Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered harmful
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Tue, 07 May 2019 21:13 UTC
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Subject: Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered harmful
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, "iab@iab.org" <iab@iab.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
References: <F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C89F024CD3@MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com> <CALaySJJDHg5j9Z7+noS=YXoNROqdsbJ6coEECtLtbJ6fWJ3xsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAA=duU1TxZx9W8huPp5md25Wf+9=f50WYGpU=Bb1OQ+OdF6k6A@mail.gmail.com> <6569841c-4de7-01c4-0326-9419b453988c@nostrum.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2019 17:13:20 -0400
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I note that both Adam and Barry in their emails talk about this being particularly applicable at the upper layers. Except that is not what the document says. If you want to write a document about application protocols, then the applications area can have the discussion. But this document does not say that. So in addition to seconding the comments from several other people, I would ask that the document be aligned with what the supporters say it is about. Yours, Joel On 5/7/19 5:00 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 5/7/19 3:48 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> I don't agree that poor application programming is a result of the >> Postel principle, it's a result of incompetence or laziness. > > > For better or worse, significant portions of the Internet -- at least at > the application layer -- run on what you're calling incompetence and/or > laziness [1] . The question is: to what degree has Postel's Principle > contributed to this state of affairs; and, if we think it's a major > factor, can we change things so that future protocols don't suffer from > this as much? > > To be clear, I'm not reading this as trying to put the genie back in the > bottle for already-deployed protocols like SMTP. I read this as > suggesting that maybe future protocols should be a bit more picky about > not accepting messages that are malformed or sequences of messages that > are unorthodox, even if some degree of processing is technically possible. > > /a > > ____ > [1] More generously, they're probably more the result of things like > cutting corners to meet deadlines and budgets, when the people cutting > corners suffer no consequences for the resulting protocol pollution. > >
- RE: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Barry Leiba
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Barry Leiba
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Warren Kumari
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Tony Li
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Stephen Farrell
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Adam Roach
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Salz, Rich
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Adam Roach
- Re: [IAB] [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle… Christian Huitema
- Re: [IAB] [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] [IAB] deprecating Postel's principle… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Christian Huitema
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Mark Andrews
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Martin Thomson
- Re: [arch-d] [IAB] deprecating Postel's principle… Randy Bush
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Masataka Ohta
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Dave Cridland
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Jari Arkko
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… John C Klensin
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Paul Wouters
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Dave Cridland
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Dave Cridland
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Bless, Roland (TM)
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Paul Wouters
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… John Levine
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Keith Moore
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Keith Moore
- Re: deprecating Postel's principle- considered ha… John C Klensin
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Martin Thomson
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Eliot Lear
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Eliot Lear
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Aaron Falk
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- cons… Henry S. Thompson