Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-icnrg-qosarch-05: (with COMMENT)
"David R. Oran" <daveoran@orandom.net> Thu, 17 September 2020 13:45 UTC
Return-Path: <daveoran@orandom.net>
X-Original-To: icnrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: icnrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D20D3A0B8A; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 06:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wexLFxuY7wS1; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 06:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57BA93A0B56; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 06:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.15.222] ([IPv6:2601:184:407f:80ce:c8b4:33e4:d14f:3f9]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id 08HDjf06007582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 17 Sep 2020 06:45:43 -0700
From: "David R. Oran" <daveoran@orandom.net>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net>, icnrg-chairs@ietf.org, ICNRG <icnrg@irtf.org>, draft-oran-icnrg-qosarch@ietf.org, The IRSG <irsg@irtf.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:45:35 -0400
X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5716)
Message-ID: <341F799D-5963-4C9C-AF82-2271008E012C@orandom.net>
In-Reply-To: <CAKKJt-etmVy-yGCMbrgvn_qOUyRik35j-7QUOhpqTWWnyQ_Ydw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <160030395123.14071.11327967684031927753@ietfa.amsl.com> <37D2C017-218A-430C-A2DA-20A1719F5328@dkutscher.net> <CAKKJt-etmVy-yGCMbrgvn_qOUyRik35j-7QUOhpqTWWnyQ_Ydw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_33F8B53F-C43A-4F3C-A802-C9625D8C4608_="
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Embedded-HTML: [{"plain":[185, 4442], "uuid":"2143EBCA-4DBC-496E-9B86-231C53449259"}]
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/icnrg/9x9ETlCsWiBdD3F-Q66FydL_CwU>
Subject: Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-icnrg-qosarch-05: (with COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: icnrg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Information-Centric Networking research group discussion list <icnrg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/icnrg>, <mailto:icnrg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/icnrg/>
List-Post: <mailto:icnrg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:icnrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg>, <mailto:icnrg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 13:46:02 -0000
Thanks Spencer - adding “only” in that sentence helps a lot. I’ll note it for the next revision before sending to RFCed. On 17 Sep 2020, at 9:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > Hi, Dirk, > > I'm fine with most of these replies. On one of my comments, I wasn't > clear > enough (please see below). > > Best, > > Spencer > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net> > wrote: > >> Thanks a lot for looking into this, Spencer! >> >> I'm not an ICN guy, but I can translate all of the terms on both >> sides of >> Table >> 1, except for "flow balance". The term isn't mentioned anywhere else, >> except >> with a reference to I-D.oran-icnrg-flowbalance, which has a very >> clear >> definition in its abstract. >> >> This captures the idea that there is a one-to-one >> correspondence between requests for data, carried in Interest >> messages, and the responses with the requested data object, carried >> in Data messages. >> >> Would it make sense to include some or all of that definition earlier >> in >> the >> document, or just including a pointer to the discussion draft near >> where >> the >> term first appears? The current pointer to the discussion draft >> happens 14 >> pages into this draft, which doesn't seem helpful if a reader doesn't >> understand the term used on page 3. >> >> Fair comment. It's a well-understood term for ICN folks, but we could >> consider addressing a broader audience here. There is also >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8793/ (Terminology) that mentions >> flow balance in the big-picture-overview -- that could be referenced >> as >> well if a revision was to be done. >> >> This text >> >> Further, accumulated experience seems to indicate that QoS is helpful >> in a fairly narrow range of network conditions: >> >> seems backwards to me, because the list of bullets that follows >> describe >> where >> QoS is NOT helpful: >> >> IMO, this is just trying level expectations and debunk some QoS myths >> that >> might aggravate the understanding of the document. >> >> The draft has additional text with examples after this one: >> >> Nevertheless, though not universally deployed, QoS is advantageous at >> least for some applications and some network environments. >> >> * applications with steep utility functions [Shenker2006], such as >> real-time multimedia >> >> >> - >> >> applications with safety-critical operational constraints, such as >> avionics or industrial automation >> - >> >> dedicated or tightly managed networks whose economics depend on >> strict adherence to challenging service level agreements (SLAs) >> >> I was thinking that this illustrates it quite nicely. Do you think >> that >> more is needed? >> > I agree that the examples are good. What I SHOULD have said in my > comment > was that the leading sentence says "QoS is helpful in a fairly > narrow range" but the examples are for cases where it is not helpful > :-) > > I should have suggested "QoS is only helpful in a fairly narrow range" > - > adding "only". Then the examples make sense - "not helpful in this > case, or > this one, or this one". > > Best, > > Spencer > >> I think this text >> >> This may >> allow less pessimistic rate adjustment schemes than the Additive >> Increase, Multiplicative Decrease (AIMD) with .5 multiplier that >> is used on TCP/IP networks. >> >> is approximately correct today, but TSVWG is certainly trying to >> change >> that >> with ECT(1) experimentation as per >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8311. >> Perhaps >> "that is commonly used on TCP/IP networks"? >> >> Probably nice to have in case a revision is done. >> >> I'm a bit uncomfortable with "likely to incur a mobility event within >> an >> RTT >> (or a few RTTs)", because really short-horizon distributed decisions >> seem >> to be >> problematic in a lot of path aware networking proposals. >> >> * A QoS treatment indicating a mobile consumer likely to incur a >> mobility event within an RTT (or a few RTTs). Such a treatment >> would allow a mobile network operator to preferentially cache the >> data at a forwarder positioned at a _join point_ or _rendezvous >> point_ of their topology. >> >> How badly do you need the text following "likely to incur a mobility >> event"? It >> seems like deleting it would be just as clear and accurate. >> >> So, here I agree that, in a non-ICN context, the original text could >> raise >> some eye brows. However in this context, I don't see a need for >> change, >> because of the different nature of ICNs (conceptually less need for >> path-awareness) and light-weight mobility management approaches that >> ICNs >> enables. >> >> Thanks, >> Dirk >> > _______________________________________________ > icnrg mailing list > icnrg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg DaveO
- [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-icnrg-… Spencer Dawkins via Datatracker
- Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-ic… Dirk Kutscher
- Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-ic… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-ic… David R. Oran
- Re: [icnrg] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-oran-ic… Spencer Dawkins at IETF