[Iasa20] 99 IETF IASA 2.0 bof - raw notes
"A. Jean Mahoney" <mahoney@nostrum.com> Tue, 18 July 2017 15:30 UTC
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From: "A. Jean Mahoney" <mahoney@nostrum.com>
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Subject: [Iasa20] 99 IETF IASA 2.0 bof - raw notes
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Hi all, My notes are below. Things I missed are marked with ... Thanks! Jean IASA 2.0, IETF 99, Prague Tuesday, July 18, 2017, 15:50-16:50, Grand Hilton Ballroom (1 hour) Chair: Jon Peterson Mailing list: iasa20@ietf.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5m Intro and agenda bash (Chair) Note takers: Joe Hall and Jean Mahoney Jabber scribe: Matt Miller ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 20m draft-haberman-iasa20dt-recs-00 (Design Team) 35m Discussion - Feedback on the set of identified possible paths forward - Any potential missed options - Implications of options being considered Brian Haberman presented. Jordi Martinez: There is a risk of being independent entity that relies on sponsors, may not be good for maintaining independence. I sent my input to the list - I think we should stay under the ISOC umbrella and clarify the relationship. Jon Peterson: The goal here is - Did we get the options right? Let's not pick an option right now. Bob Hinden: The doc should discuss that some of options will have lots of staff that will change how the iETF works a lot. It will become like W3C, which is staff driven. Something to consider. Need to examine. Jon: How would we describe how the IETF may change? Bob: you talk about having the staff making more decisions. And board looking at strategic plans. The decisions are now made by IAOC and larger community. The staff executes what the IAOC says to do. And the options are proposing that staff makes decisions. Brian: What are the tradeoffs between operations and strategic decisions and what does the oversight look like. Ted Hardie: We're providing feedback to the design team and we're still on the first steps. Just wanted to clarify. Jon: Yes. Ted: In a lot of cases these are workable if their training and experience helps them with strategic planning. the IAOC has become more of an executive committee. Maybe that's because of the pool of people we're picking from. Need to look at the recruiting mechanisms for pulling in people who act at this level. If you don't have a clear idea of how select people, you run on hope. Need to come up with a recruitment strategy. The draft needs to cover that. Brian: If I were to paraphrase: You want to input into factors for selecting - like skillset and estimate of this workload. Ted: It's not just what skillset we're looking for, but how would our community recruit that skill set. Leslie: I was involved in the hiring of the first IAD. Having a clear idea of what the job is and where to advertise helps. As an individual, we have to be clear on what problem the individual directions solve. The fiduciary processes for contracts has been awful at times. If you think you need to be independent. Need to stay focused on split of responsibilities and clear on oversight. The retrospective tried to captured issues we faced. It falls on the IETF chair to take it to the community. The chair job gets larger, and the requirements list for the IETF chair gets longer. The only reason to make changes is that community sees issues. Jonne Soininen: It doesn't matter how to organize, it can still act like the IOAC, have to look at how to change the culture, not just the structure. Which of those targets can be done in the current structure, and then change procedures and processes. The Linux Foundation has some projects underneath it that are incorporated and others that are not, they act the same. What is really needed is to change the targets then look at the legal setup. Brian: What I hear you saying echoes what 3 other people are saying on the list. Focus on problem statement and goals first. Jonne: The legal structure might not be a solution. We may want to do it regardless. The target that ... By itself it's not a solution. It's just hope that things will change when the legal structure is changed. I think hope is a strategy. Eric Rescorla: We are in early stages on working on this. Agree that we need the right people. That may bring in people who are not traditional IETFers, are people comfortable with that? Bob was concerned about staff making decisions. I've been in w3c and our way works better. Volunteers may not have time to do everything. What do we not want staff to do? Not the standards themselves. John C Klensin MIC: following up on several recent comments, I think the most frequent difficulty with IASA/IAOC so far has lack of transparency to the community and the appearance of making strategic decisions _for_ the community, rather than focusing on determining and reflecting community consensus. Perhaps others don't care but, if "we" do, we should be concentrating on changes that would fix (or improve on) that problem and then evaluate proposed solutions on the basis of how they would improve or pessimize things. Some of that reinforces Jonnie's comment, of course. Randy Bush: My first reaction - Change?! oh no. We're trying to understand our culture and our shibboleths, like transparency, and technical excellence, and also the ability to run a small business. We're not very good at it. When you bring in employees and money, it changes the game. When you look at the legs we are standing on, the one that has the cultural clue is the secretariat. How we go forward, it's a tough thing to find that intersection. ISOC doesn't get the culture. Tobias: regarding the legal structure and behavior - the structure is decoupled, you can have different cultures with the same structure. It's about the description of the role. and the way you act daily. The structure has tiny influence. If you want changes in how we behave, it needs to be changed in the interfaces. The question of staff and community, John channeled - the concern that the IAOC is taking on too much of the decisions. I'm in favor of delegating to the staff. Need to recognize that we are more hands off. Brian Rosen: My initial reaction was not to change structure - improve we have. Although it doesn't apply in the current circumstance - we can't fire the IAOC. It's not a problem but it could be. The marketing problem and generating more income - needs the right person and not necessarily the organization. I think we may have to deal with that issue directly. Get a real marketing guy that makes lots promises. Engineers are really bad at this. Jon: Do you think we have that kind of confidence. Identifying the right person? Brian: How would we do that? I don't know. Jari Arkko, as individual: Comments on culture being more important than structure. The choice of the tasks they have, is a clarity issue. It's not clear what we're trying to do. Fixing that clarity will help with getting better structures in place. We need to look at the current structure, do we have the people that have the time to do it properly? And board members don't have time to deal with the ops issues. Gonzalo Camarillo, chair ISOC board: I want to restate a comment Kathy made last time - Kathy signs and has responsibility, but she doesn't understand. She thought it was weird that the responsibility fell on her. Talk to her. Clarify that. Ray Pelletier, outgoing IAD: The IETF can hire and fire the IAD. Whatever the oversight structure is, it needs the cultural clue. Things the IAD may not know. The IAD should hire the marketing people. If you are going to build a structure. The IAD is responsible for hire and fire those people. The IAOC should handle ... Brian: Would that ... Ray: IAOC should meet quarterly, not once an month. And take up contract... and not other much. ... Jason Livingood, member of design team: on the funding, based on membership and sponsorship fees - the IETF is not financially sustainable. ISOC shores it up. That money comes from .org. Thinking about revenue streams is important. Jon: we have 15 minutes left, does the set in the document seem correct? I've heard people express preferences. Anything missed. No takers. Can we say that the design team has identified a path forward? Ted: There's a lot of options that we didn't cover - pessimissive - merger for instance. I'm fine with that. If someone thinks that, they should bring the bride or groom to us. This is the right class of options? Yes. I want to be careful with how far this gets us. it s start of a journey not the end of it. Jonne: Yes these are viable ways forward in terms of legal entity, but not a solution to the problems in the target. That work is to be done. There is potential to hit the targets under all of these. None of those three things really impacts this picture. Jon: Some of these options would radically change the structure. Jonne: You would change the name of the IAOC to Executive Board and it will not solve anything. You have to find to solution for those. Jon: Anyone think that, if we made the IAOC more consultive and transparent, would it solve it? (Silence) Leslie: How are you going to implement any of those structures? Start with the problems and how they might be solved with the options. I don't think we can discuss the tradeoffs. Flip vertical and horizontal axis. Jon: ... Jonne: My point was exactly what she said. Lucy Lynch: There's prep work before one of these structures is cleared. There's clarifying work, to know if we even have options there. Jon: anything else? What the properties are and what were trying to drive toward is good for the Design Team to hear.
- [Iasa20] 99 IETF IASA 2.0 bof - raw notes A. Jean Mahoney