Re: Sergeant-at-arms engagement model

[Nico Williams <[e-mail]>]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 08:39:10AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> I appreciate this effort, but I do have some doubts about:
> 
> > ...file GitHub issues or send us email at < [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> > with your feedback.
> 
> as feedback mechanisms for what is genuinely a topic for everyone on
> this list. So I prefer to comment here. Also I hope we'll see the
> final version on the ietf.org site.

I'm guessing they were hoping to keep this from exploding on list.  With
all the controversy we've had, that seems optimistic.  In any case, this
discussion does have to happen on-list.

> There's a basic issue that should probably be recognised somehow in
> the text: in the end, *all* decisions in this area are subjective.
> unprofessional-commentary.md attempts to define the subjective term
> "unprofessional" but relies on various subjective terms:  insulting,
> excessively hostile (BTW, that implies that some amount of hostility
> is OK), hurtful, disruptive. I think we already have evidence that

Some amount of hostility has to be OK.  Especially when the leadership
and/or the SAAs themselves behave questionably.

I hope we won't be seeing any more cases of ADs being reprimanded
off-list while non-leadership participants get reprimanded on-list.
That sort of thing will send hostility through the roof, exactly as it
should, and indeed, has.

> people disagree about the threshold for these terms. So like it or
> not, the judgment is in the end subjective (and that's why, IMHO, it's
> good that we have an SAA team rather than an individual).
> 
> A nit while I'm here: doxxing really isn't a subset of violence. It's
> a different category of unacceptable.

We should be careful not promote unacceptable behavior to the status
"violence" when it isn't.  Doxxing certainly can lead to credible
threats of immediate violence, which isn't far from "violence", and
definitely at the "threatening violence" stage.  Still, it would be
shocking to ever have that kind of event happen on our lists or physical
meetings (if it has and I was not aware of it, well, let me know and
consider me shocked).

Nico
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