.com>; ietf-http-wg@w3.org >Subject: Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over TLS >world > > > > > > > >------ Original Message ------ > >From: "Ryan Hamilton" <rch@google.com> > >To: "Adrien de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com> > >Sent: 16/02/2017 9:26:37 AM > >Subject: Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over TLS >world > > > >>I'm not sure what a "Trusted proxy" means in this context. If the >>proxy can mint certificates that are trusted by the browser, then the >>proxy can terminate TLS connections at the proxy and impersonate the >>origin. This is a supported use-case in Chrome (and other browsers). >> >minting certs is a MitM function. I wasn't referring to that. > > > >But if the proxy can mint certs that are trusted by the browser, the >question is how is that. The proxy would need to be using a signing >cert that is trusted by the browser, and how did it get installed in >the browser? > > > >In any case as per my original post, MitM is getting squeezed out by >HSTS, PKP etc. Instead of promoting an arms-race between client >vendors and proxy vendors (e.g. our current next step is to attack HSTS >and PKP to enable us to continue to display block pages that don't >cause our customers headaches) how about we work together to allow >decent secure blocking of requests? > > > >Blocking is a completely legitimate need in corporate networks and >others. > > > >Currently the balance of power has swung to the user, whether that's a >child surfing where he/she shouldn't or whoever. > > > >Blocking has become less precise, and the way it's going will have to >be done at the IP or TCP level. The lower the level you block at, the >worse the user experience, and the more time wasted in organisations >chasing phantoms mis-reported by browsers. > > > >Does h2 even support a proxy? CONNECT is HTTP/1 > > > >Adrien > > > > >> >> >> >> >>On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Adrien de Croy <adrien@qbik.com> >>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>how did they trust the proxy? >>> >>> >>> >>>I'm suggesting trusted proxy, which means the proxy would need to use >>>a cert trusted by the client. >>> >>> >>> >>>I'd go further and say we need to do better than proxy auto-detect as >>>well - it needs to be secured. >>> >>> >>> >>>Adrien >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>------ Original Message ------ >>> >>>From: "Ryan Hamilton" <rch@google.com> >>> >>>To: "Adrien de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com> >>> >>>Sent: 16/02/2017 9:22:06 AM >>> >>>Subject: Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 over >>>TLS world >>> >>> >>> >>>>On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Adrien de Croy <adrien@qbik.com> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>We already support this with WinGate and I've verified it with >>>>>Chrome and Firefox. In that case couldn't the client trust an >>>>>error response body from CONNECT? >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>We used to do this in Chrome, but removed it because of the >>>>potential for phishing. Here's just on example >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Imagine that at user has their browser configured to do proxy auto >>>>discovery. They walk into a cafe and join a wireless network which >>>>sends their traffic to a malicious proxy. The user types >>>>https://mail.example.com/, and is presented with a CONNECT error >>>>page whose contents look exactly like the actual mail.example.com >>>>login page to which they dutifully type their username and password. >>>> >> >>
- The future of forward proxy servers in an http/2 … Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Dave Dolson
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Patrick McManus
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Patrick McManus
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Ryan Hamilton
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Patrick McManus
- RE: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Mike Bishop
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Tom Bergan
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Tom Bergan
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Roland Zink
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Ryan Hamilton
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Amos Jeffries
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Willy Tarreau
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Tom Bergan
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… nicolas.mailhot
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Francesco Chemolli
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Chris Bentzel
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Willy Tarreau
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Patrick McManus
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Willy Tarreau
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Alex Rousskov
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Roland Zink
- UI | Re: The future of forward proxy servers in a… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Poul-Henning Kamp
- forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forward p… Kari Hurtta
- RE: forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forwa… Mike Bishop
- Re: forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forwa… Alex Rousskov
- Re: forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forwa… Kari Hurtta
- Re: forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forwa… Kari Hurtta
- Re: forward HTTPS proxy | Re: The future of forwa… Kari Hurtta
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Adrien de Croy
- Re: The future of forward proxy servers in an htt… Tom Bergan