Re: הנדון: RE: Last Call:<draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernetbased OAM) to Informational RFC

[Alia Atlas <[e-mail]>]

Considering that the need for this code point is a result of the ITU
not fully complying with the IETF agreement, I cannot agree that we
should simply allocate a code point for whatever the ITU wants to do
in the future.

It seems the best of the options to allocate a code point (much better
than squatting) - but tie it to a stable reference.  If the ITU can't
provide a stable reference, then perhaps an RFC is the best way.
There are lots of folks with opinions on the best procedure, but I
certainly don't support the idea of not restricting the usage to what
is clearly defined.

Alia

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:04 AM, D'Alessandro Alessandro Gerardo
<[e-mail]> wrote:
> Dear all,
> Wrt draft-betts, I believe it is appropriate to allocate a code point for the referenced specification without any restriction about the possibility to evolve messages/protocols when compatibility is preserved. It is not only unnecessary but it does not help in improving the relationship between the two SDOs.
>
> Best regards,
> Alessandro
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Telecom Italia
> Alessandro Gerardo D'Alessandro
> Transport Innovation
> Via Reiss Romoli, 274 - 10148 Torino
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>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: t.petch [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Inviato: mercoledì 14 marzo 2012 11:56
> A: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); ext Ross Callon
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Oggetto: Re: הנדון: RE: Last Call:<draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernetbased OAM) to Informational RFC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <[e-mail]>
> To: "Andrew G. Malis" <[e-mail]>; "ext Ross Callon"
> <[e-mail]>
> Cc: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:09 PM
> Subject: הנדון: RE: Last
> Call:<draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernetbased OAM) to Informational RFC
>
>
> Ross,
> i am afraid that you missed the point. There will not be a final version since as written in draft-betts, all  ITU recommendations are subject to revisions, and the code point will also be used for future revisions of the document. New messages/protocols can be defined in future revisions of the recommendation and they will use the same code point that is allocated for the first version.
> This is a real issue.
> Regards,
> Nurit
> -----הודעה מקורית-----
> מאת: ext Ross Callon
> נשלח:  13/03/2012, 19:27
> אל: Andrew G. Malis; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> עותק: [e-mail]
> נושא: RE: Last Call:<draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernetbased OAM) to Informational RFC I agree that the allocation of a code point should be to a specific version of 8113.1,
>
> <tp>
> Why?
>
> I can understand a new code point being required if there is a new and backwards incompatible format for the messages, but if the messages are extended in a forwards compatible manner, adding new TLV for example, or a new format of IF_ID, then why should we burn a new code point?
>
> Would you say that we should have a dozen different port numbers for HTTP to reflect its evolution over time?  If not, why not?
>
> Demanding that the ITU-T come back to us for a new round of negotiation when it is technically unnecessary seems to be placing an unnecessary barrier between the two SDOs.
>
> Tom Petch
>
> and specifically should be to the final version that is approved by the ITU-T (assuming that a final version of 8113.1 will be approved by the ITU-T). This would imply that draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point should contain a normative reference to the final approved version of 8113.1.
>
> Given normal IETF processes, this implies that the final RFC resulting from draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point could be published as soon as the final version of 8113.1 is approved (with the understanding that there will be a small normal delay between "approved" and "published" which gives time for coordination). Given that the final version of 8113.1 might need to reference the RFC resulting from draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point, a bit of cooperation might be needed between editorial staff at the ITU and RFC editorial staff, but I don't see why this should be a problem (I am sure that they all have access to email).
>
> Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:54 PM
> To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>(Allocationof
> an Associated Channel Code Point for Use byITU-T Ethernetbased OAM) to Informational RFC
>
> I would like to support Nurit's comments below. In particular, in the past the ITU-T has expanded upon or changed the usage of IETF codepoint allocations, in some cases incompatibly with its original usage or definition. In the future, all codepoint allocations to the ITU-T should be tied to one specific, dated revision of their specification only. This is similar to the ITU-T's own processes, such as section 2.2.1 of Rec. A.5, which requires a version number and/or date for referenced outside documents in ITU-T recommendations.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
> HaSharon) <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot support the publication of the document in its current version.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have the following concerns:
>>
>>
>>
>> .        It is indicated that the channel is intended to be used to carry
>> Ethernet based OAM messages. It is not clear why there is a need for ACH.
>> PWs can be used to transmit Ethernet OAM.
>>
>> If the intention is to use the channel for OAM messages for operating
>> MPLS-TP based networks, the IETF *already* defined a solution for
>> MPLS-TP OAM and I expect to see first a technical *justification* why
>> a second solution is needed. In addition, I would expect to see
>> *references to the
>> arguments* raised in draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-considerations.
>>
>>
>>
>> .        It is not clear what the maturity status of G.8113.1 is. It seems
>> that the document was not approved by SG15 and the discussion was
>> deferred to WTSA. This indicates that there is *no consensus* for the
>> approval of G.8113.1. A code point should not be allocated before a
>> consensus/decision is reached in the ITU-T and before the document is
>> mature and approved. I do not think it is appropriate to allocate a
>> code point and try to force a resolution in the ITU-T.
>>
>>
>>
>> .        I find a contradiction in the draft. In one place it is mentioned:
>> "These Ethernet based OAM messages and procedures, address the OAM
>> functional requirements defined in [RFC5860]. Other message types
>> should not be carried behind this code point." In another place it is
>> mentioned: "all ITU-T Recommendations are subject to revision.
>> Therefore, the code point allocated by this document may be used for future versions of [G.8113.1].".
>> The last statement opens the door for the definition of additional
>> messages in G.8113.1 in the following versions, for example, for APS
>> (supporting linear or ring protection mechanisms) and by this creates
>> two solutions for other mechanisms as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> The use of the code point can go much beyond its original purpose and
>> it will hide other messages....a code point should not be allocated at
>> this point at all, but specifically not for unknown usage that may be
>> defined in future versions of G.8113.1.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Nurit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:ietf-announce-
>>
>>> [e-mail]] On Behalf Of The IESG
>>
>>> Sent: 22 February 2012 15:13
>>
>>> To: IETF-Announce
>>
>>> Subject: Last Call: <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt>
>>
>> (Allocation of
>>
>> an
>>
>>> Associated Channel Code Point for Use by ITU-T Ethernet based OAM) to
>>
>>> Informational RFC
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to
>>
>> consider
>>
>>> the following document:
>>
>>> - 'Allocation of an Associated Channel Code Point for Use by ITU-T
>>
>>>    Ethernet based OAM'
>>
>>>   <draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point-03.txt> as an Informational RFC
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
>>
>>> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to
>>> the
>>
>>> [e-mail] mailing lists by 2012-03-21. Exceptionally, comments
>>> may
>>
>> be
>>
>>> sent to [e-mail] instead. In either case, please retain the
>>
>>> beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Abstract
>>
>>>
>>
>>>    This document assigns an Associated Channel Type code point for
>>
>>>    carrying Ethernet based Operations, Administration, and Management
>>
>>>    messages in the MPLS Generic Associated Channel (G-ACh).
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The file can be obtained via
>>
>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point/
>>
>>>
>>
>>> IESG discussion can be tracked via
>>
>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-betts-itu-oam-ach-code-point/
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>> IETF-Announce mailing list
>>
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>>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>>
>>
>>
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