IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfill of QUIC for TCP (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt)

Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com> Fri, 16 February 2024 11:53 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=ietf.org@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D573C1519B8 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 03:53:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.856
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.856 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=w3.org header.b="QBXn0vmi"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=w3.org header.b="WtGQurfa"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lucaspardue.com header.b="ZatOEnSq"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="BOhEujg4"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPA8cIm_O67o for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 03:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6119C14F685 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietf.org>; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 03:53:17 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=w3.org; s=s1; h=Subject:Content-Type:Cc:To:From:Date:References:In-Reply-To: Message-Id:MIME-Version:Reply-To; bh=EyLYbUuCWfFLYcWMfP7UaH5wx/7tO2gAvwZQ4jqL2HA=; b=QBXn0vmilqHl3r46vz6qpgfD9/ gC+/B8iEJOc5bTwa5vGCqF7ofGIf9utuq8RfDBlgynOlr6ZxjHzhr2PWWv9yEY5kJlEHp7ltGSTFw /CrDgMHiIwPGBnmwMuWFow8fnYPkrk/7vjgPwyEuUZVhUip/N6rvWEh0xjI95NCIUH4V47kO7Xhm1 2snm/uAx69GV+/pMrwEn/h4ILyhBsrStNc4thiGJngSMsvPWS9tiFw42/Wks9YeKTaPZ1wpnJv0X2 bd7tZutLzPZZId+44KAeIt9UpVHQ/53SDKJnMDDbVrB5C/Hqkpqn7e6azZfcC4g0ATUyiKiFPMxxk UM+9hgEA==;
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1rawm9-00A3Ez-Lv for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:53:05 +0000
Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:53:05 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1rawm9-00A3Ez-Lv@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from www-data by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <lucas@lucaspardue.com>) id 1rawm8-00A3E5-Ci for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:53:04 +0000
Received: from puck.w3.org ([34.196.82.207]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <lucas@lucaspardue.com>) id 1rawgT-00A2hW-Ts for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:47:14 +0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=w3.org; s=s1; h=Content-Type:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:References:In-Reply-To: Message-Id:MIME-Version:Reply-To; bh=EyLYbUuCWfFLYcWMfP7UaH5wx/7tO2gAvwZQ4jqL2HA=; t=1708084033; x=1708948033; b=WtGQurfa8fD0W6vksd3vh5UHM9l2j8dN4eOadMAoQeATBH9D4eHt23+rTlVkRC9+LrqopSoOSOS BednRc0FLmE9FE83++MXjXW19Jx1d/gMMm5uomeVQol0V2yvtyjB9Bjg12a+e6WAr1H3VQvh5M0fY Fj3oYI3Ism73QI1sq5486kILHSON9UbSwHUSioBDt2Fe7KK131sQYUPgdbqlCBPvNTsvZY5ZHiWKO cQsXQEQpn0cHY9C1i3GHbUypGblO71yOQp7aowXxe7tsc2TCEOuiwva7ChIlmx01krzGH8cdAaZTr JM+HEChnjTA6oIg7TDblYp6gLK+4wK793Phw==;
Received-SPF: pass (puck.w3.org: domain of lucaspardue.com designates 103.168.172.152 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.152; envelope-from=lucas@lucaspardue.com; helo=fhigh1-smtp.messagingengine.com;
Received: from fhigh1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([103.168.172.152]) by puck.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from <lucas@lucaspardue.com>) id 1rawgS-000PeO-2T for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:47:13 +0000
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfhigh.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729CF1140109; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 06:47:09 -0500 (EST)
Received: from imap53 ([10.202.2.103]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 16 Feb 2024 06:47:09 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lucaspardue.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1708084029; x= 1708170429; bh=EyLYbUuCWfFLYcWMfP7UaH5wx/7tO2gAvwZQ4jqL2HA=; b=Z atOEnSqIJtX7PdZ6cc9AxWFOOc0Mw2lQ2qqi1clnZ43zgT4dLuNsXS4I26pgOzQ2 KmcD/Or98CIurBila0/Nka79RQh14ps43YJUpTlmvIOwP7XfZhXQP6IIC3WtDD8T dBujLtUYXf4GKsx12Oqw7zmQGdtg80dnWVE8RGX+pl+FL4TkTrF6/KKipV4aIUe6 RurWmSADrueNwUvR7fE61PgeShuJO7QtR4aQYTnM+gw2P57voLxKLByG3ir65Y4c 7FDMlw1bM3ph+b9Xzv1w0zY/yMcD9Fq4+Qha4zyL45Z9fPGKvLaR2q8YmFdRhBC1 iLkEC9fAOgxYOmREhIphA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; t=1708084029; x=1708170429; bh=EyLYbUuCWfFLYcWMfP7UaH5wx/7t O2gAvwZQ4jqL2HA=; b=BOhEujg4+XEU4PHVFvhVyYbcxSF4QlaapOhuH6j2L7K3 +/TOG8QWGmnXCPIHyiq6oKuCj8JXzN1+yYb7LLHDu3rSgYz0yVwGN9pcj2QqUkhp l2iS3wDinwbcvGFvlsxAJOSuBssGd0ak7BFV1qcTeHHiJueRPpjFtH1F0t2DhF52 s1YSsCxJCvqB16994xfwblPxWflU8t02GfV9kp+V0sLoAdmXgiHUn5ANIHq1l6vI XNjtGQw+Mli4qssvGFSgvqPlP1gctDc8auDH2w+nSdNL8+n0NrJ2ls2HR0R+SkNr 4lr2IvypnD7s7CpQZv3YJN9XMds2JS9GIiRdySw4ww==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:PEvPZTRXzajVeUHJ2iqVJvH1hEg8XUcP7Wshvft1LmolUsopCj2QXg> <xme:PEvPZUz1rB_yY1NZzmhRyoI60ZklKcJUwfnmTAXCKYOxuuwlZCo3dBAmR9J-rF0Bu WGOAAX8zDmSz8BCo2o>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvddvgdefvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvvefutgesrgdtreerreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdfnuhgt rghsucfrrghrughuvgdfuceolhhutggrsheslhhutggrshhprghrughuvgdrtghomheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfettdeukeeuuefhudejfffgkeetjedvheefvdefffejtedt jeffvdeukeekffeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomheplhhutggrsheslhhutggrshhprghrughuvgdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:PEvPZY0Rd-K0m1l00V95n4Fo6flAwFGkcNLNd5Yr-bUAUJf1GPNrhg> <xmx:PEvPZTCTVh-ULWqYohMKWuFYo2vDyAxI1uie28rXUGtBFXi1S8hLlw> <xmx:PEvPZciPnaxW5ODQG9nMazhE82_-5VGwAgtBAh-hWgQCaKe8YdB2nA> <xmx:PUvPZVs_bdaFKQAUv3bgCpaLYy0UolBl4odcj63NOFT2kvSH1SMFUQ>
Feedback-ID: i23b94938:Fastmail
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id F0290364006F; Fri, 16 Feb 2024 06:47:07 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <7d9b6816-e0f6-4121-8267-2f5d9ac47ab2@app.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <202402161101.41GB1Etp020238@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <170807134367.25372.9131938145722079298@ietfa.amsl.com> <CANatvzyLJnZH9UHaSoMWbv20VhEtAzY7HqRHCSWt-O65f24uwQ@mail.gmail.com> <202402161101.41GB1Etp020238@critter.freebsd.dk>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:46:45 +0000
From: Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="ed17d69f33a447ccaf32875de1a90447"
X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=lucas@lucaspardue.com domain=lucaspardue.com), signature is good
X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=lucas@lucaspardue.com domain=messagingengine.com), signature is good
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.1
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, DMARC_MISSING=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, W3C_NW=1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: puck.w3.org 1rawgS-000PeO-2T 2d677e17fc298bcc597f2841553da23d
X-caa-id: 58b48eb8fc
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfill of QUIC for TCP (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt)
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/7d9b6816-e0f6-4121-8267-2f5d9ac47ab2@app.fastmail.com>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/51784
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/email/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, at 11:01, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> Kazuho Oku writes:
> 
> > We, Lucas and I, have submitted two drafts aimed at broadening the reach of
> > HTTP/3 - yes, making it available over TCP as well. We are eager to hear
> > your thoughts on these:
> 
> So now we will have:
> 
> websocket
> http/3
> quic
> tls
> tcp
> ip
> ethernet
> …and who knows how many physical layers below that.
> 
> I remember when IETF people ridiculed the OSI protocols for their having seven layers of protocol...

I don't think much has changed to be honest.

An application that would have wanted to use multiple WebSocket flows and paired request/response flows using HTTP/1.1 would have just had to manage multiple connections one level up.

The HTTP/2 equivalent is a single layer that does two things, rather than two layers that do two things as we have with QUIC and HTTP/3.

The use cases and complexity exists no matter where we push it around to.

Cheers
Lucas

> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email