Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering
Scott Kitterman <sklist@kitterman.com> Mon, 28 November 2022 07:30 UTC
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Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 07:30:37 +0000
From: Scott Kitterman <sklist@kitterman.com>
To: ietf-dkim@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering
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On November 28, 2022 7:22:33 AM UTC, Wei Chuang <weihaw=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 9:34 PM Scott Kitterman <sklist@kitterman.com> >wrote: > >> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 9:30:49 PM EST Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> > Hi folks, >> > >> > Area Director hat on here: >> > >> > The discussion Barry kicked off has been interesting, but it has strayed >> > (and mea culpa, in part, because the material is interesting) from the >> work >> > of discussing a charter. >> > >> > I've set the stage for re-chartering in the system, and now we need some >> > charter text. Dave and Barry submitted text, which I've synthesized into >> > what's below. Let's keep this thread just to discussion the charter >> text; >> > if you want to continue to debate the technical solutions or problem >> space, >> > please start other threads or reply to the other existing ones. >> > >> > Here's my run at a charter; please provide suggestions or comments, or >> tell >> > us if you think it's ready to go. It's a variant of Barry's version with >> > parts of Dave's merged in. I've kept the list of candidate documents as >> a >> > starting point; the WG doesn't actually have to use any of them if that's >> > where consensus lands. >> > >> > But let's figure out consensus on a charter before we try to hammer out >> > consensus on solutions. >> > >> > -MSK >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Domain Keys Identified Mail (DKIM, RFC 6376) defines a mechanism for >> > using a digital signature to associate a domain identity with an email >> > message in a secure way, and to assure receiving domains that the message >> > has >> > not been altered since the signature was created. Receiving systems >> > can use this information as part of their message-handling decision. >> > This can help reduce spam, phishing, and other unwanted or malicious >> > email. >> > >> > A DKIM-signed message can be re-posted, to a different set of recipients, >> > without >> > disturbing the signature's validity. This can be used to confound the >> > engines that >> > identify abusive content. RFC 6376 identified a risk of these "replay" >> > attacks, but >> > at the time did not consider this to be a problem in need of a solution. >> > Recently, >> > the community has decided that it has become enough of a problem to >> warrant >> > being revisited. >> > >> > The DKIM working group will produce one or more technical specifications >> > that >> > describe the abuse and propose replay-resistant mechanisms that are >> > compatible >> > with DKIM's broad deployment. The working group may produce documents >> > describing >> > relevant experimental trials first. >> > >> > Current proposals include the following drafts: >> > >> > - draft-bradshaw-envelope-validation-extension-dkim >> > - draft-chuang-replay-resistant-arc >> > - draft-gondwana-email-mailpath >> > - draft-kucherawy-dkim-anti-replay >> > >> > The working group may adopt or ignore these as it sees fit. >> >> I would add mention of the problem statement draft. I think it may turn >> out >> to be the most important of the ones we have now. > > >+1 (granted my partiality). Hopefully it can provide helpful context and >framing device. > > >> I still think "compatible with DKIM's broad deployment" is too narrow. >> Also, >> I think it's one reasonable conclusion the group might reach is that the >> cure >> is worse than the disease and a resolution along the lines of "remove >> signatures during delivery" and "be more careful about what you sign >> because >> signing bad things will hurt your domain's reputation" may be the most >> appropriate approach. > > >> How about instead of "The DKIM working group will produce one or more >> technical specifications that describe the abuse and propose >> replay-resistant >> mechanisms that are compatible with DKIM's broad deployment" we say "The >> DKIM >> working group will evaluate potential mechanisms to mitigate this attack >> and >> produce one or more technical specifications that describe the abuse and >> propose improvements which, consistent with compatibility with DKIM's >> broad >> deployment and general email protocols, will reduce the impact of replay >> attacks". >> >> >On this I'm more with the MSK version, that we ought to create a >specification. To me at least, the problem with DKIM replay is that it is >indistinguishable to a receiver from other benign forwarding flows. I >believe the proposed drafts help us do this though different approaches. My proposal doesn't preclude that. I'm not convinced that the problem is reasonably solvable and a new specification may not be appropriate. Let's not assume we know more than we do at this point. I am, however, more worried about the compatibility language, so I could live with that. Scott K
- [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Wei Chuang
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Laura Atkins
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Laura Atkins
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Jon Callas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Jon Callas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Laura Atkins
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Jim Fenton
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Scott Kitterman
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Barry Leiba
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Wei Chuang
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Evan Burke
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Todd Herr
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Todd Herr
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Wei Chuang
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Wei Chuang
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Wei Chuang
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering Michael Thomas