[ieee-ietf-coord] On references to IEEE standards in IETF RFCs

["Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[e-mail]>]

Dear all:

The 6TiSCH WG is discussing which reference it should place about the IEEE802.15.4 standard in our upcoming RFCs.

I have been reviewing how the IETF has been proceeding in the past, and found that we have been quite inconsistent:

- RFC 894 has NO reference to Ethernet at all, indicates that the "memo applies to the Ethernet (10-megabit/second, 48-bit addresses)", but does not limit the applicability to other speeds.
Clearly the memo was implicitly extended to any subsequent version of Ethernet.

- RFC 2644 has NO reference to Ethernet either, but just a reference to an EUI-64 tutorial, and that was before a best practice was established to separate normative and informative reference in RFCs.

- RFC 4944 has the following NORMATIVE reference:
               [ieee802.15.4]  IEEE Computer Society, "IEEE Std. 802.15.4-2003", October 2003.
Does it mean that the 6LoWPAN is currently not defined on the 2006 and the 2011 versions of 802.15.4?

- RFC 6282 points on the 2006 version, but as INFORMATIVE:
               [IEEE802.15.4]  IEEE Computer Society, "IEEE Std. 802.15.4-2006", October 2006.
How do I interpret that WRT to the 2011 and the upcoming 2015 version?

- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis is mostly a formatting guide but does not enter such consideration.

- BCP97 and RFC4897 do not discuss documents that are sourced outside the IETF; they are about procedures and warning that a downref exists and when that can be acceptable.

- The general expectation is that work at the IETF that depends on an IEEE standard stays valid when a newer version of that IEEE standard that gets published. This is certainly the case for the RFCs listed above.

- My understanding is that the IEEE expects an RFC to reference the IEEE standard without the year-version (e.g. 802.15.4 as opposed to 802.15.4-2006) when that is the case, so as to implicitly include new upcoming versions.

- ISO/IEC has produced clear rules on how that can be implemented (see Tom's mail attached)

All in all, do we have a best practice for IEEE references? If not, should we write one?

Cheers,

Pascal

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Dear all:

I was contributing a comment on this subject via the chat channel when the Thursday meeting closed. Diego, who was managing the chat channel, captured it and we subsequently have had the attached exchange.

In ISO and IEC standards the practice is to list the generic document within the list of Normative References unless there are explicit references to specific subclauses of the referenced document, in which case a specific edition needs to be called out because subclause numbering often change from one edition to the next.

Thus, if a 6tisch document references subclause m.n.p within the new 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4, the reference would be to IEEE802.15.4:2015, m.n.p. Otherwise the reference WITHIN the standard is simply to IEEE802.15.4, without qualification as to the specific edition. While such an unqualified reference presumes that material on the referenced topic will not disappear from future editions of IEEE802.15.4, such an assumption is almost always valid and leads to much less confusion by those trying to use the standard over its lifetime.

The specific wording to cover both dated and undated references that the latest version of the ISO/IEC editing directives itself uses is:


   The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this document and
   are indispensable for its application. For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For
   undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any
   amendments) applies.


   The related text from the ISO/IEC editing directives with regard to use of Normative References is:


   6.2.2 Normative references

   This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced documents cited (see 6.6.7.5) in
   the document in such a way as to make them indispensable for the application of the
   document. For dated references, each shall be given with its year of publication, or, in the
   case of enquiry or final drafts, with a dash together with a footnote “To be published.”, and full
   title. The year of publication or dash shall not be given for undated references. When an
   undated reference is to all parts of a document, the publication number shall be followed by
   the indication “(all parts)” and the general title of the series of parts (i.e. the introductory and
   main elements, see Annex E).

   In principle, the referenced documents shall be documents published by ISO and/or IEC.
   Documents published by other bodies may be referred to in a normative manner provided that
   a) the referenced document is recognized by the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned as
   having wide acceptance and authoritative status as well as being publicly available,
   b) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned has obtained the agreement of the authors or
   publishers (where known) of the referenced document to its inclusion and to its being
   made available as required — the authors or publishers will be expected to make
   available such documents on request,
   c) the authors or publishers (where known) have also agreed to inform the ISO and/or IEC
   committee concerned of their intention to revise the referenced document and of the
   points the revision will concern, and
   d) the ISO and/or IEC committee concerned undertakes to review the situation in the light of
   any changes in the referenced document.

   The list shall be introduced by the following wording:
   “The following documents, in whole or in part, are normatively referenced in this
   document and are indispensable for its application. For dated references, only the edition
   cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document
   (including any amendments) applies.”

   The above wording is also applicable to a part of a multipart document.

   The list shall not include the following:
   • referenced documents which are not publicly available;
   • referenced documents which are only cited in an informative manner;
   • referenced documents which have merely served as bibliographic or background material
   in the preparation of the document.

   Such referenced documents may be listed in a bibliography (see 6.4.2).



   An example from the same ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2 document demonstrates proper dated-citation usage, including usage of the date only as necessary to reduce ambiguity:


   D.1.1 Scope of rules and examples provided in Annex D

   Annex D provides a synthesis of the rules and examples given in ISO 10241-1:2011, and is
   intended to cover those rules applicable to the forms of terms and definitions most commonly
   present in ISO and IEC standards. For the complete set of rules and examples, refer to
   ISO 10241-1.




   It seems likely that actual references to the 2015 edition of IEEE802.15.4 will, in fact, need to cite specific subclauses. If that is the case, then this entire discussion of whether or not to cite the edition is moot, because such citations are essential to ensure that any specific sublclause references actually point to relevant text.

   -Tom

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Tom,

       I think what you say is completely relevant to

discuss on 6tisch so as to keep the references correct

and coherent among the documents.

      I encourage you to send these comments to the

ML, or, if you wish, I can do it for you (referencing you

as the author, of course).

     I hope to see you on the next 6tisch webex call, which

should be announced soon.

     Tell me what you think about this.

     Thank you.

     Regards,


                            Diego Dujovne




2015-03-26 13:59 GMT-03:00 Tom Phinney <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>:


   I saw that the meeting was concluding just as I finished typing. My comment was about the general nature of references. I agree with Pat Kinney that references need to be to the current edition, which requires updates to specs that cite subclause numbers. That's why it's best not to cite such numbers. The standard text at the start of Clause 2, the Normative Reference clause, in IEC and ISO standards is


      The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document. For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any amendments) applies.

   Thus most references can be to the current edition, whatever that is, meaning that the normative reference lists the document but not the edition or publication date. However, when it is necessary to cite within the specification specific subclause numbers of another document, which can change from one edition to another of that second document, then the edition listed in the normative references section must be dated.


   As to whether I can participate in the next 6tisch interim meeting, that, as always, depends on the date and time of the meeting. I participated on Monday and early this morning because it fit my schedule. However, I should have left for a class after the first hour. Instead I stayed on the connection until there was an unintended loss of connection, then reconnected to hear the end of the session.
   ===

   On 2015.03.26 09:41, Prof. Diego Dujovne wrote:


      Tom,

             Your last comment could not be included.

      Would you be able to participate on the next 6tisch

      interim meeting and reproduce that comment please?

      "Tom Phinney: An unqualified reference to a standard implies the edition listed in the normative references, which needs to specify either issue date (year) or edition. Any subclause references should be to that edition."


      Thank you!

      Regards,


                             Diego Dujovne


      --

      DIEGO DUJOVNE
      Académico Escuela de Ingeniería en Informática y Telecomunicaciones
      Facultad de Ingeniería UDP
      www.ingenieria.udp.cl<http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl>
      (56 2) 676 8125






      --

      DIEGO DUJOVNE
      Académico Escuela de Ingeniería en Informática y Telecomunicaciones
      Facultad de Ingeniería UDP
      www.ingenieria.udp.cl<http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl>
      (56 2) 676 8125

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